I just got a good deal on a new K&N air filter for my 4.5L
I now return you to "As the Fiero turns"
sorry. just trying to lighten it up in here,,,,Just rememberfolks,,this is the internet, and there will always be trolls, and if you feed them they come back, if you don't, they go away and look for atention elsewhere.
I still think your all (well 99.5% of you) are really great ppl and have a wealth of information to share with us newbies. I'm glad to be part of this site and really, the amount of flaming that goes on here is minimul given the # of useres.
I still say KEN86GT and Colin have the right idea. Ignore the trolls. I mean literally shut them out. Don't respond to them. Don't debate with them. Don't even acknowledge their existance unless they make a valid contribution to the subject at hand. If you take away their power, which in this case is their ability to get you guys steamed, they WILL go away. I know it's hard for high profile guys like Archie to keep letting this garbage roll off their backs and there are times when specific accusations have to be addressed (i.e. business related) but for most of it we need to band together and treat them with the one thing they can't stand. Silence!
You know, Punisher is ALWAYS insinuating that someone is gay, or, as he puts it, ghey. Why is that important to him? Is he projecting his deepest desires? Hey, Pun, do you have something ya wanna tell us about? C'mon, you can tell us...after all, you're safe behind your keyboard...it's not like any of us can "out" you or anything...
it is 2 guys sharing the same username. maybe they share other things?
i did laugh when i saw the picture. like punisher or not they're funny.
people complaining bout trolls are as much to blame. you keep egging them on and encouraging more. it's entertainment and they know they can get to you and get you mad. try using the back button instead of the reply button.
I still say KEN86GT and Colin have the right idea. Ignore the trolls. I mean literally shut them out. Don't respond to them. Don't debate with them. Don't even acknowledge their existance unless they make a valid contribution to the subject at hand. If you take away their power, which in this case is their ability to get you guys steamed, they WILL go away. I know it's hard for high profile guys like Archie to keep letting this garbage roll off their backs and there are times when specific accusations have to be addressed (i.e. business related) but for most of it we need to band together and treat them with the one thing they can't stand. Silence!
I agree... save the debates for our politicians, and O/T threads... (j/k)
When we start fighting among ourselves, we weaking the very foundation and reason this forum is here..... Our love for a cool little car.
There will always be unhappy people, the key is not letting them effect you.
It's like when an accident happens and none of the bystanders can be bothered to call 911, but everybody complains why it takes so long for the police and paramedics to get there.
LMAO ha ha thats a good example ha ha!!! anyhoo hey Cliff Is there a way to put a button on each thread that says "warn" or something of that nature? Iv seen it on alot of other forums and was asking so then when some of the members see it getting to outa hand they click it and it sends a PM directing to where the problem is... just a suggestion I almost think your like the "BIG BOSS" so thats why I kinda felt intimidated to email you with stuff like this cuz useally if ya have a problem at work...ya dont go to the CEO because your stapler doesnt work
How about a way to ignore a user entirely? Sort of like the ratings button but if we hit this button we don't see anything from that user... That would be a good way to shut the trolls down.
And I'm sorry that all people can get from my posting his e-mail is that I was "complaining" or "egging him on". Honestly I thought it was funny that he thought sending out personal e-mail attacks would do him any good.. Read the first post. I asked for other people who were similarly attacked to share their attacks... The troublemakers turned this thread into something that it never should have been.. as they usually do.
Good point, Cliff. I've thought abuot reporting posts in the past, or returning banned users, but I never did because I figured you'd already know about it or you probably get dozens of complaints about the same thread, etc. already.
I guess it's a case of everyone assuming everyone else will take care of it. Thank you for calling that to our attention.
I agree with Songmans original post here. I own a forum where we have constant trolls. When one gets banned they get abusive. Some to the point of making threats. It's perfectly reasonable for him to ask if anyone else has had this issue. One email to AOL about a user is one thing. MULTIPLE emails to AOL will get the job done and the user kicked from their service.
