Welding recommendations request (Page 1/2)
SteveMushynsky DEC 08, 07:32 PM
Greetings, all.

One of the skills I will need to become reasonably proficient in to accomplish my LHU/F35 Fiero swap is welding. I could lean on my son and his father-in-law, a professional welder for decades, but I'd rather tackle as much as I can myself before reaching out to them if I need to.

My objective: Cutting and fabricating transmission and engine mounts as needed. I expect to use interim-adaptors for already-available F23 transmission and Ecotech motors. These will be bolted at one end to the available mount (such as those from ZZP) to keep decent vibration mold, and to the subframe as needed. I mat also need to cut some notches in and add some bracing to the subframe to fit the engine and transmission as needed.

Questions:

- What thickness plate steel is recommended for creating these supports, with or without strengthening bends?

- Given recommended steel thickness, what type and capacity welding equipment is recommended?

I appreciate any advice on this as anyone may wish to offer. Thank you.


------------------
Steve Mushynsky

1984 Fiero 2M4
34K miles

1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor now)
Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.

1987 Fiero
Tried to kill me (gone to a 'better place')
Prior owner failed to tighten a bolt. Trailing arm separated at 70 mph

theogre DEC 09, 12:21 AM
Is not as simple as your 2 Q. Ask your family why.
Even bolted to OE frame/cradle is often not a simple as drill new holes is them. Sometime you have to add strength by adding big washers or even add "Fish plates" to spread a load for a given load(s) or frame/cradle can fail often at worse times even cause a wreck.

Is why Seat belts mount points, Strut's top hats, and others have big washers etc so bolts can't pull out and other problems.

IOW Nubes welding, worse Nubes using cheap equipment from HF and many others, for important car parts is Not a good plan.
Even when they weld on noncritical parts often blow holes, warp the parts, and more all at same time.

Poor welds that Nube's will make consist of number of things and whole libraries written for welding on every type and equipment used.

That's on top of bolting/welding to car's frame etc that often have big corrosion problems. I've seen many cars in NY and other states w/ frames rotted inside out. Is very common the frames look good outside but inside is so weak to the point frame will fail causing many problem and worse. I suggest you have the whole car check by a very good body/frame man before you waste time moding any car over 5 years old. Worse if they have Ziebart et al applied by aftermarket shops including car dealers.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

ericjon262 DEC 09, 12:57 AM
welding is kinda like shooting in a way, you can put a cheap rifle in the hands of a pro, and they'll still nail the target more often than not, but you put a good rifle in the hands of someone who has never seen a rifle in their life, and they're probably not going to do so hot...

I would highly reccomend that no matter which welder you choose, you get something that runs on 220 V, and USES GAS. the 220 V machines have much higher capacity, and the gas makes everything cleaner, easier, and I would argue safer as well.

I've been teaching myself to TIG weld over the past year or so, I'm getting better, but it takes tons of practice, one of the most invaluable things for me has been youtube, 2 channels in particular have been especially worth watching.

The Fabrication Series

https://www.youtube.com/cha...lBLmujrjTVSSUkzZ2Jlg

and Welding tips and tricks

https://www.youtube.com/user/weldingtipsandtricks

as far as the task of making mounts, I'll say that you'll need more tools than just a welder, a GOOD drill press is worth it's weight in gold, a plasma cutter is too, I love mine, and it make short work of cuts that would take way longer with a grinder and cut off wheel, but it is about 10x the price as a good grinder, and requires you to have an air compressor.
as far as material, I'm making mine with 1/4" plate steel, which is WAY overkill for most builds, I'm using it because I got it for free from a scrap bin at work, otherwise I would stick to something somewhat thinner.

I'm using leaf spring bushings like these from Ballistic Fab for my mount cushions, they're inexpensive, and cheap to replace. you will want to use their mockup bushings so that you don't melt poly while welding, and you take the flex out of the equation.

https://www.ballisticfabric...n-w-weldable-housing

https://www.ballisticfabric...shing-mockup-bushing
If you look at some of the couple of pages of my build thread (in my signature) you can see my mounting plans.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

SteveMushynsky DEC 09, 01:23 AM

quote
Originally posted by theogre:
Is not as simple as your 2 Q. ... often not a simple as drill new holes is them. Sometime you have to add strength by adding big washers or even add "Fish plates" to spread a load



Thank you for your reply, theogre.

