Building our Lemons/Chumpcar (Page 28/29)
DonP MAR 09, 11:27 AM

quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:

That truck is awesome! Do you have a build thread?



Thanks. It was a lot of work, but fun as well.

Because this is a Fiero Forum, I will not be doing a build thread. But I'm hoping Cliff and everyone else will tolerate one or maybe two posts where I discuss what we did.

Don
FIEROPHREK MAR 09, 12:52 PM

quote
Originally posted by DonP:


Thanks. It was a lot of work, but fun as well.

Because this is a Fiero Forum, I will not be doing a build thread. But I'm hoping Cliff and everyone else will tolerate one or maybe two posts where I discuss what we did.

Don



Other cars forum !!!!!!!! Besides if it has a fiero rear in it we can just call it a rebody!

------------------

ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

12.3 is faster than a 13.2

kwagner MAR 10, 08:16 AM
Great to see the progress that's been made
Inspires me to get my butt in gear and get my own race car fixed and back on the track!
fieroguru MAR 10, 12:37 PM

quote
Originally posted by DonP:
Because this is a Fiero Forum, I will not be doing a build thread. But I'm hoping Cliff and everyone else will tolerate one or maybe two posts where I discuss what we did.

Don



I would love to see a build thread!
The number of really cool threads on PFF is becoming quite small and with this current one coming to an end, there will be one less, unless you do one on the S10 Rebody.
DonP MAR 14, 11:24 AM
I was asked why we sold the car. Why was that even close to being a logical action? In most ways, it wasn't even close to a logical course of action. After all, we finally had a complete car where the only real task left was to do some sorting and tweaking. We could unload it from the trailer after a race and, assuming no wreck damage, spend a couple hours on maintenance, maybe buy a couple new tires and be ready for the next race. The Fiero was cool and had real character.

What is probably overlooked here by those who have not closely examined the pictures is that only one of our regular drivers is under 6'2"; only one driver is under 240 lbs; only one driver is under 55 years of age. And they are all the same guy - Robert. The Fiero is a small car. In this case made smaller with a roll cage. It wasn't a good fit. It's rough climbing through a window that small.
With that in mind, we started looking for an option. We liked the whole mid engine concept. The 3800SC is a great choice for this race venue while not being the most powerful engine going. But we needed more room in the passenger compartment. And frankly we saw no way to get there with the Fiero. Rich began talking about building a new bigger vehicle, perhaps a truck. Then we ran across this posting about someone's mid engine truck being run in the Chumpcar series. http://forums.vwvortex.com/...Truck-Chumpcar-Biuld
Well that was interesting. And it reinforced our mid-engine truck idea. Of course it needed to be a GM product.

So, the official "description of your LeMons Theme Concept" statement goes something like this. "If Chevy could create a mid-engine Corvair truck and Volkswagen chose to do the same with their VW truck we were positive Pontiac always meant to carry on with a Fiero truck. The Fiero died an early death with production stopped midyear in 1988, so it was left to us to build it. What could go wrong? " That was the official description we devised to gain acceptance into a LeMons race.

After a bit of consideration we decided to tackle this project. Our early measurements indicated that the mid '90s S10 could work for our concept. Our thoughts were that we could graft a Fiero nose to the front of an S-10 cab. It looked like it would work because we would not have to accommodate an engine up front. An additional advantage was that by placing the cell into the front engine compartment, hopefully behind the front axle, we would come closer to a 50/50 weight split. And from the start we realized that an extended cab would give us more of the much needed leg-room. We would sacrifice truck-bed space for cab space while retaining a reasonable length. And really, how hard could it be to graft a Fiero rear cradle to a truck frame?

Craigslist provided the first portion of the build. Just over the hill in Elk Grove Ca., just outside of Sacramento, a muffler shop was parting out a 1995 S-10 delivery truck. At 285,000 miles they had replaced the transmission only to have it grenade 5,000 miles later. Figuring it was an omen, they decided to replace the truck. Though they had been advertising the truck for over four weeks, much of the parts still remained. If we could make it the next day, we would get a smoking deal. Robert and I jumped in the truck, grabbed the flatbed trailer and headed west.







