80's Cars That Should Have Never Been Canceled (Page 2/4)
hyperv6 JAN 23, 07:00 PM

quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

The Fiero was killed off due to a combination of factors; A) The first year needed much more development ("Never buy the first year")....B) The fire problem (Magnified out of proportion by the media).....C) GM brass not liking a non-standard design ("Standard design that can be sold by all 5 companies").....D) Sales dropping; The Fiero was incredibly successful the first year, which saturated the market but also put a bunch of Fieros out there that were "Half-baked"....Yes, E) The Vette guys not wanting any competition.....And finally, magazines like Car & Drivel, who's whole mantra was "ANTI-AMERICA!!!!" ("American cars all suck- buy foreign because they are all perfect!"

Also, the last year sales are artificially very low because the car was cancelled early in 88. If production had continued they probably would have sold around 40-50 thousand 88 Fieros.



See this is why we need a historical document to really tell the true story of the Fiero. While you post some plausible ideas none really were in play in the true death of the car.

I and a few others here have met and spoken to the people in the Fiero program. I even got to read the actual documents from the meeting where they killed the car.

#1 Pontiac was on the verge of being killed long before Olds.

#2 The Fiero was a way they felt at Pontiac they could get people into Pontiacs show rooms and notice their other cars. It worked ad the Grand Am saved Pontiac.

#3 Pontiac had to sell tbe Fiero in 6 figures early on to cover the plant capacity. That is a big mistake as it kills off future sales fast. But even then the 30k sales in 88 was still hood if they had gotten the GM 80 into production.

#4 the Corvette sales were on the decline and they were worried they may not get a C5 program approved. If the new GT had hit it could have hurt Corvette sales at the lower price.

#5 So Chevy pointed out the Plant under capacity at a time GM was already short money. This doomed the car no matter what Pontiac offered. As it was said Chevy sells more cars so Chevy gets more say,

6# GM has a history of divisions competing with each other vs complimenting and working together. This is what killed the Fiero and also led to the bankruptcy of GM. Today the remaining divisions are working as one.

While the early issues and fires publicly did not help they did not kill the car.

The P chassis was offered to Chevy early on and they declined it twice. So no GM was not upset on that.

Finally you can drop the Car and Driver blame as they had nothing to do with what GM did.

Also they built the 88 Fiero for about 14 months. So it was out for more than a year. Still 30k plus is a high number for any two seat car other than the Corvette. Even the Miata is limited below 20k and of late around 10k or less.


Sports cars are not profit centers out size the high end companies. They are generally for attention at most regular automakers and not priorities, 280 z, RX7, MR2 etc they all live limited lives. Some comeback but then go away again.

You don’t run companies like this on emotion. You do try to stimulate customer emotion but at the end of the day it comes down to profits. The cold hard truth is the every day passenger vehicles make the money and the cool cars are often the first to get cut as they are not the profit centers.

The reason they did not go after the Trans Am is Chevy at that time relied on Pontiac to share the platform or they may lose the Camaro, spreading the cost kept it alive.

When it comes to stuff like this seldom do the true facts get published. These are business decisions that often do not come out till people retire or time passes.

Much of the Fiero end was also covered up as the Unions made a lot of concessions with Pontiac an this left a lot of hard feelings with GM, Pontiac and the union.

Back in the early 90’s the 90 GT was to be shown but the head of Pontiac ordered not to show it or he would pay a big price.

It too John Schinella to show photos at the Fiero meet. He said they were not yo have left GM but he was planning to retire so he did not care. I was there for that at the Silverfone dinner in Pontiac.

hyperv6 JAN 23, 07:09 PM

quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

My first "Car-Love" was my dentist's Pantera.....he coulda pulled a tooth without Novocain while I was looking out the window at that car! Later, after getting out of the Navy and getting a (Relatively) high-paying job, I could have bought a used Pantera- but by then I had discovered the truth about most exotic cars. Horrible reliability, expensive upkeep, and ergonomics based on some form of alien life.