I am quite aware of everything you've stated.

The car I will be swapping into is an early production run 1984 Fiero 2M4 with 34,000 original miles. With the exception of worn exterior paint and the classic failed Iron Duke engine, the car is in excellent condition inside and out with only minimal surface rust on undercarriage parts. It was long-term stored in a dry barn. The rear cradle is in excellent shape. Regardless, I intend to use reinforcing plates anywhere an attachment point is located. I also have a 1986 donor car that I can draw from as needed.

Despite your emphatic disdain for noobs, I am in this project to learn new info and skills as needed to do things right. I have an engineering education and a long history of tackling diverse technical projects that have required learning, designing and fabricating as needed. These days I am retired, somewhat disabled and will be working on this only for short periods at a time. If something requires learning and practice to get it right, I intend to take all the time I need to do so. I have the time. Then I have access to very qualified individuals to check what I do.

If proper, needed equipment is more expensive, I will acquire what I need. It will only take me longer, as I am borrowing no funds to do this project.

Have you any problem with this scenario?

Now... My two "simple" initial questions are quite logical & valid and I am looking for some friendly, helpful suggestions and guidance so that I don't buy equipment and materials that I will only want to replace later.

Since you are an admirable font of professional information, have you any constructive suggestions with respect to the questions I've asked? Thanks much.


------------------
Steve Mushynsky

1984 Fiero 2M4
34K miles

1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor now)
Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.

1987 Fiero
Tried to kill me (gone to a 'better place')
Prior owner failed to tighten a bolt. Trailing arm separated at 70 mph

[This message has been edited by SteveMushynsky (edited 12-09-2019).]

SteveMushynsky DEC 09, 02:16 AM

quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
... I would highly recommend that no matter which welder you choose, you get something that runs on 220 V, and USES GAS. The 220 V machines have much higher capacity, and the gas makes everything cleaner, easier, and I would argue safer as well.

I've been teaching myself to TIG weld over the past year or so, I'm getting better, but it takes tons of practice, one of the most invaluable things for me has been YouTube, 2 channels in particular have been especially worth watching:

The Fabrication Series
https://www.youtube.com/cha...lBLmujrjTVSSUkzZ2Jlg

Welding tips and tricks
https://www.youtube.com/user/weldingtipsandtricks

As far as the task of making mounts, I'll say that you'll need more tools than just a welder, a GOOD drill press is worth it's weight in gold, a plasma cutter is too, I love mine, and it makes short work of cuts that would take way longer with a grinder and cut off wheel, but it is about 10x the price as a good grinder, and requires you to have an air compressor.
As far as material, I'm making mine with 1/4" plate steel, which is WAY overkill for most builds, I'm using it because I got it for free from a scrap bin at work, otherwise I would stick to something somewhat thinner.

I'm using leaf spring bushings like these from Ballistic Fab for my mount cushions, they're inexpensive, and cheap to replace. You will want to use their mock up bushings so that you don't melt poly while welding, and you take the flex out of the equation.

https://www.ballisticfabric...n-w-weldable-housing

https://www.ballisticfabric...shing-mockup-bushing

If you look at some of the couple of pages of my build thread (in my signature) you can see my mounting plans.


Thank you,ericjon262, for your constructive, good advice and info leads. I've studied your build threads and pretty much every one else's that involves an Ecotec for quite a while, now.

I'm not going into this project blind, but I realize my limitations and gaps. Gaps I look forward to filling. Limitations are more annoying. One limitation I have is a maximum 100 AMP 220V power availability to run a welder. My assumption is that shielding gas welding, either MIG or TIG is a capability I want - and I do recognize the learning curve involved.

Has anyone here also had constructive experience using acetylene welding and cutting equipment?

My son's father-in-law has been a professional welder for decades. I hope to get more learning and practice with him than I'd ever get alone. If I need to, I'll enroll in some welding courses at our local trades school or community college.