The front sheetmetal was gone. But since we intended to draft on the Fiero nose. that was of no concern. What came as a surprise was that they were keeping the frame for a custom build project. Surely we could get something out of Pick-n-pull. The other surprise was that it had a second small door on the driver's side. Rich was less than thrilled with that revelation. But it actually became a great asset as we worked on the truck.

Once we got back with our new cab, the first thing we tackled was finding a frame. I know we could have started with a small pick-up using uni-body construction. We really wanted a full frame to have a secure mount for the roll cage. This was far preferable to welding spreader plates to a sheetmetal body as we had to do with the Fiero. Unfortunately, what we didn't want was a frame as heavy as the Chevy S10. Rich and I spent 2-3 days at the local bone yard looking at various frames. Rich, the die-hard GM guy was even willing to look at a Ford frame if necessary. He was spared that fate when we came across a Chevy Tracker. With several hours of labor, we lifted the body off and removed everything from the bare frame. We hauled it through the yard to the front gate only to find that Pick-N-Pull could not sell us a complete frame. They could sell portions of the frame, but not a complete assembled frame. Our option was to cut the frame in half and buy two separate pieces. We ended up buying a battery powered reciprocal saw because we a.) could not take the complete frame through the gate and use a generator and tools to break the frame. b.) run a power cord into the yard. c.) use their power. d.) use any gas powered tools. e.) well just about any other logical method. f.0 it was the last day of a half price sale. Oh, and the published price (for the complete frame they couldn't sell) was less than the price for the two "sub" frames we created. At this point, Rich boiled over and had a high level discussion with the gentleman we were trying to deal with. The manager overheard the discussion and ended up giving us a discount to the complete frame price.

We spent time removing all the bracketry and all unnecessary pieces from the frame(s) before sending them out to be sandblasted. Robert had a contact who gave us a great price.

In this next picture, you can see that we started down the path of mounting the Fiero body to the Tracker frame.



Before rejoining the two frame halves, we took the time to go through the suspension. Here you can see the frame on our particle board surface plate. The Tracker lower control arms were used. But we ditched the struts for upper control arms. In this case, we found that Fiero upper control arms gave us the configuration we wanted. We went to the stock (pre metric) 5x 4.75" bolt pattern front and rear. And we used the regular GM single piston metric calipers front and rear.



On the passenger side of the front frame rail, we found damage from an impact to the wheels. We had to add a plate to repair and strengthen that portion and attach the upper Fiero control arms.



We used Corvette wheels front and back. We were able to get some stagger with 9.5" wide wheels up front and 10" wheels in back. It's amazing and amusing that every time we show up at the track, people ask "are those Corvette wheels" or "is that truck on a Corvette frame?" All the stuff going on and people notice those right off. Actually, we found that Corvette wheels are the most economical choice we could make. It seems that the first thing Corvette owners do is change out the wheels. Then those wheels that have been stored for 15 years are sold off cheaply to appease the significant other. Or, you would be surprised how often you can find three wheels on Craigslist. Lots of wheels have been lost to misplaced curbs. Three wheel sets are cheap. In the 3 sets we have ultimately ended up with, we haven't spent more than $50 for any wheel with most wheels coming in at $35.



We also moved the firewall back to accommodate the safety fuel cell. We used a flat sheet of steel because we didn't have to provide a transmission tunnel. We would have preferred to keep the firewall forward for better weight distribution (it effects the placement of the driver, a heavy component of this team) but the fuel cell required the move.
We never could get the pit stops working as they should given the fueling constraints. Oh, and with the small tank we were at a disadvantage in the number of pit stops required. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/090867-6.html#p239 We were able to fit a 16 gallon cell into the space. Obviously we would have preferred to fit something closer to the 22 gallon rules limited size. But we couldn't get it in the space with going to a custom cell. Price drove the decision. Even with the 16 gallon cell, we now have more fuel than driver stamina.



You can see that odd white piece of sheet metal above the cell. That was the remains of the bracket left to hold the windshield motor in place. We went with the Bosche 044 external fuel pump plumbed in-line.

