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How to make rear coil-overs using factory struts, with pics. by fierohoho
Started on: 02-11-2004 03:17 PM
Replies: 484 (75247 views)
Last post by: ltlfrari on 08-17-2018 11:19 AM
jstricker
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Report this Post12-08-2007 08:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just a point of information for some folks. Yesterday I was working on some other things in the shop and I saw my rear stock springs laying on the floor off the race car. Now I say "stock" because they are factory, but they are factory WS6 springs and, IIRC, supposedly the highest rate available from the factory based on the tag on the spring.

I made a little fixture in the press to see how heavy the springs were. When I was done, they ended up measuring about 170#/in deflection. I thought that was pretty light so I went to my spare parts bin and rummaged around and found another set of stock rear springs. I don't know what their spring number was and they are, most likely, off an '84 4 cyl/auto car. They measured at 145#/in deflection.

I bring this up because in parts of the thread people are talking about spring rates anywhere from 200 to 300 pounds, so people have an idea of what the stock springs actually were. When we did this conversion on the roadster a couple years ago, we went with 250# springs just on a guess because of the small block Chevy in the back. It is not too stiff, I don't think. I intend to run about 275# or 300# springs in the rear of the race car, with the stock front WS6 springs cut one coil and a spring rubber in each side, which should stiffen the front springs up by about 30% or so, give or take.

John Stricker

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FieroGT42
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Report this Post12-19-2007 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Sooooo... logically, 7 in threaded collars would allow more height adjustment? Most places ahve the same price for 5" or 7".

And 12" springs allow stock height, 10" springs are better for a moderate drop but still can be adjusted to stock ride height with 7" collars... or not? I want to make sure I know exactly what I need to get.

And are these in pairs or single wheel kits...? Because they only show parts for a single wheel on most websites, but I found one that said it was for a pair of wheels for about the same price as everywhere else.

[This message has been edited by FieroGT42 (edited 12-19-2007).]

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shermdizzle
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Report this Post12-19-2007 11:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for shermdizzleClick Here to visit shermdizzle's HomePageClick Here to Email shermdizzleSend a Private Message to shermdizzleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

i don't wanna sound stupid

but using this method, how would i go about lowering the car about an inch or 2

and also, is this as good as buying a new coil-over kit?

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Report this Post12-20-2007 12:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

.

[This message has been edited by FieroGT42 (edited 03-16-2011).]

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Report this Post12-20-2007 08:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just got done converting the Koni's on the race car.

7" tubes, made to fit over 2" OD shock bodies.
12" Carrera 250# Springs.
I have over 2" of drop available to me with just the springs touching and unloaded. Total drop would probably be over 3" before the nuts got close to the base, maybe more.

Cut the perches off as close as comfortable with plasma cutter. Chucked the body in the lathe and turned the rest of the perch off. Turned the shock body top nut down so it was 2.050" which made took a few layers of paint off the body, maybe a little more than that. For those not familiar, the upper end of the Koni body is larger than the bottom where it bolts to the knuckle, and the nut that holds the seal in is larger yet. If you simply bore the tube out it would be very thin.

As it was, after getting the body to 2.050", the tubes would not slip over so I threw the tubes in the oven at 400F for an hour and then they did just drop over fine. Anything over about 400 is going to cause discoloring of whatever color the tube is and if they're not high quality, it might happen at a lower temperature.

All of my parts came from Speedway Motors. They cost a little more, but if you buy more than $400 total, and I needed other stuff, shipping is free and they are overnight to me UPS Ground. They also only care top quality stuff.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroGT42:

Sooooo... logically, 7 in threaded collars would allow more height adjustment? Most places ahve the same price for 5" or 7".

And 12" springs allow stock height, 10" springs are better for a moderate drop but still can be adjusted to stock ride height with 7" collars... or not? I want to make sure I know exactly what I need to get.

And are these in pairs or single wheel kits...? Because they only show parts for a single wheel on most websites, but I found one that said it was for a pair of wheels for about the same price as everywhere else.



