Starter Upgrade....Very Worth It (Page 2/2)
theogre APR 10, 01:03 AM

quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I did this mod, for weight reasons. Here are my old notes:

Stock starter: 14 lbs
Reduction Starter: 8 lbs

I measured that both the stock starter and reduction starter turned over my 2.8 at 180 to 190 RPM; no difference in cranking speed.

Jason, if you noticed a difference, maybe your stock starter was already on its last legs. Or maybe my reduction unit sucked?

Old starter, old solenoid and/or old battery cables can cause "the slows" just from "wearing out" but Just 1 iffy cable connection or starter mounting hardware can do same. So as a review, this is useless like many other "Upgrades."

Many new straight starters are lighter then all 30+ year old factory starter not just GM even tho same overall dimensions. Like Many companies have better methods of winding and insulating a coil to give same or more power. Many tweak core material too so may look same to you but isn't. That and others can save some weight.

Few pounds lighter anywhere on the motor won't matter. Not for HP or MPG unless maybe you average years of driving.
Worse many people put more weight elsewhere and often Does matter like "brake upgrades" that adds Unsprung weight to the suspension and/or overloaded the car w/ heavy people or junk everywhere. Junk in the Trunk is a big issue for Fiero because all trunk weight is Behind the Rear Axle. 100# or more there can effectively lighten the front axle making big handling problems. Many have 100+ in the trunk then add 100+ tongue weight trailer too and wonder why car handles like crap and HL are "Dim."
Hell... Many install heavy engine and trans have legally overloaded the car just w/ a small driver and nothing else but Cops don't weigh most cars. (Cops only go by what data is publish and posted in the vehicle as GVWR by the factory. Many pickup trunk owners get stopped from crap in the bed and/or towing too much weight. Aftermarket suspension and other parts to load up more does not matter either. May make more problems causing higher fines or worse when wrecked.)
Spadesluck APR 10, 01:22 AM
Ogre, for me the only thing that changed was the starter. My front mount battery and cables where reused. Bolted everything the same to the new starter.

[This message has been edited by Spadesluck (edited 04-10-2019).]

Shho13 APR 10, 09:58 AM
I did this upgrade myself several years ago and the difference in startup is amazing. The starter is still working well, knock on wood. No shims were needed and the install was super easy as the starter is so much smaller than the old one.

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theogre APR 10, 07:48 PM

quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:
Ogre, for me the only thing that changed was the starter. My front mount battery and cables where reused. Bolted everything the same to the new starter.

Should have posted this in first post. Few know or follow every user and mod done.

Side Note: FM battery can have problem even if part are new so data doesn't help a whole lot because Long lines etc can have more voltage drop vs OE setup and any new starter may hide this. Low volts can wreck any motor over short or long haul depending just how bad the problem is.
See my Cave, Electric Motors

General I like using a better starter but many New gear head starters have weak gears as said by viperine. Big problem is no-one will tell you is use plastic gears or not before you buy.
armos APR 11, 10:54 AM
Regardless of whether it has any other advantages, the modern gear reduction starter swap is kind of appealing just because it's a bit lighter and smaller.
But I'm mildly hung up on the silly aesthetic side of it. I've had the old starter sound for so long that the sound of a modern starter on this car would be weird to me, like I'm starting a 2003 Civic or something. I admit it's kind of silly to care though.
Anyway, my original starter still works fine, and I have a backup from my old car that also works, so I'll probably never end up needing to buy one.

I remember heat soak problems being often discussed on the old Fiero newsgroup ~1999-2000, where people talked about shielding it with tin cans or something. Starter heat soak has also come up on this forum a fair bit, but in all that time I've still never experienced it. I guess I've been lucky, but the OE starters have been ultra reliable for me.
theogre APR 11, 06:45 PM

quote
Originally posted by armos:
I remember heat soak problems being often discussed on the old Fiero newsgroup ~1999-2000, where people talked about shielding it with tin cans or something. Starter heat soak has also come up on this forum a fair bit, but in all that time I've still never experienced it. I guess I've been lucky, but the OE starters have been ultra reliable for me.