Bubba, the muffler shops 300 plus pound driver had over the years actually cracked the floorboards where the seat mounts. Our solution was to save money and use the floor of the bed to replace the interior floorboards. That also made it easier to eliminate the stock transmission tunnel. We also mounted the Kirkey race seats to the Fiero seat slides. Sooo much easier with different size drivers.



We also moved the switches from the dash to a panel on the console. The switch plate was located directly in front of the Fiero's Getrag 5-speed shifter.




Rich made some custom cooling tubes to connect the engine to the front mounted radiator. These tubes ran through the console tunnel well above the bottom of the frame well out of harms way.





Out back, we just couldn't get the Fiero rear cradle to mount to the Tracker frame rails. So we made a new cradle from square tubing. We ended up actually welding the cradle in place.











Our rear suspension took some time to develop. We used '85 rear Fiero lower control arms, 2005 Grand Am altered front spindles, altered Fiero front upper control arms, and the larger low friction screw in ball joints. This double wishbone rear suspension allowed us to get away from the struts and gave us great flexibility in designing the rear geometry including completely eliminating any rear bump steer. This flexibility came at a price as it took numerous design changes along with a lot of fabrication and a month to complete. Just one of the many reasons we were late debuting our new ride.We used the stock Fiero axles but had to change out the drive ends to fit Grand Am hubs. Oddly, the cheapest rotors we could find with the offset and size we needed was off of a C4 corvette. And again we used the single piston GM metric calipers. We used Wagner thermoquiet pads front and rear because of our good results on the Fiero.



Ryan at Sinister Performance http://www.gmtuners.com/ had created two 3800SC PCMs for us to use on the Fiero. We had never gotten around to using them there, but they worked on the truck just as well. Rich handled the wiring. And later on we had a local speed shop do the final tuning.





We came to appreciate that small back door that Rich originally complained about. He is now extremely thankful as it gives us easier access to the area behind the seat. Rich is now looking for an extended cab with back doors on both sides. We wish him luck with that one! We also have access to a small cool shirt cooler mounted in back.

These are photos of the first time we really dropped the vehicle to the ground.





We ultimately ended up abandoning the Fiero nose idea. It was too restrictive. We did find S10 fenders and hood, but ended up using an Oldsmobile Bravada grill and front fender cover. S10 and Jimmy pieces are in high demand, but nobody wants Bravada pieces so they are easier to find. We actually like the look. And it tends to sow more confusion with the judges.










This post is getting a bit long. I'll continue later with more on the rear of the truck and theme elements. As well as a few on track pictures.
wftb MAR 14, 11:06 PM
Cant wait to see the rear suspension set up .And the funny thing is you could put a long box on this and have a pretty useful truck .
kwagner MAR 16, 10:16 PM
Great write-up, can't wait for more!
IanT720 MAR 17, 03:01 PM
Lovin it! Great Fiero build, and documentation, now that S10 is Sick!
DonP MAR 21, 11:01 AM
Work continued on our S10/Fiero truck. With the engine/transmission and suspension cradle securely connected to the rear frame rails, we ended up with a wheelbase of 106 " versus the stock Fiero's 93.4" wheelbase. That's a fair gain. We fully expected that this would make the new vehicle a bit less twitch without losing the quickness that the Fiero platform offered . Most of the additional length was captured in the extended cab.

There was no way that we could add a full size bed to the back. Not even a mini-truck bed would fit. If you look at the pictures without the bed, it's apparent that the wheel arch has to start about 1-2 inches behind the cab bulkhead. And extending past the wheel arch a "normal" distance would result in a very large overhang that would be really ridiculous. In addition, we then could not use the stock rear frame components that create the crush zone. What we did was take the sides panels off the bed. We then cut the front of the bed panels away until we could center the wheel arches over the wheels themselves.



The fact that the tailgate was damaged presented another problem. First of all, a replacement tailgate was too expensive. Secondly, it was very heavy. So Rich came up with the solution of utilizing the FRONT panel of the bed at the back. It already had all of the contours in place to match the bed side panels, And it was lighter. So we created some mounts to hold the front/back panel in place.









It then became a matter of trimming the side panels where they intersected the new rear
panel.