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Report this Post12-23-2007 04:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for shermdizzleClick Here to visit shermdizzle's HomePageClick Here to Email shermdizzleSend a Private Message to shermdizzleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

so, how would i go about making an adjustable coilover? thats what i really wanna know.....how about an adjustable coilover-able to drop it 3 inches?

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Report this Post12-23-2007 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just do what's outlined in this thread. Of course you're only going to have about 3 inches of suspension travel, but it's your car.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by shermdizzle:

so, how would i go about making an adjustable coilover? thats what i really wanna know.....how about an adjustable coilover-able to drop it 3 inches?


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Report this Post12-23-2007 10:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for shermdizzleClick Here to visit shermdizzle's HomePageClick Here to Email shermdizzleSend a Private Message to shermdizzleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

so how big of a sleeve/ring would i need to use to get that much of a drop?

and also, i heard that aluminum adjustable coilover's are bad, because the aluminum will seize together, is that so with this mod?

and one last thing-how do you adjust the height-with an allen wrench?

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Report this Post12-23-2007 11:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by shermdizzle:

so how big of a sleeve/ring would i need to use to get that much of a drop?


2" ID, 7" long sleeve.

 
quote
Originally posted by shermdizzle:
and also, i heard that aluminum adjustable coilover's are bad, because the aluminum will seize together, is that so with this mod?


So what else would you like to use? Any metal can seize, aluminum is no different.

 
quote
Originally posted by shermdizzle:
and one last thing-how do you adjust the height-with an allen wrench?


The allen screw is to lock the setting once you get it where you want it. You need to look at the pictures in this thread and most of your questions will be answered.

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Report this Post12-24-2007 12:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for shermdizzleClick Here to visit shermdizzle's HomePageClick Here to Email shermdizzleSend a Private Message to shermdizzleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

hey mr stricker, believe it or not, everyone learns differently

i am more of a visual/listener-show me and tell me how to do it-i need to actually see the whole process and see how to do everything-this is why i am asking so many questions

i have gone through this post more than you will know, and i'm still confused, thats why i'm asking so many questions

i appreciate your answers and your help, but it doesn't really seem like you are being to patient, rather giving me short "LOOK, STUPID, HERES THE ANSWER" answers

i know that all metal seizes, i have heard that this is especially so with the aluminum, when the dirt and grime from driving gets in there it becomes next to impossible to adjust (see, i did my homework) so, what i meant to ask, is: if this does tend to sieze or get stuck more than *anything* else ( i say anything, because i don't know what other type of metal is used on coil-overs or sleeves)what is it, where can i get it. if it is just as likely to seize as anything else, what can i use to prevent it from seizing/gettin crap stuck in it

i'm sorry for not being clear enough

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shermdizzle
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Report this Post12-24-2007 12:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for shermdizzleClick Here to visit shermdizzle's HomePageClick Here to Email shermdizzleSend a Private Message to shermdizzleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

and also, how adjustable would the height be with the 7" sleeve

what i mean to say here, is how much will i be able to drop it/lift it?

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Report this Post12-24-2007 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for shermdizzleClick Here to visit shermdizzle's HomePageClick Here to Email shermdizzleSend a Private Message to shermdizzleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

?

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Report this Post12-24-2007 11:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fffttt1Click Here to Email fffttt1Send a Private Message to fffttt1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I built my own coil overs using Monroe Sensi Trak struts and the usual aluminum sleeves, QA1 12" coils etc. They were easy to build, and a little research on stock spring rates led me to use 250 lb/in. springs. They seem to be just right for the stock 2.8 V6 with a front sway bar mounted @ the rear. I thought of switching to 300 lb/in. springs just 'cause everyone seems to use them, but I think that they would "over power" the rebound on the Monroe struts. I'm happy with what I've built!!
Thanks, Ray.

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Report this Post01-24-2008 12:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BMTFIEROClick Here to Email BMTFIEROSend a Private Message to BMTFIEROEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Bump for the newbie

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Ok I am planning on doing this for my wife's car. I have 5 inch threaded collars that I got pretty much for free as I am selling the struts/springs they came on for more than what I paid for the struts, springs and collars. Now I plan on running 300lbs springs. I think I have 325lbs springs on my IMSA Held set-up and they ride nice. My problem is what struts to get. I hear that the KYB's are that great. But what else is there? I know of the Koni's. I have them on the IMSA Held set-up on my IMSA and they need a bigger diameter collar. Or is that just on the adjustables? Any advice is welcomed and appreciated.

