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| GM High Value LZ9 Swap? (Page 3/11) |
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Will
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AUG 16, 11:24 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by ChuckR:
Will, for mounting the LZ9 in the cradle would I be correct in the assumption that the LZ9 will bolt to my stock TH125 transmission? I do not plan to use this trans mission, but I am thinking that if I leave it bolted in the cradle then bolt the LZ9 to it that will help in locating engine placement. Then once I have the motor mounts fabbed up and connected I can unbolt the TH125 and bolt up the 4T65E in its place and fabbing the trans mounts, thus keeping the original engine / trans locations and alignment.
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There are bolt-in 4T65E mounts from WCF, and maybe other vendors that will let you locate the 4T65E right off the bat, then just locate the engine mount bracket and drill any required holes.[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-16-2019).]
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ChuckR
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AUG 16, 12:39 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Will:
There are bolt-in 4T65E mounts from WCF, and maybe other vendors that will let you locate the 4T65E right off the bat, then just locate the engine mount bracket and drill any required holes.
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If there are already mounts for this transmission is there already a tried and true axle? Thank you for that great info!
Edit:
I found these on WCF
https://westcoastfiero.com/...to-4t60-e-and-4t65-e
Is there a more economical version? I havent looked into it yet but 250 a side sounds incredibly expensive considering most CV are around 70 bucks for standards.[This message has been edited by ChuckR (edited 08-16-2019).]
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ChuckR
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AUG 16, 09:48 PM
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Ok I am looking around at options and I don't want to be lazy and just ask questions and have someone else give an answer.but I am finding I just don't know where to look to find my answers.
Here are my next 3 questions:
Are the LZ9 internals strong enough for turbo charging. I was kind of looking at some exhaust mounted options since there isn't far to go so a lot of the downfalls to rear mounted turbos are not as applicable. I know they are present still but not as bad since it is all in the same place.
Where do I look to find this kind of information?
Has anyone used something like this
https://www.drivetrain.com/...Z9LfDQhehkYWyKCyzaSY
What are the drawbacks and are there better options out there?
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wftb
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AUG 16, 10:15 PM
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In the old days, like 30 years ago, a turbo engine needed forged pistons, forged rods and a cast iron block to survive turbocharging. Now all you need is modern electronic controls. Modern OBD2 ECM's monitor what is going on inside an engine thousands a time a second. They adjust fuel flow, timing and monitor coolant temps and air intake tempurature and make on the fly adjustments. And they wil do this even if the ECM was not on a turbo car to begin with. Spending a ton of money on internal upgrades is mostly a waste of time and money. You can turbo just about anything.
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Will
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AUG 17, 12:03 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by ChuckR:
If there are already mounts for this transmission is there already a tried and true axle? Thank you for that great info!
Edit:
I found these on WCF
https://westcoastfiero.com/...to-4t60-e-and-4t65-e
Is there a more economical version? I havent looked into it yet but 250 a side sounds incredibly expensive considering most CV are around 70 bucks for standards.
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Axles would be assembled the same way as with a 3800 swap using that transmission.
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ChuckR
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AUG 19, 03:09 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by wftb:
In the old days, like 30 years ago, a turbo engine needed forged pistons, forged rods and a cast iron block to survive turbocharging. Now all you need is modern electronic controls. Modern OBD2 ECM's monitor what is going on inside an engine thousands a time a second. They adjust fuel flow, timing and monitor coolant temps and air intake tempurature and make on the fly adjustments. And they wil do this even if the ECM was not on a turbo car to begin with. Spending a ton of money on internal upgrades is mostly a waste of time and money. You can turbo just about anything. |
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You can turbo about anything, that doesn't mean that you don't need to worry about internals. If you put 20 PSI of boost on non forged stock internals you can break things, fast. The engines today are all high compression compared to the old days. Though the 3.9 is lower than a lot of others now days at 9.8:1. With a 9.8:1 ratio you can run more boost than say a 12:1, but I am trying to figure out how much boost I can safely run if i wanted to. if the internals are forged like a LE5 Ecotec then it is capable of taking FI better than if they are just standard.
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wftb
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AUG 19, 04:02 PM
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Forged internals are always better of course but I am always amazed at how modern controls will keep everything from blowing apart. With the help of bigger injectors, HP tuners and a water meth injection kit, I ran 11 psi of boost in a stock 2.2 L61 ecotec without damage. The engine I run now has 10.5:1 compression ratio and I run the same amount of boost but it does have forged pistons and rods. I added even larger injectors (44lbs) and the watermeth set up became redundant so I no longer run it. I also got rid of my FMU because it was interfering with the ecm. The FMU would raise fuel pressure under boost and then the computer would dial back the injectors, so it became redundant too. Meanwhile, this was overworking the fuel pump. And I blew 2 of those.