The simian-driving position was in every Italian sportscar; No leg room, and your arms stretched way out. The BMW M1 was a revelation with better ergonomics and better reliability, and then the Acura NSX came along and put all of the Italians on the trailer (Ergo and reliability- not performance)

They complain about the "Fieros catching fire" but among the richie-rich car fanatics, it is well known that Lambos catch fire quite often.

All the mags compared the Fiero to the MR2, but the Fiero performed the same or better than the RX7 and 300ZX of the 80s (Non-turbo versions) and was substantially cheaper.



The Fiero came out many in the press was smitten by it.

But the truth is the steering was heavy. The under steer was bad. The 4 cylinder was not what it needed. Bump steer is horrible.

As the other cars like the MR2 came out it was just better tuned and easier to drive. Look I hate Toyota but I can’t pretend the 84 to 87 Fiero was a very well tuned car.

I used to think my Fiero was world class handling and compared to my Chevelle SS it was. But then I drove some. True world class hAndling cars and I learned the truth.

You can get a car to handle but the difference is you can go stupid fast in a well tuned car with out working hard. In my Fiero I can go fast but I really have to work for it.

I am not a 911 fan but I do have a ton of miles in one. It makes going fast feel slow. That is how a well tuned car feels.
cvxjet JAN 24, 01:43 AM
Kind of funny; The same R&T 1987 Sports & GT special edition mag that I found that test of a Fiero GT that was positive had a test of a Lotus Esprit; "The wussys on the staff called it (The steering) heavy" Also interesting is that the Esprit uses (Basically) the same upright (From Opel) and has the same scrub radius as the Fiero- Yet it had 195 mm tires (Which should have lightened the effort) Any other test of the Esprit (Or any other $$$$$$$$ car) NEVER complains about the steering- or the ergonomics...but, hey- they cost a LOT so those failings are acceptable.

I would be interested in seeing a comparison between the MR2 and the Fiero; How many drivers lost control due to DTO as a percentage of total sold. GM was right in tuning the suspension for more understeer considering the typical buyer- and how many they sold. Most people out there can't drive a neutral balance car. But then anyone who really knows the truth knows that the car that kills the most thru DTO is the 911 (But we all know it's a real "Man's car"......)

CD does the Lightning lap tests every year; Back a few years ago (2009), they tested a 911 Carrera S and a Cayman S- they laid down the same lap time (3:05.8) even though the 911 had a better power-to-weight ratio....The other drivers took the 911 out and tried to get a better time- No dice!

If we keep going with more electronics and more computer controls, at some point we will end up sitting in a chair at home driving a simulator (But most drivers should not be allowed to do anything else!)

I like driving a car that takes some effort- I ordered my Fiero with a manual trans- even though I had NEVER driven a manual before I got the Fiero. The Fiero could have been a better car but so many things conspired against it; GM management, the Fire "Myth", the magazines that were Anti-American plus the ones taking payola from Toyota....And also the collapse of the 2-seat sports car market.
hyperv6 JAN 24, 07:09 AM

quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Kind of funny; The same R&T 1987 Sports & GT special edition mag that I found that test of a Fiero GT that was positive had a test of a Lotus Esprit; "The wussys on the staff called it (The steering) heavy" Also interesting is that the Esprit uses (Basically) the same upright (From Opel) and has the same scrub radius as the Fiero- Yet it had 195 mm tires (Which should have lightened the effort) Any other test of the Esprit (Or any other $$$$$$$$ car) NEVER complains about the steering- or the ergonomics...but, hey- they cost a LOT so those failings are acceptable.

I would be interested in seeing a comparison between the MR2 and the Fiero; How many drivers lost control due to DTO as a percentage of total sold. GM was right in tuning the suspension for more understeer considering the typical buyer- and how many they sold. Most people out there can't drive a neutral balance car. But then anyone who really knows the truth knows that the car that kills the most thru DTO is the 911 (But we all know it's a real "Man's car"......)