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Report this Post01-30-2008 06:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Steven SnyderClick Here to visit Steven Snyder's HomePageClick Here to Email Steven SnyderSend a Private Message to Steven SnyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

For 88 spring rates, here is the most accurate information:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050119-2-054238.html
All 88 front springs: 205.5 lbs/in
All 88 rear springs: 142.7 lbs/in
This is based off the GM manufacturing prints for the springs as well as measurements taken by others. See the link above.

 
quote
Originally posted by luckyfasteddie:
I have followed this thread with great interest. I have a 88 Fiero engine in the back of my 39 Chevy pickup ratrod. my unit weighs 100lbs in front and 1950 in the back -pretty close to a real Fiero I think


I assume you mean 1000 lb front weight?
Anyway, 1950 lbs rear axle weight is much heavier rear weight than a stock Fiero. An 88 Fiero is around 1550 rear 1150 front. Mine with a 3.4 DOHC V6 weighed 1650 rear. It's a heavier engine than the stock 88 Fiero engine. With that extra 400 lbs over the rear its no surprise you ha to up the spring rate! Stock 88 Fiero rear spring rate is 142lb/in.

[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 01-30-2008).]

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Report this Post01-30-2008 06:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SaxmanClick Here to visit Saxman's HomePageClick Here to Email SaxmanSend a Private Message to SaxmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Is anyone making these for sale? Just wondering since I have all the rear end out of my Formula and I need new struts anyway. I'm just wondering what the price difference is.

Thanks!

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Report this Post01-30-2008 06:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Steven SnyderClick Here to visit Steven Snyder's HomePageClick Here to Email Steven SnyderSend a Private Message to Steven SnyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Held and WCF sell kits specifically for the Fiero. I think there are a few other vendors as well.

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Report this Post01-30-2008 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SaxmanClick Here to visit Saxman's HomePageClick Here to Email SaxmanSend a Private Message to SaxmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Steven Snyder:

Held and WCF sell kits specifically for the Fiero. I think there are a few other vendors as well.


Thanks, but I was looking for somone who is building one of these cheaper alternatives - and selling it cheaper than Held and WCF. Even buying all the parts together would help me out. I never have enough time to get these things together.

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Report this Post01-30-2008 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Send me some struts and I'll cut/turn the perches off for you and send them back to you. All it will cost you is the shipping.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Saxman:


Thanks, but I was looking for somone who is building one of these cheaper alternatives - and selling it cheaper than Held and WCF. Even buying all the parts together would help me out. I never have enough time to get these things together.


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Report this Post01-31-2008 07:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SaxmanClick Here to visit Saxman's HomePageClick Here to Email SaxmanSend a Private Message to SaxmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:

Send me some struts and I'll cut/turn the perches off for you and send them back to you. All it will cost you is the shipping.

John Stricker


I imagine shipping costs will take the total price up to where the other finished coilovers are, but if I get in a pinch, I'll let you know.

You da man, John! Thanks!

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 01-31-2008).]

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Report this Post01-31-2008 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Probably not, if you want new struts I could probably just pick up what you wanted, cut off the perches, and then ship them to you. Depends on what you want, it would save shipping at least ONE way. I've been happy with several brands. In my order of preference, they are Koni's, KYB, then Sensatrac's. Not surprisingly, that's also the order of pricing, most expensive to least expensive. PM me if you want to work this out. The Konis need a little more machining on the body and the 2" ID tubes have to be heated to almost 450 to slip over the belled top of the struts, but they DID go over the Koni's on the race car. It did take the anodized finish off of the sleeves though.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Saxman:


I imagine shipping costs will take the total price up to where the other finished coilovers are, but if I get in a pinch, I'll let you know.

You da man, John! Thanks!