I generally ignore the "worthless" stuff. What I can't understand is some of the worst offenders of useless stuff are actually quite knowledgeable. As a person gets older (and supposedly wiser) they either figure out that tact goes a long way in life, or get stuck in a belligerent, argumentative rut. IMHO this forum is a good reflection of the way our society is today.
------------------ Tim Red 88 Formula Auto 2.8 100K+ Miles
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence!
Good point, Cliff. I've thought abuot reporting posts in the past, or returning banned users, but I never did because I figured you'd already know about it or you probably get dozens of complaints about the same thread, etc. already.
I guess it's a case of everyone assuming everyone else will take care of it. Thank you for calling that to our attention.
Ditto.
Any way to add a 'Notify Mod' button or something?
------------------ Patrick W. Heinske -- LZeitgeist@aol.com 1988 Red Fiero Formula Convertible
I appreciate the kind words ("too fair" and "too nice" are compliments in my book), but that isn't the only problem. The problem is that most of the banned members that get back, get back because I didn't "catch" them getting back. Like I've said before, I have a few things in place that help me determine if a new registration is likely a banned member re-registering.
This works pretty well - I would even say that I catch a banned member 4 out of 5 times. Problem of course is that if a banned member tries hard enough, he will eventually get back on.
For instance, "bookster" was banned and he got right back on. I did not catch that. None of the things I have in place raised a red flag. On the other hand, I did catch another member trying to register while his username wasn't banned yet (but very, very close).
Others I let back on if either some period of time has elapsed, or if they show some kind of remorse. "I'm Back" was let back on because it had been quite some time since he was banned (I think it was a few years). "The Punisher" was let back on because he (they) convinced me they would stay out of trouble this time and again because it had been a few years since he was banned.
Others got back on because I never noticed they re-registered. But it's not only my responsibility to catch them. It's yours (the members) as well. I often read these messages on the forum where people are complaining that I let a certain member back on, yet they have done nothing themselves to let me know they were back on. You want to know how many heads-ups I've received the past year from members warning me user "X" is in reality banned member "Y"? One. Yes, a single one.
I just banned the new username of "bookster" yesterday. Not because somebody told me this was in fact bookster, but because I read in a thread somewhere that somebody was complaining I had let him back on. So again, complaining I let him back on but not taking the trouble of emailing or PM me that bookster was in fact back on.
You know, it's easy to point the finger at me for the trouble fomerly banned members are causing. But there are only a very few people here that are actively helping me trying to keep this place clean. And with "helping", I'm not talking about mentioning something in one of the few thousand new messages that are posted here every day. I'm talking about warning me through email or PM if a thread gets out of hand, or if they have spotted a banned member with a new username. Apparantly, people not only expect me to read every single message here on the forum, they also expect me to do a background check of every member that registers. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to do that. Ever.
I know it's getting old, but I will say it again. PFF is mostly a self-moderating forum. That means it's your responsibility too to keep this place clean. There are over 10,000 members. PFF is being visited by more than 1000 unique visitors each and every day. At any given day, around 500 members post a message. Yet there's only ONE member that regularly warns me when he sees a thread (or member) getting out of hand.
It's like when an accident happens and none of the bystanders can be bothered to call 911, but everybody complains why it takes so long for the police and paramedics to get there.
Ok. I had thought from posts that you had made several months ago that you were confident that your systems would/could catch virtualy every booted member that wanted to get back on with a new name. I didn't realize that you wanted/needed help from the rest of us. Besides before reading your reponse I would have guessed that you were getting numerous EMails about virtually every big & small problem. I'm probaly like everyone else when I've seen things you shoulda heard about & thought to myself that someone else would let you know.
My main concern is that as these clowns go thru more & more threads on PFF, depositing their drivel as they go, they begin to bring PFF down to the level of most other Internet Forums. I still don't understand completely why, when you know the damage these guys are doing, you don't just remove them. I don't get it, they are posting graffiti all over the side of this Bridge you've worked so hard to build & you're "too fair" and "too nice" to do anything about it. We vote them off, they beg you to get back on with promises to behave as soon as you let them back on they start badmouthing & abusing you. Like a Preacher, you refuse to raise your hand, you'll let them destroy the home you've built because you want to be the nice guy. Would you rather be a leader or a martyr?