CD does the Lightning lap tests every year; Back a few years ago (2009), they tested a 911 Carrera S and a Cayman S- they laid down the same lap time (3:05.8) even though the 911 had a better power-to-weight ratio....The other drivers took the 911 out and tried to get a better time- No dice!

If we keep going with more electronics and more computer controls, at some point we will end up sitting in a chair at home driving a simulator (But most drivers should not be allowed to do anything else!)

I like driving a car that takes some effort- I ordered my Fiero with a manual trans- even though I had NEVER driven a manual before I got the Fiero. The Fiero could have been a better car but so many things conspired against it; GM management, the Fire "Myth", the magazines that were Anti-American plus the ones taking payola from Toyota....And also the collapse of the 2-seat sports car market.



You really have never been around Lotus people. They are very loyal like Fiero people even off their cars were kit car like in many regards. Besides the Struts had nothing to do with the Fiero. It is a matter of design and tuning and until 1988 it was the best they could afford but the bushings let the rear walk every where and the front would push like crazy. I have been there done that till I did some work to the car. The 88 Eliminated these issues and what many do not know is while the suspension is GM designed Porsche Engineering was Brought in to tune the turn in and feel.. This made a big difference and why the reviews got better in the last year. The early cars were not as good as you like to believe they were. and the magazine are just opinion and are all over the place.

The early Fiero understeer is horrible and they could have and should have gone more natural . The 88 proves it.

I wager you have never really driven a very top level tuned car. I used to think the Trans Am was world class. It was good for what it was but the early cars were far from it. Stiffer springs and bigger tires are not the entire formula No pun intended.

For the Money the Fiero was fun and to be honest the flaws in the handling make it more interesting to drive. Some of the best tuned cars are a bore not he road as to really test them you need to be on a track some place. This is why many British sports cars are treasured as they are far from perfect but they offer a challenge that is often fun.

Note when I talk Porsche I am not talking the cars of today I speak of the 911 Air Cooled.

Even the HHR SS I had was nothing exotic but the GM Performance group was the first group at GM that really learned how to tune cars. Everything they touched was amazing. My SS would run circles around my Fiero and made 100 MPH feel like 50 MPH while the Fiero 100 MPH felt like 150 MPH. I have had both to the track.

As for the Magazine they are there to do two things. Sell Magazines and Make money. I know because my work was one of the largest advertisers in many magazine. They often would publish stories straight up and at times they favored who is spending money in their magazine. We got a lot of press the more we spent. But with that said there was no organized conspiracy on the Fiero as much of what was brought to it was due to real issues and the lack of response to counter it by GM.

As for the Fires what brought that on was the fact if most cars caught fire only the windshield forward burned and that was it. With the Fiero once the hood over the engine caught the entire car went. This led to many dramatic photos on the web and on the nightly news that created its own narrative.

While the press did not help it was not what killed the Fiero. GM killed the Fiero and specifically the Chevy people saw to it. No media created that conflict.

I used to think like you but as time went on and the more people from the Fiero program I met and the more I learned about the media I finally learned the truth.

Same on a well tuned car. Once you drive one you will know it.

Even some of the big dollar cars are not perfect either. Not everyone gets it right all the time.


Skybax JAN 24, 08:00 AM

quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

I would be interested in seeing a comparison between the MR2 and the Fiero;



I've seen that comparison a lot actually, obviously they are both affordable mid-engine cars from the same era, direct competition, and the MR2 has some advantages over the Fiero for the average consumer... However the MR2 never had the look, feel, or sound of an exotic like the Fiero GT, and the MR2 is much smaller and lighter making it feel more like an economy car. The Fiero GT is similar in size and weight to the mid-engine exotics of the era, and actually had a longer wheels base than the 308... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...077736-29.html#p1142

[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 01-24-2022).]

Skybax JAN 24, 08:13 AM

quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

Even some of the big dollar cars are not perfect either. Not everyone gets it right all the time.