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Report this Post01-31-2008 08:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by shermdizzle:

i appreciate your answers and your help, but it doesn't really seem like you are being to patient, rather giving me short "LOOK, STUPID, HERES THE ANSWER" answers

i know that all metal seizes, i have heard that this is especially so with the aluminum, when the dirt and grime from driving gets in there it becomes next to impossible to adjust (see, i did my homework) so, what i meant to ask, is: if this does tend to sieze or get stuck more than *anything* else ( i say anything, because i don't know what other type of metal is used on coil-overs or sleeves)what is it, where can i get it. if it is just as likely to seize as anything else, what can i use to prevent it from seizing/gettin crap stuck in it

i'm sorry for not being clear enough



I also apologize for seeming to be a little short with you. I don't know of any steel sleeves being made and that would really be the only other material. You have to remember that it's not something you're going to normally change every day on a STREET car. It does get adjusted regularly on a race car to put wedge in the car, but normally once you set your ride height on a street car, you leave it alone. The threads are fairly coarse and while I'm sure it CAN seize, I haven't had one do it to me yet.

There are a lot of pictures in this thread and I don't know what else one could add to it, but if there is a particular step in the process you're unclear of, post it and I'm sure that someone can either post a picture or point you to one in the thread that you might have missed.

No matter what material, to drop the car 3" you are taking about 50% of the travel out of your strut and that translates into leaving about 3" of suspension travel before bottoming. It's also going to make the car extremely difficult to drive on the street through dips and over speed bumps, so be aware of that as well. You're also going to have to lower the front end a like amount, naturally, or the car will ride WAY nose high. a 3" drop on springs alone means some lowering springs (and I don't know of any of those that will give you 3" of drop) or cutting at least 2 1/2 coils off your front springs. That will put the suspension nearly on the front bump stops as well so they will need to be trimmed or removed.

It's your car, make it to your desire, but just consider the practicality of what you're doing while youre at it.

John Stricker

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Report this Post01-31-2008 10:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SaxmanClick Here to visit Saxman's HomePageClick Here to Email SaxmanSend a Private Message to SaxmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks, John. I will check out the struts and other parts I need and get back to you. I also need to look this thread over a little closer to get a better understanding of how these go together - and where to get the other parts needed.

I want to do this one the 84 V8 Fino for sure, but I'm not sure if it is worth it on the 88 Formula because I may be putting it up for sale to fund the Fino improvements.

Thanks again!

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quote
Originally posted by Saxman:


Thanks, but I was looking for somone who is building one of these cheaper alternatives - and selling it cheaper than Held and WCF. Even buying all the parts together would help me out. I never have enough time to get these things together.



If you wanted to and were willing to drive to Pa. I could help you out making them. All you would need was the sleves and springs. I know how to do it just not which struts are best. Guess I will go with the koni's

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Report this Post01-31-2008 01:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just so you know, to use the 2" ID sleeves you almost MUST have a lathe to turn the tops down on the struts, the Koni's are belled at the top.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by The_Stickman2:
If you wanted to and were willing to drive to Pa. I could help you out making them. All you would need was the sleves and springs. I know how to do it just not which struts are best. Guess I will go with the koni's




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quote
Originally posted by jstricker:

Just so you know, to use the 2" ID sleeves you almost MUST have a lathe to turn the tops down on the struts, the Koni's are belled at the top.

John Stricker


Yea i kinda knew that. I have a set on my IMSA but was hoping thye changed that. Guess not.

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Report this Post05-03-2008 05:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NashvilleFieroSend a Private Message to NashvilleFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The rubber belt that he used can be purchased at Tractor Supply. I saw it there.

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What really matters is the size of your Flux Capacitor...

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quote
Originally posted by fierohoho:

At this point you now have the spring removed by someone else unless you had the correct equipment/skills to do it yourself.

I tried using an impact with a 21mm socket to remove the top nut that holds the upper retainer plate to the strut shaft, I then had to use a 21mm wrench on the nut and a 10mm wrench on the shaft to remove the nut as the shaft spun with the impact.


The next pic shows the coil retainer "A" and upper spring perch "B" along with 2 washers and the 21mm nut.

The small bushing on the right is actually the center of the dust boot, it had seperated from the boot.


The next pic shows the spring, rubber cushion from the upper spring perch and the dust boot, all of which are no longer needed.