I visit this forum everyday to see what's new in the Fiero world, I post what's new at my place on here before I even put it on my own web site. I love what you've built here. I hate it when I see you & your work being abused by those that would tear it down. I'm sure other people on here feel the same way I do, but like me they've been slow to speak up out of respect for you.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 10-06-2004).]
i sent you one but it wasn't for any particular person. i've heard that if a board or site has too much negativity (i think like language or something), you can't get to it from certain places. i've noticed since about the first of the year i can't get to the forum if i'm on a military base. i get a secure computing screen.
Yeah & there are several more. The good thing is that several of the people you named aren't capable of or can't figure out how to "Tag" every thread with stupid pictures. The only polute threads with their words & actions & not their grafiti.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 10-07-2004).]
I still don't understand completely why, when you know the damage these guys are doing, you don't just remove them. I don't get it, they are posting graffiti all over the side of this Bridge you've worked so hard to build & you're "too fair" and "too nice" to do anything about it. We vote them off, they beg you to get back on with promises to behave as soon as you let them back on they start badmouthing & abusing you. Like a Preacher, you refuse to raise your hand, you'll let them destroy the home you've built because you want to be the nice guy. Would you rather be a leader or a martyr?
I visit this forum everyday to see what's new in the Fiero world, I post what's new at my place on here before I even put it on my own web site. I love what you've built here. I hate it when I see you & your work being abused by those that would tear it down. I'm sure other people on here feel the same way I do, but like me they've been slow to speak up out of respect for you.
Archie
i totally understand what your saying and feeling.
this caught my attention" you'll let them destroy the home you've built because you want to be the nice guy. Would you rather be a leader or a martyr?" freedom and power are touchy things.Cliff certainly has the power to do anything he wants but it seems to me he has given that power to us.He leaves our freedom in our hands. He built the house and he set some standards but we live in it and we should not make a mess and we should keep it clean. Being the nice guy and being the forum dictator.I don't think there is a middle.I think the only uncoruptable governance is one where the people involved run the show and take the fall when they skrew up.They can only blame themselves so problems tend to get fixed instead of just blaming the leaders.
I also have always assumed Cliff would be bogged down with PMs about every little thing.I have only PMed him twice.Once for a important personal favor and once to say sorry for picking on some one.I never really wanted to bother him as it seems most everybody felt the same way. I hope for his sake he didn't just open the flood gates from PM h*ll.
I wish our government could run things this way.
------------------ PLAY HARD-DIE FAST And folks always remember to eat before driving on the coast.If you fly off the cliff and no one finds you the only thing worse than knowing you are going to bleed to death alone is to do it hungry.
I know it's getting old, but I will say it again. PFF is mostly a self-moderating forum. That means it's your responsibility too to keep this place clean. There are over 10,000 members. PFF is being visited by more than 1000 unique visitors each and every day. At any given day, around 500 members post a message. Yet there's only ONE member that regularly warns me when he sees a thread (or member) getting out of hand.
It's like when an accident happens and none of the bystanders can be bothered to call 911, but everybody complains why it takes so long for the police and paramedics to get there.
Cliff,
I think part of the problem is how at least I and possibly others understand "self moderating forum". Personally I would take that to mean leave you out of it and whatever happens, happens. There are a few rules that you have set up that are regularly ignored, there is nothing that any of us can do to enforce the rules. It is impossible for us to be the police. You are the only person here that has the authority to enforce anything. The few times someone has stood up to the trolls they get blasted with posts telling them to shut up and mind their own business (generally with language that also breaks the rules).
In your example of the people all watching the accident and no one calling 911 (do you have 911 there too? I guess I always thought that was a US thing) if they were self policing they would have helped out at the accident, not stood back and called the police. Do you want us to tell you? I would have thought that you would be getting hundreds of email a day just about the few people on here that are causing trouble. Self policing would mean to me to NOT be telling you, but for us to handle it without you.