That's an understatement, they are often the most problematic.
hyperv6 JAN 24, 08:05 PM

quote
Originally posted by Skybax:


No question it played a factor, media still doing it today X1000 with current events. Yes I agree there were other contributing factors like insurance cost in late 80's, however talking about the Corvette threat specifically...

On the back end, the Corvette threat was a very real problem with plenty of evidence to back it up. People often misunderstand it... its not as simple as Corvette vs Fiero because there are many buyers who would still prefer a Corvette. The problem was, looking at a 1988 GT, what was accomplished in a very short time, what was being tested and on the drawing boards, and a potential 1994 Fiero GT mid-engine 2-seater sports car that outperforms the Corvette in 8 out of 9 categories for 40% less cost, now THAT was the biggest problem they had to deal with at that present time. ( not 1984 4-cyl engine fires because that was a thing of the past, not profits because it was still profitable, and not sales because Corvette sales were in the gutter... https://www.corvsport.com/c...e-sales-volume-year/ )





Many never knew the Corvette was canceled before the C5 arrived. GM killed it. But the manager of the program kept alive and hidden like the Fiero was and once it was done it did get the go ahead though the manager paid for it with his future at GM.

The Corvette even as a favored model still has to present a business case and has to make money.

The Corvette people killed the car as nothing else was fatal.
hyperv6 JAN 24, 08:13 PM

quote
Originally posted by Skybax:


I've seen that comparison a lot actually, obviously they are both affordable mid-engine cars from the same era, direct competition, and the MR2 has some advantages over the Fiero for the average consumer... However the MR2 never had the look, feel, or sound of an exotic like the Fiero GT, and the MR2 is much smaller and lighter making it feel more like an economy car. The Fiero GT is similar in size and weight to the mid-engine exotics of the era, and actually had a longer wheels base than the 308... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...077736-29.html#p1142




The first gen MR2 was ugly. But it was light and very toss-able. It would run but it needed RPM.

The second gen looked better but was still not a distinctive design.

Both suffered much from rust and maintenance. I think it is by 80k miles you need to replace what they call the hose from Hell. $8 hose that required the engine to be pulled. And while out the timing belts need changed as well the water pump. The problem was by the time many needed this work they were not worth the cost of the work.

It was not the Toyota you drove for ever with out work.

Also it is recommended to have the turbo checked while out.

This is why so few are around today in many areas.

Kind of like the X1/9. Fun car to drive but Rust and maintenance killed many of them.
reinhart JAN 25, 07:04 AM
It isn't as simple as Corvette sales being robbed by Fiero sales. Corvette was sold for twice the cost of the top end Fiero. The profit margin on the Corvette was much higher. I don't know the exact numbers but if GM were making a profit of $5000 per corvette and $500 per Fiero, and GM sees a turbo Fiero with midengine and better handling on the test track, it's pretty obvious what's going to happen if they realize which way customers were going to go. Especially since at this time GM was hemmoraging $.
hyperv6 JAN 25, 07:45 AM

quote
Originally posted by reinhart:

It isn't as simple as Corvette sales being robbed by Fiero sales. Corvette was sold for twice the cost of the top end Fiero. The profit margin on the Corvette was much higher. I don't know the exact numbers but if GM were making a profit of $5000 per corvette and $500 per Fiero, and GM sees a turbo Fiero with midengine and better handling on the test track, it's pretty obvious what's going to happen if they realize which way customers were going to go. Especially since at this time GM was hemmoraging $.



Here was the problem. Sales were in a massive decline on the C4 model and Chevy fears any more erosion would result in the car being canceled. Proof that this was a real fear was the real cancelation a few years later.

The general rule in the industry is when money is short the sports cars are the first to go. No profit and low profit is a hall mark of affordable sports cars unlike a Ferrari that has a major mark up.

Here is the Corvette death and return story.

https://www.caranddriver.co...ction-twice-feature/