I have no intention of running 20 psi. The engine is running strong enough for me and there are a few things that would prevent 20 psi anyway. The plastic LE5 intake manifold I run will split at 20 psi. The biggest mistake I made was using a 2" exhaust on my setup. I thought it would be big enough with my new mufflerless setup but it starved the turbo and it would not rev over 6500. After a month of chasing my tail around tuning I scrapped the 2" exhaust and replaced it with 2.5" piping and then I got my 7000 revs back. It could use a 3" exhaust but I can't be bothered, and room for that is tight.
I follow all the engine build threads on here and a lot of them are just about a lot of money blown and blown engines. A lot of fun to read about but really not very productive. Some of them have never run. My advice always is to see what you can get out of a low mileage stock motor and then decide how deep you want to go.------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms
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ChuckR
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AUG 19, 06:36 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by wftb:
Forged internals are always better of course but I am always amazed at how modern controls will keep everything from blowing apart. With the help of bigger injectors, HP tuners and a water meth injection kit, I ran 11 psi of boost in a stock 2.2 L61 ecotec without damage. The engine I run now has 10.5:1 compression ratio and I run the same amount of boost but it does have forged pistons and rods. I added even larger injectors (44lbs) and the watermeth set up became redundant so I no longer run it. I also got rid of my FMU because it was interfering with the ecm. The FMU would raise fuel pressure under boost and then the computer would dial back the injectors, so it became redundant too. Meanwhile, this was overworking the fuel pump. And I blew 2 of those.
I have no intention of running 20 psi. The engine is running strong enough for me and there are a few things that would prevent 20 psi anyway. The plastic LE5 intake manifold I run will split at 20 psi. The biggest mistake I made was using a 2" exhaust on my setup. I thought it would be big enough with my new mufflerless setup but it starved the turbo and it would not rev over 6500. After a month of chasing my tail around tuning I scrapped the 2" exhaust and replaced it with 2.5" piping and then I got my 7000 revs back. It could use a 3" exhaust but I can't be bothered, and room for that is tight.
I follow all the engine build threads on here and a lot of them are just about a lot of money blown and blown engines. A lot of fun to read about but really not very productive. Some of them have never run. My advice always is to see what you can get out of a low mileage stock motor and then decide how deep you want to go.
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Yes! This is why I was asking about what the stock is on this engine and what it can handle. I have no intention of ever going to 20 PSI boost. I was just throwing that out there as an example. I think for my purposes if I do this motor and if I boost, it will be low numbers 6-8 psi.
On your exhaust at 2.5" from all the research I did on the Ecotec Miata, those engines need the 3" and it was a problem for many of the Miata guys without going to the V8roadsters subframe to fit it through. I was really close to going Miata before I found my Fiero. I am glad I did find the Fiero. The Miata is a wonderful car, but it doesnt fit me. I am a bit too fat and have just a touch of redneck, I did have a mullet in the 80's... Although i was too little to pick for myself a hairstyle.
I honestly would prefer a SC to a turbo for the low rev power/ no lag. I know that it robs power to make power, but it is more linear power. I would love to do a Vortech head unit (centrifugal) but they dont make a kit for the 3900. Turbos are cheaper too, much cheaper. I think I would pass on meth injection as it seems more involved to get it running and probably overkill for my wants. I would instead do an air to air intercooler if there is room in the engine bay. Joseph found room so I know it is there.
Again this is all hypothetical since I am just in research stages. Most likely I will just go with a standard install to start with. K.I.S.S. I think with Will pointing out the trans mount kits for the 4T65E on westcoastfiero.com and the how to build instructions on Ryan's page for the shafts I am heavily leaning toward this LZ9. Hiwil sent me pictures of his car and a nice dyno sheet showing 213 WHP and 225 WTQ so I know what it will run at the wheels bone stock. Looks like there is only some light modification needed to keep the AC compressor and the hinge box delete to make room for the alternator, and motor mounts of coarse. Then the copious amounts of wiring. Then enjoy that for a while, I mean it will double the WHP bone stock and I know I will be happy with that for at least a year or 2. Then once I have all the bugs worked out I can complicate the build a bit more by adding the turbo and maybe get to my goal HP of 300 WHP ( around 375 at crank.)
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ChuckR
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AUG 22, 08:05 PM
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Well this isnt swap related but I wanted to share and it doesnt warrant a new thread....
I was just gifted a set of these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B...ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
LED head lights, it was on my amazon wish list as something I thought was kinda cool, and might one day buy.... maybe. Well now I have them. I will let you all know if they are any good once I install them and get the turn signals and DRL wired in. I will run the DRL to the parking lamp and use as a halo instead of DRL.
Cheers!
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ChuckR
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AUG 23, 09:42 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqEg7Iav-5w
Here is a short video of how they look. They give great light, needs a bit of adjustment. Focus is lower than stock.[This message has been edited by ChuckR (edited 08-23-2019).]
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