I have an idea, possibly you will like it. You are currently only banning people that are mass voted against. All they really need is a few troll buddies to give a few +'s and they get to stay. There seems to be a problem if you want the quality of the forum to stay high. If everyone was a troll then everyone would have a great rating and there would be nothing but bickering and swearing at each other. How about if you gave people that caused trouble (like posting pornographic images and such) a mark against them. To many marks in a period of time and they get to harass other forums for a while. Then there would be two systems in place. The rating bar and a demerit system. Heck, I'll bet Archie would even run it for you. LOL
I know I'll get a negative or two, but I feel pretty much the same way. The Punisher has actually said a few relevant items during his time here, but overall (like 99%) he's acted like a jerk to everyone. I'm pretty much sick of seeing that. Punisher, you might know somethings, but honestly, you're a POS.
LMAO, that's just plain funny. *chuckle*
Welcome, everyone, to a fine display of human nature. Thumbs up to all of you out there representing.
Ok. I had thought from posts that you had made several months ago that you were confident that your systems would/could catch virtualy every booted member that wanted to get back on with a new name.
Yes it does, but the problem is that it's not 100% fool proof.
quote
I didn't realize that you wanted/needed help from the rest of us. Besides before reading your reponse I would have guessed that you were getting numerous EMails about virtually every big & small problem.
I do get tons and tons of email and PM, but 99.99% of them are about lost passwords, questions about the Fiero, virus-mails, and the "thank you for signing up at our great pron site"-mails.
quote
I still don't understand completely why, when you know the damage these guys are doing, you don't just remove them.
There are several reasons why. The first and foremost reason is because I really want PFF to be as self-moderating as possible. Heck, that's the reason I started PFF in the first place because I thought the email lists were over-moderated. But to protect the hard work I've put into this place, I've setup a few simple forum rules. Grossly violating those rules is the only reason I will ban someone without looking at someone's ratingsbar.
quote
We vote them off, they beg you to get back on with promises to behave
Ok, I have to be really honest here. This one sentence makes me realize something I never even thought of before. I put a rating system in place so the members themselves can vote someone off, yet I make it my own decision to let someone back on. That ain't right. That ain't right at all. It would only be fair that - if the decision to boot someone is in the hands of the members - the decision to let someone back on should be in the hands of the members too. Hmmm, need to think about that one - what the best way is to implement such a thing.
quote
as soon as you let them back on they start badmouthing & abusing you. Like a Preacher, you refuse to raise your hand, you'll let them destroy the home you've built because you want to be the nice guy.
No, I don't want to be the nice guy. I just refuse to ban people for personal reasons. Yes, this is my home but I didn't build it for myself or my personal satisfaction...
quote
Would you rather be a leader or a martyr?
Neither.
quote
I'm sure other people on here feel the same way I do, but like me they've been slow to speak up out of respect for you.
Respect is fine, but you are not being disrespectful if you show your concerns through email or PM. And that's all I'm asking.
LOL-- I really dont see how I fit into this group, being that I have only posted my opinion in very few threads. I am mainly on the Forum to sale parts that I have compiled and come across to ppl in need of them(which I sale cheaper than you can find else where). I would say, if I asked everyone that I have sold parts to give me a plus, then I would be well into the green. But I am not all about the rating system, being that it is corrupt and can be played in such a way to ban members that are not liked by others because of there opinions and thoughts. Yes, I agree some ppl on the list are trolls and take over every thread but I myself have posted in only a few threads expressing my opinion and then taking the quotes I recieve back and turning them into a flaming party. But with me only stating my opinion(which I always have proof to back it up), thats just a right that I have with this being a public forum. The quotes I recieve back have been alot harsher than the opinions I have given. The rating system only works for ppl that do not express there opinions in fear of getting a negative or for well known vendors who get back from other Forum members wether that member even has a clue about whats going on. People on the Forum tend to lean toward the words of whatever side has the most going for them, basically saying, well if he is giving that member a negative or feels that way about the subject at hand, then I should too. Once again this is how I veiw the whole rating system and how it works, but again this is my own personal opinion. I have talked to several ppl in chat that have bashed me in a thread and they never knew who I was. You can ask the ones that do know me from chat, that I am just a person with an opinion that is not scared to express it. So with that being said, either one of two things will happen, either my rating will go up or down, but for me either way is fine.
