Returning Fiero Owner - Let's Talk 2.8 Breathing (Page 11/14)
La fiera APR 14, 08:37 PM

quote
Originally posted by sourmash:

That's great to know and something I can draw myself into on some things. But rethinking for my first 3.4 I''m going to back up and not go with CNC porting. I'll intake mod, TB swap, header & cam.

But curious about cams I was just perusing Crower's site and found their mechanical tappet cam with 212/216 duration for $67. lol, yes 67 dollars. The 236/242 duration cam is $222.

https://www.crower.com/camshafts.html?cat=1183



Those cams you quoted are mechanical cams. That's a whole new level of performance.
Comparing a mechanical to a hydraulic is usually a 10 degrees difference @.050 with the hydralic having 10 degrees over the mechanical for a fair comparison.
For example, my 304WHP 3.4 has a 244@.050 mechanical cam. If I was to use a hydraulic it'll be at 254@.050 hydraulic.
Modesto APR 16, 01:25 AM
I'm going to be honest, I haven't read all 100 posts on this thread, but I was just thinking how simple (albeit time consuming) of a solution it would be to just 3d print an intake. I've got a decent amount of experience in 3d modeling, and you could really maximize plenum size, dictate what size runners you wanted (as they would be printed internally, you would need to balance them with plenum volume) and even set it up for a much larger throttle body.

Of course the awesome "Fiero" could be retained or even replace it with the bird logo thing if you wanted to be unique. Am I missing something? Once the model was completed minor changes would be easy and I think they would be relatively inexpensive to print (especially compared to custom intake fabrication and modification). The weight savings would be nice too.
La fiera APR 16, 08:13 AM

quote
Originally posted by Modesto:

I'm going to be honest, I haven't read all 100 posts on this thread, but I was just thinking how simple (albeit time consuming) of a solution it would be to just 3d print an intake. I've got a decent amount of experience in 3d modeling, and you could really maximize plenum size, dictate what size runners you wanted (as they would be printed internally, you would need to balance them with plenum volume) and even set it up for a much larger throttle body.

Of course the awesome "Fiero" could be retained or even replace it with the bird logo thing if you wanted to be unique. Am I missing something? Once the model was completed minor changes would be easy and I think they would be relatively inexpensive to print (especially compared to custom intake fabrication and modification). The weight savings would be nice too.



I thought about that for a while but I personally have no experience on 3D modeling.
I believe with this technology would be much cheaper to build them also. I have several manifolds designs on paper!

Modesto, send me PM so we can talk more. Maybe you can help me to make my ideas into reality!
ericjon262 APR 16, 01:53 PM

quote
Originally posted by Modesto:

I'm going to be honest, I haven't read all 100 posts on this thread, but I was just thinking how simple (albeit time consuming) of a solution it would be to just 3d print an intake. I've got a decent amount of experience in 3d modeling, and you could really maximize plenum size, dictate what size runners you wanted (as they would be printed internally, you would need to balance them with plenum volume) and even set it up for a much larger throttle body.

Of course the awesome "Fiero" could be retained or even replace it with the bird logo thing if you wanted to be unique. Am I missing something? Once the model was completed minor changes would be easy and I think they would be relatively inexpensive to print (especially compared to custom intake fabrication and modification). The weight savings would be nice too.



Problem is that most materials used in 3d printing aren't very well suited to the harsh environment posed by a running engine.

lots of vibration
temperature transients
exposure to solvents or corrosive chemicals

and typically the prints themselves end up porous, with lackluster sealing to the engine (or lower intake ect)

That being said, a 3D printed manifold does serve a useful purpose, in the case of prototyping, it can be made relatively easily, and test fit on the vehicle, without a ridiculous cash outlay.

taking that a step further, we could then set the printed part in plaster, and once the plaster has cured, burn the printed material out and cast the intake from aluminum, or another more well suited material.

