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| I was contacted by author, now writing a Fiero book. Needs our help. (Page 2/4) |
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hyperv6
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NOV 26, 11:33 AM
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Yes the PPG colors and paint were too difficult and expensive for production back in that era.
As for the RPO colors they are shot and listed in various places.
There was a couple cars claimed to have been odd factory paint out there but I have never see documentation to back it. Odds are they were legit but never proven.
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CoolBlue87GT
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NOV 26, 11:41 AM
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I sent Fred a PM, hope he will be able to add some information here.
If anyone can contact our best Fiero historians, please direct them to this post, I'm sure they can add more information that can help. Thanks.
Been searching on line and most production totals do not list the experimental units.
I wish I could remember where I snagged this chart. I'm glad I did, as it may have been lost to us all over the years.
I remember talking with a fellow that worked on the production line, he said Pontiac had painted up a few Fiero's with different colors on each fender and doors to test the colors out. He said they used them on the factory grounds, but not on the public roads. Wonder if these could be part of the experimental cars listed.[This message has been edited by CoolBlue87GT (edited 11-26-2017).]
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fierofool
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NOV 26, 12:53 PM
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The link I posted came from an article in Hot Rod Magazine. It also said that all the PPG cars were painted in a pearl base coat, clear coat, wet on wet application. I think it was a non-isocyanic paint. Maybe not the correct word, but similar to that. My first thoughts of the word was that it didn't have Super Glue in the formula. 
All the PPG cars were built from GT's, and not SE's so production numbers may include those vehicles. The GT's were probably chosen due to the aero trim on the sides. Other than trim, the SE's could be identical to the GT.
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CoolBlue87GT
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NOV 27, 07:22 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by GoGoFiero:
Hello all:
Great work!
Robert |
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Robert, Heard you spoke with Fred by phone, hope you and Fred can find some good information.[This message has been edited by CoolBlue87GT (edited 11-27-2017).]
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RAREW66
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NOV 28, 11:35 PM
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I did talk to Robert on Saturday. The specific information he is looking for to publish in his book is currently not available. Everyone needs to keep in mind that when Pontiac moved out of the corporate building in Pontiac and went back downtown, they literally cleaned the building out in to dumpsters. People like Jim Mattison were lucky enough to recover the material that he did. But there was so much of it in such a short window that there was no way of retrieving all of it. Unfortunately, most of the information related directly to production for all car lines across Pontiac were lost, especially the 80's and 90's. We were lucky enough to find some production data on Saturday at the museum, but it is not complete enough to specifically know how many of of each model were produced in a specific color.
I am not sure how the PPG Pace Cars got involved in this thread. The special colors that they were painted had nothing to do with production Fieros, but did have a lot to do with PPG who is in the paint business. The significance of the paint on these cars was the experimental stage of the catalyst based urethane formulated paint process that would soon become the DAU Deltron paint used for consumer based refinish products. The pearl additives were experimental also. The pearl additive used on these six cars was a liquid similar to syrup that required a series of additional additives to activate and was sprayed as a separate step before the clearcoat was applied. Unlike the powder added to the clearcoat that is used today.
The only significance to production history is that the Red Turbo and Yellow pace car were Red 85 GT Production Pilot Build cars that were tested at Milford proving grounds. The Blue pace car was a engineering test car that was used for EPA emissions certifications. Instead of being destroyed like most of these types of cars did, Pontiac Motorsports donated the remnants of the cars after testing to support the six car PPG Pace Car Team.
The chart that Cool Blue posted is from one of the former Fiero Clubs and I recall this from the early nineties. I agree to the fact that it is not correct. The entire experimental column is in error. Pontiac made more than those small numbers of experimental and prototype Fieros. The Experimental and Concept Fieros would have not been anywhere near the Fiero Plant and would have no influence on production data. Some of the Prototype cars however could have been produced at the factory with a VIN number. It was just a matter of what Pontiac had in mind for them. Most of these cars did not have an MSO issued on them, so they would have never made it in to the public sector. I have been looking through some of my old FOCOA and FOA newsletters to see if I can find the original.
I continue to search for the coveted production records, but have not had a complete success yet.
Fred
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Rn2016
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NOV 29, 06:02 AM
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A little off topic. Is this the Ultimate Fiero book? I want to buy a Fiero book to help with my research and learning more about the car's design, mechanics etc. Thanks.
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GoGoFiero
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DEC 02, 02:55 AM
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Hello, I've been working too many hours and I finally have a chance to respond.
CoolBlue87GT:
Yes, Fred and I spoke on the phone, as mentioned in my original email to you and my post of 11-25-17 on this thread (above). Thanks again for your help!
Fred:
It was a pleasure to chat with you while you were at the Pontiac-Oakland Museum with Tim Dye, the owner. Very nice man.
Fred, your knowledge and love of the Fiero and the people associated with the Fiero hobby is unsurpassed.
However, we will have to agree to disagree.
You mention that you recall the chart at issue and, "I agree to the fact that it is not correct."
Your sweeping statement about the chart is incorrect. Ninety percent of the production figures in the book that you co-authored agree with that chart.
Further, you mention that, "The entire experimental column is in error." You then discuss experimental Fiero cars.
In fact, the entire experimental column is correct.
You have misread the headings of the lower table. The "experimental" totals are for color, not cars.
I can say with confidence that the chart at issue correctly indicates the experimental colors for 1986 and 1988.
