Maximum helpful front camber for racing? (Page 3/5)
La fiera FEB 16, 03:40 PM
The other thing you can try for now and won't cost you much is alignment. Give it a couple degrees of toe out at the front for faster initial turn in and play with the toe out at the rear to make the car pivot/snap quicker.
My set up is this:*
Front: 700lbs springs. 215/50/15. 31mm (1.25") custom splined NASCAR swaybart. Interchangeable with the rear. -1.5* camber, +.5* toe out.
Rear: 900lbs springs. 235/50/15. 38mm (1.50") custom splined NASCAR swaybart. Interchangeable with the front. 0* Camber, .+.5* toe out.
As you can see, it has no side to side or front to rear movement. This set up may look awkward but it fits my driving style perfect.
La fiera FEB 16, 03:43 PM

quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Now you've lost me. Is that a typo?

With no sway bar on the rear of a Fiero, there is understeer. Right? Adding a rear sway bar improves grip in the front, lessening and/or eliminating understeer. Right? But if the rear sway bar is too stiff, wouldn't that introduce oversteer?



Correct.
Patrick FEB 16, 03:53 PM
I found some old posts of mine that Additivewalnut may have already seen, but if not, they're relevant to this discussion.


quote
Originally posted by Patrick Here:

Keep in mind though that most, not all, but most Fiero enthusiasts say to keep the front suspension stiffer than the back... otherwise instead of balancing out the suspension (getting rid of the built-in understeer), unwanted oversteer becomes more of an issue. Therefore, on the front sway bar I've used poly bushings and zero-lash end links, whereas on the back I've used all rubber.




quote
Originally posted by Patrick Here:

I was very pleased with how the '84 handled at autocross (before I changed over to driving my Formula).

Just to clarify, there's a slight bit of difference in the diameters of the two sway bars on my '84. I had numerous front sway bars here off of various '84-'87 Fieros, and there was one that was a tiny bit thicker. I have no idea for sure which Fiero it was off of originally (I suspect it was from my '84 SE parts car), but anyways, I installed it on the front of the '84 and put the slightly thinner sway bar on the back. Worked out very well.

On my Formula (which of course came from the factory with a rear sway bar), I did the same thing with poly bushings and zero-lash end links in the front, and rubber everything in the back.




quote
Originally posted by Patrick Here:

My experience with my '84 is that prior to installing the rear sway bar, the car would want to "plow" into the corners at autocross. In other words, the car would want to continue to go relatively straight despite the steering wheel being cranked. Typical understeer.

After adding a front sway bar to the back, the car would have much more of a tendency to snap the rear end around if I wasn't careful. Typical oversteer. I learned to hit the brakes before entering a corner. Even if I felt I was still going too fast, I just went with it. The worst that would happen is that I would four-wheel drift sideways. At least I was still more or less under control. Applying brakes and/or lifting the throttle while in the corner is the best way to spin the car... not what you wish to do.


[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-17-2025).]

Additivewalnut FEB 16, 09:28 PM
Okay I think the play right now is to get as much camber as the slotted ball joints will allow, zero lash on the stock front bar, and get better at driving overall.

I'll upgrade the front bar later and see what happens, along with the adjustable control arms
La fiera FEB 17, 06:59 PM

quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

The other thing you can try for now and won't cost you much is alignment. Give it a couple degrees of toe out at the front for faster initial turn in and play with the toe out at the rear to make the car pivot/snap quicker.
My set up is this:*
Front: 700lbs springs. 215/50/15. 31mm (1.25") custom splined NASCAR swaybart. Interchangeable with the rear. -1.5* camber, +.5* toe out.
Rear: 900lbs springs. 235/50/15. 38mm (1.50") custom splined NASCAR swaybart. Interchangeable with the front. 0* Camber, .+.5* toe out.
As you can see, it has no side to side or front to rear movement. This set up may look awkward but it fits my driving style perfect.




Found this picture in my computer so you can see my swaybars.
There was a gentleman here, maybe Dennis remember his name that used to sell something similar but his were not interchangeable like mine.
olejoedad FEB 17, 07:15 PM
The very first thing the O/P needs to do is get a MATCHED SET of sway bars on the car so that the suspension is somewhere close to neutral.
He's got coilovers on it, what are the spring rates and lengths of springs?
What does he have for front springs and what are the rates?
He's got the same size tires on all four corners - what are the rim widths and tire pressures?

Throwing money after this mess isn't the answer, unless he has money to burn, which it looks like he's doing a pretty good job of.....
Additivewalnut FEB 17, 07:43 PM

quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

The very first thing the O/P needs to do is get a MATCHED SET of sway bars on the car so that the suspension is somewhere close to neutral.
He's got coilovers on it, what are the spring rates and lengths of springs?
What does he have for front springs and what are the rates?
He's got the same size tires on all four corners - what are the rim widths and tire pressures?

Throwing money after this mess isn't the answer, unless he has money to burn, which it looks like he's doing a pretty good job of.....



I wouldn't call it a mess? The car works as is, I just want to try and make it that much better. You want me to get a matched set of sway bars and then give me **** for spending money LOL
What I'm trying to figure out and haven't gotten a solid answer on is how adding a a larger front bar would help if I've still got a bit of an understeer issue. Wouldn't that make it worse?