The next pic shows the bare strut.

You need to remove the lower spring perch from the tube and grind the top of the strut to the same diameter as the tube.

Just Dremel, file or grind the weld away to remove the perch, try not to put too much heat into the tube just to be safe and don't grind a hole through the side of the tube.


Don't you need a spring compressor? Isn't that spring a loaded gun at this point?
Brit

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What really matters is the size of your Flux Capacitor...

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Report this Post05-10-2008 10:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for falcon_caClick Here to Email falcon_caSend a Private Message to falcon_caEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Those rusted things are small springs compressors people installe to lower their car without changing or even removing the springs.

The springs were probably already enough compressed by those to avoid the need to use a spring compressor here.

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fierohoho
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Report this Post05-11-2008 12:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierohohoClick Here to Email fierohohoSend a Private Message to fierohohoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

You are correct, to play it safe once you get the struts out take them to a service station and pay a couple bucks to have them taken apart safely.

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RCR
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Report this Post06-07-2008 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

What part number for the Sensa-Tracs? The ones I just looked at (for 84 Fiero) could not be modified for use. It had a feature at the end that couldn't be removed that was larger than the strut diameter.

Bob

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sjmaye
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Report this Post06-07-2008 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sjmayeSend a Private Message to sjmayeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Steven Snyder:

For 88 spring rates, here is the most accurate information:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050119-2-054238.html
All 88 front springs: 205.5 lbs/in
All 88 rear springs: 142.7 lbs/in
This is based off the GM manufacturing prints for the springs as well as measurements taken by others. See the link above.



If stock rear springs for a v6 are 142lb/in why are many looking for 250lb/in?

I just want some lowered and ride stiffness similar to stock.

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RCR
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Report this Post06-07-2008 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by sjmaye:


If stock rear springs for a v6 are 142lb/in why are many looking for 250lb/in?

I just want some lowered and ride stiffness similar to stock.


I'm going to use 300# QA1's because I no longer have the stock drivetrain. I have a 4.0 Aurora with the boat anchor sized 4L80E.

Bob

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RCR
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Report this Post06-08-2008 08:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

bump for a part number...

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sjmaye
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Report this Post06-10-2008 04:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sjmayeSend a Private Message to sjmayeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by sjmaye:


If stock rear springs for a v6 are 142lb/in why are many looking for 250lb/in?

I just want some lowered and ride stiffness similar to stock.


Bump. Can someone explain? Seems 250# springs would be stiff as compared to stock.

[This message has been edited by sjmaye (edited 06-10-2008).]

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ICouldaBeenAV8
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Report this Post06-10-2008 02:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ICouldaBeenAV8Click Here to Email ICouldaBeenAV8Send a Private Message to ICouldaBeenAV8Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Imagine a stock spring with a rate of 150 lbs./in. of compression. Say total movement of the suspension is maximum 6 in. in full compression. That would be 900 lbs. of force to compress the suspension fully as designed. If you lower the car 2 in. you are left with 4 in. of total movement before fully compressed. To prevent the suspension from bottoming out prematurely, you would want at least 900 lbs. force to still be required to fully compress the springs. So your new springs would probably be rated at 225 lbs./in. as a starting point. Your street ride is compromised to some degree no if ands or butts. Spring makers have some tricks to moderate this but they increase cost and I doubt that is done for Fiero springs. We are after all, the cheapest hobby car owners in the known universe.

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sjmaye
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Report this Post06-10-2008 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sjmayeSend a Private Message to sjmayeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I understand. Thanks for the explanation!

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sjmaye
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Report this Post07-20-2008 02:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sjmayeSend a Private Message to sjmayeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fierohoho:

I tried using an impact with a 21mm socket to remove the top nut that holds the upper retainer plate to the strut shaft, I then had to use a 21mm wrench on the nut and a 10mm wrench on the shaft to remove the nut as the shaft spun with the impact.




Anyone else have problems getting this nut to break free?

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sjmaye
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Report this Post07-20-2008 03:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sjmayeSend a Private Message to sjmayeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Finally! PB Blaster, impact wrench, elbow grease. Finally got it.

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