I can also say with confidence that the chart at issue is incorrect about the lack of a 1984 experimental color. In fact, there were two 1984 experimental color units recorded by Pontiac. Fortunately, the lower table correctly indicates 136,842 total units produced for 1984. The chart adds the two units of 1984 experimental colors into the Silver color total (one unit) and the White color total (one unit). Similar to what other GM divisions did with experimental colors, Pontiac did not report the two experimental units in their final production totals. Note that the chart at issue indicates 136,840 units for 1984 on the top table.
Now, I find the "movement" of those two 1984 cars quite interesting. Whoever compiled the chart at issue must have had a production report for the 1984 Fiero which correctly counted the cars produced. Heck, that production report (whatever it was) is better than the Automotive News Magazine with it's Market Data Book issues, which for the 1984 Fiero, is very incorrect for the 1984 total production figure (once the monthly totals are added).
What does this information tell me? Whoever compiled this chart had correctly indicated, in different ways, the experimental colors for the 1984, 1986, and 1988 Fiero.
This forces me to take note of the 1987 experimental color total of two ("2") units indicated on the chart. Why would the person who compiled the chart at issue place that number there?
That person must have had a source document which indicated two experimental cars for 1987.
That document likely indicated much more than just the experimental color Fieros of 1987.
The above is the reasoning behind my search for a 1987 Pontiac Fiero production document. As mentioned, that document would likely be titled, "Option Analysis by Selected UPC Usage."
(Pontiac production reports typically used UPC, not RPO.)
I hope that this 1987 production report can be found. It would certainly serve to promote the Fiero hobby!
Sincerely,
Robert
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hyperv6
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DEC 02, 08:24 AM
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The truth is there will never be a complete listing of what all went on.
As Fred pointed out if Jim did not save it then odds are unwell a lost record is recovered the info is gone.
Even when GM had the info it was damn near impossible to find someone willing to find it. It took two years to get my 1990 blueprint with help from some well placed people.
Also much goes on of the record too. Things never documented. Kind of like the G5 ecotec turbo I found at the plant that no one had ever seen or knew about.. it was a product of a undocumented low level decision and was relegated to running parts at the Ohio plant when rejected.
Even many of the people involved do not remember anymore as this was just one job of many cars they worked in. Also they are older and do not recall as much.
Robert please do not discount Fred as you will find while things are not always clear on the info his is the best that is out there. The truth is you can ask 5 GM people and it can result in 5 different responses. Fred’s info also has evolved with time as more info has been found.
What you will find if you dig long enough some odd thing here or there and often it went to the crusher with many never seeing it.
With so much to be written about the Fiero dwelling on a odd color is line swallowing an elephant while choking on a flea.
The real story is the drama of the car and how it was done. The documented items like plastic wheels and 2.9 engines that never made production. The 1990 that many never knew much about other than some obscure colors.
Your only hope for more info may be at the tech center. Might try a Jeff Dennison to see if he might know where to find more info. If he is a dead end then you may be stuck.
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GoGoFiero
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DEC 04, 10:15 PM
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Fred knows more about the Fiero than anyone out there. That is accepted by everyone, including me. He has earned this distinction and the respect that goes with it.
I have privately emailed Fred in the past and, as mentioned above, Fred and I had a truly friendly conversation on the phone. I certainly would never discount Fred in any way.
Educated gentlemen will agree to disagree on the silliest of things. (I still laugh when the Duke brothers made their "usual" bet in the bathroom about Eddie Murphy in the film, Trading Places.) We cannot truly know what is out there, as far as Pontiac production reports go. This 1987 Fiero production report is a true needle-in-a-haystack. I believe that it is out there somewhere. That needle-in-a-haystack would benefit the Fiero hobbiest and add depth of knowledge to the 1987 Fiero production numbers. It is not the odd color we are after. We are after the entire report. That report does not simply have color totals, it has a complete listing of ALL of the RPO totals for 1987.
I have worked for years searching for, finding, and verifying legal information from primary source documents. Primary sources are very important. Pontiac reports are primary sources. A book written by me, or anyone other than GM, is a secondary source. While researching, some numbers can indicate that there was another source which must have had more or different information. I see certain Fiero information, and suspect that there are other reports out there with more information than is currently known.
Will that 1987 Pontiac report include the pilot or prototype cars? Maybe. (The 1988 report does!) It might not be earth shattering to have that information, but maybe one of those cars was pushed past security and out of the plant one night, and you happen to find it for sale next week. That would be very cool. What could be learned and documented from that car? What if we found out that there were only 150 units of Silver GTs built in 1987? And you had one?
Football teams win because of teamwork. Hockey teams win because of teamwork. Teamwork is an amazing thing. As a team, we can search for this 1987 Pontiac Fiero report.
We all know that things show up in the strangest places. And sometimes, all you have to do is ask for what you want. That is what I'm doing here. It is a forum to further Fiero knowledge. If we become complacent and stop digging and searching for any further Fiero information, we are doing a disservice to the Fiero hobby.
That report should be titled, "Option Analysis by Selected UPC Usage." Let's keep looking and find it!
To help, I could post an image of the 1988 report, but I do not know how to post photos here.
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CoolBlue87GT
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DEC 05, 12:07 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by GoGoFiero:
To help, I could post an image of the 1988 report, but I do not know how to post photos here.
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Yes, I'm sure all the forum members would love to see it.
To post photo's check out the link at the bottom of the screen that looks like this ... 
If you can't get it to work, email it to me, I'll get it posted.[This message has been edited by CoolBlue87GT (edited 12-05-2017).]
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