- Which 220V MIG or TIG welder might you recommend within a max 100 amp input limitation?
- New or used?
- Is an acetylene system worth looking into, also?
- Is 3/16" mild steel plate sufficient for fabricating engine and transmission mount adaptors?

I'm thinking to use less than 1/4" plate to better facilitate welding joints with good penetration and to allow brake-bending (or wide vice & hammer) along some edges to add strength. As I see it, actual mounts between adaptors and engine/transmission would be available ones such as CNC'd aluminum/poly mounts from ZZP or similar to preserve anti-vibration isolation, to help shield from torque shocks and to lessen wheel hops. I assume they know far more about mount bushings isolation than I do.

Sorry to be so information-needy, but at this point in my journey, frankly I am.
I know this and don't want to be a PIA to anyone. I would be appropriately grateful, though for any info or guidance I could get.

------------------
Steve Mushynsky

1984 Fiero 2M4
34K miles

1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor now)
Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.

1987 Fiero
Tried to kill me (gone to a 'better place')
Prior owner failed to tighten a bolt. Trailing arm separated at 70 mph

fieroguru DEC 09, 07:49 AM
I have used a 220V Lincoln Pro-Mig 175 for about 10 years and it is one of my favorite and most used tools (along with my hand held grinder). I also have a tig, but haven't taken the time to do much with it.

Thickness of metal will be very application specific, but I prefer to use 1/8" when possible, but some mount designs or available room for specific mounts will require thicker material. The further the mounts are placed front/rear, the less loading these will see from driveline torque. I use rubber control arm bushings with a 4 corner mount setup and like to keep the mounts co-linear when possible to reduce the opportunity of one mount being significantly more loaded than the others.

If you are building your swap with minimum weight being a priority, then you should focus your efforts to keeping all mounts functional, but with minimal weight. With 3-4 engine/transmission mounts, dogbone mounts (if used), accessory brackets, coolant pipes, etc... they all add up in the end.

If you review many of my build threads, I start most mounts with 16ga as it is quick to cut, shape, and can support loads. Once I like to overall design, then I transfer to the pattern to 1/8".
sourmash DEC 09, 09:16 AM
I bought a Lincoln Weld Pak 100 for hobby use and will validate what has been said, because it's not powerful enough for much of what I'd like to do. It's sufficient for body panel work and limited other work. I've welded larger things like repairs to my trailer rails and a new top for my wood stove, but only because it's all I had available.
wftb DEC 09, 09:41 AM
I have a Hobart Handler 190 MIG machine. It is a made in the USA machine, bought new from our local TSC store.Very easy to use, and if you follow the guide for heat settings, wire speed and gas settings under the access lid, with very little practice you can be making nice welds quickly.

I have mine fed on a 40 A 220V circuit with a large cord I can move around the garage. I just looked at the nameplate and at an input of 230V it draws max 25A, So if you have a 100A service in your house you will be fine.

Most of the settings you will use are less than 1/2 of the machines output so there is a big margin built in. The main reason I originally bought this machine was to weld body sheet metal on an old car I restored. And it does that very well.

As far as oxyacetalene cutting I did that in shop class in high school. Pretty easy, but you need a large area to contain the fire hazard. I would like a plasma cutter but don't want to spend the money. I make do with a hand held grinder, bench grinder, drill press,14" Makita chop saw, sawzall,jig saws and some BFH's. And a sliding compound mitre saw called Evolution that will cut metal up to 1/8" thick. It also cuts wood so it is very handy.

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86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-09-2019).]

RWDPLZ DEC 09, 11:25 AM
If you have family members that can weld, absolutely take advantage of that, having people there that can help you in person will help you learn MUCH faster.
SteveMushynsky DEC 09, 06:42 PM
Thank you fieroguru, sourmash, wftb, RWDPLZ. This is exactly the kind of specific advice I was begging for.

Being a 'boomer' and 'long in tooth', with a basement and garage that bears strong resemblance to a Home Depot store, I already have many of the supporting tools I will need.

As to new tool or equipment acquisitions, I have already started with the basic engineer's solution tool, the aforementioned "BFH":

[This message has been edited by SteveMushynsky (edited 12-10-2019).]