We used an aluminum bumper from that donor Park Avenue.

Naturally, we needed a way to seal the engine compartment. We had already assigned a higher use to the bed as a floor to the cab. So we elected to seal the bed at the top with aluminum panels. Rich bent up three separate panels that interlocked so that we could maintain some access to the back.



Robert came up with the great idea of using a diamond-plate truck bed tool box as an engine cover. This was a nifty idea that played into our theme of having a "handyman" work truck.





Working in a small garage means that you are always very close to the project. It was hard to get a long view or perspective on what you are building. Frankly, we didn't realize just how short the bed was until we got it out of the garage. You too haven't seen the truck from anything other than that 3/4 shot I posted above. But here it is in a full profile showing the true proportions.





The last two pictures were taken at our first on-track test day. Honestly, the car wasn't yet complete. You'll notice that the rear bumper is still exposed and hanging out in the wind. What we intended to do was use a Fiero rear bumper cover. And we probably COULD have made it work. But instead Rich and I spent a day in the local pick-n-pull measuring all sorts of bumper cover to fit our truck. What we ultimately ended up using was a Chevy Lumina rear bumper cover.




We also added a couple more thematic elements. For the purposes of tech, we bolted on a small tow hitch to our actual tow (as in tow me off the track) hook.



Because the new rules required a rear glass or partition on all mid-engine cars, we added a lexan rear window made to accommodate the rear down bars.



The interior successfully met our goals with a much roomier and friendly space.







The biggest theme element that we had on the truck was this lumber rack that Rich bent up for the occasion. We mounted a ladder and some power cords and air hoses and a couple boards to the rack to sell the theme. And no, we didn't actually race with the rack on the truck.







We pretty much brought the tech station to a halt when we showed up with the truck.







I never thought I would say that we were lucky to be inspected by John "Evil Genius." But Jay Lamm the first gentleman looking at the engine compartment was saying "so essentially, they are a tube frame chassis?" This would have been pretty much the kiss of death for us. But head technical inspector Evil Genius the guy on the right looking into the front compartment, said no we were using a production frame. Which of course was correct. So we did pass muster as a "unique" but legal LeMons car. At least from a safety tech stand point.

Next came the "BS" inspection. That had to be the most fun I ever had during a tech inspection session. It became pretty clear where the Judge's ruling was headed, we were going to be judged an "A" car with more than a few penalty laps. So as the head Judge started talking I interrupted and talked right over him. "We understand that you are going to have to call our Fiero based S10 a "C" car. Don't worry we understand and can live with it." That took him back for moment. When he started to continue I again talked over him and said "no, really. Trust me, our egos can handle it. And we can understand you having to do that." Again he paused, and then started laughing. Finally he came back with "you gotta have a huge set of balls to even say that! Nope, you are an 'A' car and we have to give you some penalty laps, even if we don't really want to. So we'll give you 25 penalty laps." Something got lost in transferring everything to the official timing sheets and we got an official 2 lap penalty.

Rich and I are both convinced that, had we left the truck rusty with jagged body panels and poorly constructed dash and a cracked windshield, we would have been judged less severely and at least avoided penalty laps. But poor workmanship is just not a possibility with Rich.

A few gratuitous on track shots.













We were part of the Guinness Records starting grid.



I really like the photo found here. (but cannot afford the $100 to buy the collection.) http://headonphotos.net/gal...agepages/image7.html it's part of a whole series of photos found here. http://headonphotos.net/gal...S14-2/871/index.html



And I'll mention again that we won that Judges Choice award.



So that's pretty much all she wrote for this build story.

As I type this, the Fiero is just a couple hours from the next race at Sonoma Raceway. Sam and the rest of the Area 51 Stealth Alien Hunters are looking for a good result on Saturday March 21, 2015. I will attempt to get him to post any progress notes he might want to share. For my part, I'll be monitoring #51 progress in tomorrow's race via the internet at https://www.race-monitor.com/Live/Race/24412

So, anyone looking for a straight, rust free California '88 Fiero to start their own project? The first Fiero we bought on our Lemons journey.
kwagner MAR 22, 07:27 PM
Wow, quite an event! Congrats