I emailed Hiro about the spring rates, that's not on their website for some reason.
I'm running 17x7 wheels, 235/45/17 all around. 26-30 PSI up front and 32-35 rear to try and get some rotation from the rear.
87GT3800SC5SPD FEB 17, 08:52 PM
This chart below, put out by Quickor Suspension in the 90s, was part of the literature they put out to their customers. I was one of their customers then when they lowered my car and added a rear anti sway bar.

They changed the front anti sway bay at the same time, because the Fiero front anti sway bar was designed for a car without a rear anti sway bar. Anti sway bars should be a matched set that are designed to manage the characteristics of the front and rear to achieve the desired handling result. The anti sway bars for the front and rear will likely not be the same, but will be a pair of anti sway bars that will be designed to work together to stiffen or soften each end appropriately.

As the chart shows, tire pressure, camber, springs, anti sway bars and weight distribution all play a role in oversteer and understeer. Weight distribution is probably the most difficult to change, so is the logical choice to accept as complete as you start your suspension tuning journey. My Fiero weight distribution is 44% front, 56% rear. That is the same weight distribution that competition karts use as their baseline for suspension setup.

As far as how much negative camber you need, my opinion is that you need no more camber than necessary to keep the most tire contact in cornering. That can vary with tire width, stiffness, tire pressure, springs and suspension travel.



A little bit of internet research into the completion karts, will show that there is a bit of similarity in karts and Fieros, except size and body panels. Karts use shifting body weight to induce rear oversteer in cornering where Fieros do the same with off-throttle oversteer. If you add a rear anti sway bar that is too stiff, you will get quick lesson about off throttle oversteer.

This is a link to some up close view of a competition kart in action that puts some context to the term, "A Fiero handles like a go kart".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6rXSjpdLz0
La fiera FEB 17, 09:00 PM

quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

The very first thing the O/P needs to do is get a MATCHED SET of sway bars on the car so that the suspension is somewhere close to neutral.
He's got coilovers on it, what are the spring rates and lengths of springs?
What does he have for front springs and what are the rates?
He's got the same size tires on all four corners - what are the rim widths and tire pressures?

Throwing money after this mess isn't the answer, unless he has money to burn, which it looks like he's doing a pretty good job of.....




There is no "MATCHED SET" of swabars for any car that will make it rotate, they all make the cars plow.
I have a 2014 Abarth that I bough brand new just to track it when I go instruct at the track events. That thing was a handling mess. It plowed more turning left than right. I got the biggest aftermarket swaybar (22mm) available made by Neuspeed and it helped very little. To make it handle like I wanted, I did the following.
Left the stock front swaybar.
Got me a set of quality coil overs with proper spring rates and matching dampers so I could move weight around the four corners by jacking the corners accordingly.
Bought a 40mm diameter bar of solid chromoly steel and got it machined to replace the wimpy 22mm rear bar. Replaced the 42lbs battery with a 10lbs unit at the heavier corner at the front to balance it out. -2 degrees of camber with zero toe and 0 camber or toe at the rear. Replaced the 205/40/17 tires for 215/40/17, 20psi front and 35psi rear (for the track only). Now the car picks up the rear wheels weather turning left or right, it rotates amazingly at tight low speed corners and the rear just slides through high speed corners and the front is glued to the tarmac. It doesn't mater what track I go to, the set up stays the same I don't change it, it works for me.

You'll figure your car in due time. If you are inexperience driving autocross just drive it the way it is until you get more experience and get acquainted with the physics of driving. Want to learn quicker, do indoor go karting. Good luck!

The Fiero IS a go kart!
https://youtu.be/Zo5PwZ5Loh...mqTxXuHfKzE-gK&t=579

Edit to add link.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 02-17-2025).]

olejoedad FEB 17, 09:17 PM

quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


There is no "MATCHED SET" of swabars for any car that will make it rotate, they all make the cars plow.
I have a 2014 Abarth that I bough brand new just to track it when I go instruct at the track events. That thing was a handling mess. It plowed more turning left than right. I got the biggest aftermarket swaybar (22mm) available made by Neuspeed and it helped very little. To make it handle like I wanted, I did the following.
Left the stock front swaybar.
Got me a set of quality coil overs with proper spring rates and matching dampers so I could move weight around the four corners by jacking the corners accordingly.
Bought a 40mm diameter bar of solid chromoly steel and got it machined to replace the wimpy 22mm rear bar. Replaced the 42lbs battery with a 10lbs unit at the heavier corner at the front to balance it out. -2 degrees of camber with zero toe and 0 camber or toe at the rear. Replaced the 205/40/17 tires for 215/40/17, 20psi front and 35psi rear (for the track only). Now the car picks up the rear wheels weather turning left or right, it rotates amazingly at tight low speed corners and the rear just slides through high speed corners and the front is glued to the tarmac. It doesn't mater what track I go to, the set up stays the same I don't change it, it works for me.

You'll figure your car in due time. If you are inexperience driving autocross just drive it the way it is until you get more experience and get acquainted with the physics of driving. Want to learn quicker, do indoor go karting. Good luck!




That worked for you on the Abarth.
What worked for me on my 86 Fiero SE was 400# springs on all 4 corners and the Fiero Store sway bars - matched set, a GT rack for faster steering and staggered tire sizes.
It ran mid pack time with race prepped Corvettes in autocross.
It rotated very well in turns, the center of rotation was under my right elbow.

What neither of us know about the O/P's setup is after what change to the car did it start pushing?

Your advice to him about more seat time in the car on the track is good, just as my advice to him on a setup to balance the car to eliminate the pushing.

Hopefully he will take both sets of advice and end up enjoying his car.

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 02-17-2025).]