Heat soak problems are not just problems w/ Fiero. Any vehicle of any brand can have this problem.
Most Fiero have heat shield(s) on the exhaust but rusted out and shield fell off. Example: Many l4 had 1 on the down pipe to the cat to prevent heating the solenoid. 84-86 w/ Thermac stove on the E manifold to heat air to TBI helps shield the starter too.
Some had them on the starter and same happened. For most replacing missing shield is easier to shield starter from exhaust put leave space so engine heat get out and doesn't heat the starter assem.

Heat, mostly from exhaust parts, get to the Motor, Solenoid, or Both.
Heat causes high resistance in coil windings and/or changes clearance for things like the solenoid "piston" and won't move when hot.
Heat is in 2 form here...
Heat air then heat whatever. Driving will "upset" this as air moves and have cooler air flowing over parts. Or have fans/blower like V6 engine blower.
IR heating and not affected by driving unless you have cool air moving to fight this. Blocking/reflecting IR heating is the main job for simple metal heat shield. Metal w/ small air gap will make a big difference in temperature of part(s) to protect.

l4 Fiero used a bigger "pebble bed" cat but V6 w/ small cat still heats everything over it after shutdown and can heat soak the starter too. Worse when you have problems making the cat overheat from running too rich/lean, burning oil or coolant, too much Zinc (often as "ZZP") in the oil or gas, etc.

I had this happen to last starter when I had to make quick visits to stores and starter didn't have time to cool, got heat soak from the cat, or likely both. Finally happen last time and won't start until completely cooled off after 1+ hr.
Now have a shield make of roof flashing aluminum on the starter and have no problem in 5+ years. Is just wrapped over the solenoid then held by starter shim and 1 bolt holding dirt shield on bottom of AT bell housing.
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La fiera APR 11, 10:36 PM
That's the same starter I use. Good choice!
RayOtton APR 12, 07:55 AM
I also changed to a new lightweight starter a couple of years ago as part of a weight reduction program.

In all I was able to take about 80lbs out of the car without any reduction in comfort or function.

I do agree that the starter sound is not as pleasing as the old unit.
longjonsilver APR 12, 09:15 AM

quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I did this mod, for weight reasons. Here are my old notes:

Stock starter: 14 lbs
Reduction Starter: 8 lbs





quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Many new straight starters are lighter then all 30+ year old factory starter not just GM even tho same overall dimensions.... That and others can save some weight.

Few pounds lighter anywhere on the motor won't matter.... Junk in the Trunk is a big issue for Fiero because all trunk weight is Behind the Rear Axle. 100# or more there can effectively lighten the front axle making big handling problems. Hell... Many install heavy engine and trans have legally overloaded the car just w/ a small driver ....



Ogre: you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. First you say that some starters can save you some weight, then you say that a few pounds on the motor won't matter, then you say that trunk weight affects the handling, then you say that some people install heavy engine and trans and are overloaded.

So which is it? Should we save weight on the starter or not?

Lighter weight will not only affect acceleration but handling as well. Especially weight in the rear of the car. People like me that enjoy a balanced car that comes in and out of a four wheel drift in a predictable and controlled manner understand that weight in the rear adds to oversteer problems. i have taken the battery out of the rear and put it under the passenger headlight. i have a three cored radiator and i removed the compressor for the AC. All of these mods have made my car perform better in a corner. Some of them have also made it perform better at speed on the highway (especially the radiator vent mod, as is well documented on this forum). Even moving the battery from the spare tire position to under the passenger headlight has made a noticeable difference.

There are a billion words spilled on this forum about horsepower, but precious few written about weight saving. Then when someone wants to save weight, they get criticized. Give me a break

olejoedad APR 12, 10:55 AM
I don't think our friend the ogre is 'talking out of both sides of his mouth'.

I would suggest that he is simply pointing out various facts to help people decide how various modifications may affect their car's performance, handling and safety.