Please don't take this to mean plastic can't be made into an intake, OEM's use plastic intakes, and they work great, they just don't 3D print them.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 04-16-2020).]

Notorio APR 16, 04:45 PM

quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Problem is that most materials used in 3d printing aren't very well suited to the harsh environment posed by a running engine.

lots of vibration
temperature transients
exposure to solvents or corrosive chemicals

and typically the prints themselves end up porous, with lackluster sealing to the engine (or lower intake ect)

That being said, a 3D printed manifold does serve a useful purpose, in the case of prototyping, it can be made relatively easily, and test fit on the vehicle, without a ridiculous cash outlay.

taking that a step further, we could then set the printed part in plaster, and once the plaster has cured, burn the printed material out and cast the intake from aluminum, or another more well suited material.

Please don't take this to mean plastic can't be made into an intake, OEM's use plastic intakes, and they work great, they just don't 3D print them.



Coming from a background of 2d and 3d printing I looked into this last year and concluded more or less the same thing: 3D printing to prototype but then 3D printing to make the molds to be used for casting in Aluminum. Why? 3D printing is too expensive for production long-term, at least at this point. Selling cast Aluminum is the cheapest path forward to an affordable intake. You'd still need someone to finance the project and probably more than 10 final units to sell to recover costs.

Here is an up-to-date look at metal 3D printers Best Metal 3D Printers in 2020
ericjon262 APR 16, 09:26 PM

quote
Originally posted by Notorio:


Coming from a background of 2d and 3d printing I looked into this last year and concluded more or less the same thing: 3D printing to prototype but then 3D printing to make the molds to be used for casting in Aluminum. Why? 3D printing is too expensive for production long-term, at least at this point. Selling cast Aluminum is the cheapest path forward to an affordable intake. You'd still need someone to finance the project and probably more than 10 final units to sell to recover costs.

Here is an up-to-date look at metal 3D printers Best Metal 3D Printers in 2020



well, in my suggestion the 3d print would be consumable, so the manifold, while being repeatable, would be more of a one off part. Realistically, producing an aftermarket intake manifold for the Fiero is not something likely to be profitable by any stretch of the imagination, as the manifold would cost at a minimum $300-400 , and that amount of money goes a long way towards a 3800, so your average Fiero owner won't even consider it.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

Notorio APR 16, 10:39 PM
Could be. My thought was folks would spring for $300-400 whereas the $500-600 price point is getting dicey.

Was just looking at the Edelbrock web site and they are doing 3D prototyping and casting just down the road from me. Edelbrock R&D
Modesto APR 16, 10:58 PM
I think the primary advantage of the printed manifold whether metal or composite (I know they are developing new filaments all the time so one suitable for this application is bound to come up at some point) would be in retaining the stock appearance while increasing performance in a variety of applications like 3.4 hybrid swaps, etc. Someone with a stock 2.8 probably wouldn't have need or interest. In any event I agree, no way it would be profitable.
ericjon262 APR 17, 01:55 PM

quote
Originally posted by Notorio:

Could be. My thought was folks would spring for $300-400 whereas the $500-600 price point is getting dicey.

Was just looking at the Edelbrock web site and they are doing 3D prototyping and casting just down the road from me. Edelbrock R&D



Not to be a buzzkill, but there's no way something like this comes in at the $300-400 price point, the amount of work required is intense. especially for something as complicated as an intake manifold.

the big picture steps:

3D print
Set it in plaster
Burn the plastic out
Acquire the metal for the pour
Prep the furnace
Firing up the furnace melting enough metal to account for shrink and cavity fill after degassing.
Clean the raw casting,
inspect the raw casting
machine the casting
inspect the machine work

that's all before you even get the first dime. the only way you don't lose money on something like this is if you're retired, and have all of the tools, equipment, and knowledge to do it all yourself, it's a major effort.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

jjd2296 APR 17, 03:42 PM
that's why I went this route. still cost about 325 usd


quote
Originally posted by jjd2296:

I’m doing this