[This message has been edited by MstangsBware (edited 10-07-2004).]
LOL-- I really dont see how I fit into this group, being that I have only posted my opinion in very few threads. I am mainly on the Forum to sale parts that I have compiled and come across to ppl in need of them(which I sale cheaper than you can find else where). I would say, if I asked everyone that I have sold parts to give me a plus, then I would be well into the green. But I am not all about the rating system, being that it is corrupt and can be played in such a way to ban members that are not liked by others because of there opinions and thoughts. Yes, I agree some ppl on the list are trolls and take over every thread but I myself have posted in only a few threads expressing my opinion and then taking the quotes I recieve back and turning them into a flaming party. But with me only stating my opinion(which I always have proof to back it up), thats just a right that I have with this being a public forum. The quotes I recieve back have been alot harsher than the opinions I have given. The rating system only works for ppl that do not express there opinions in fear of getting a negative or for well known vendors who get back from other Forum members wether that member even has a clue about whats going on. People on the Forum tend to lean toward the words of whatever side has the most going for them, basically saying, well if he is giving that member a negative or feels that way about the subject at hand, then I should too. Once again this is how I veiw the whole rating system and how it works, but again this is my own personal opinion. I have talked to several ppl in chat that have bashed me in a thread and they never knew who I was. You can ask the ones that do know me from chat, that I am just a person with an opinion that is not scared to express it. So with that being said, either one of two things will happen, either my rating will go up or down, but for me either way is fine.
Well from the color of you ratings bar I would guess that whne you speak your mind you don't do it in sucha way as to repect the other users feelings.
LOL-- I really dont see how I fit into this group, being that I have only posted my opinion in very few threads. I am mainly on the Forum to sale parts that I have compiled and come across to ppl in need of them(which I sale cheaper than you can find else where). I would say, if I asked everyone that I have sold parts to give me a plus, then I would be well into the green. But I am not all about the rating system, being that it is corrupt and can be played in such a way to ban members that are not liked by others because of there opinions and thoughts. Yes, I agree some ppl on the list are trolls and take over every thread but I myself have posted in only a few threads expressing my opinion and then taking the quotes I recieve back and turning them into a flaming party. But with me only stating my opinion(which I always have proof to back it up), thats just a right that I have with this being a public forum. The quotes I recieve back have been alot harsher than the opinions I have given. The rating system only works for ppl that do not express there opinions in fear of getting a negative or for well known vendors who get back from other Forum members wether that member even has a clue about whats going on. People on the Forum tend to lean toward the words of whatever side has the most going for them, basically saying, well if he is giving that member a negative or feels that way about the subject at hand, then I should too. Once again this is how I veiw the whole rating system and how it works, but again this is my own personal opinion. I have talked to several ppl in chat that have bashed me in a thread and they never knew who I was. You can ask the ones that do know me from chat, that I am just a person with an opinion that is not scared to express it. So with that being said, either one of two things will happen, either my rating will go up or down, but for me either way is fine.
M/B, it's one thing to candidly express your opinion. I, and very few others on this forum, have no problem with that. The problem, as I see it, is that most of the members of the so-called redbar brigade take it upon themselves to attack, harass, abuse, and put down, in the vilest fashion, any other member who expresses an opinion which disagrees with their way of thinking or doing things. If another member happens to like big slow-revving V-8's, that's his prerogative. Recently there was a thread about fartcan cars, in which I caught myself stuck in the same "ain't no substitute for cubic inches" bashing of the four-banger crowd...and then remembered one of my all-time favorite cars I used to own, a 944S, which would eat most V-8's for breakfast on top end. That thread got pretty ugly. I apologized for my part in it. There are as many ways of achieving horsepower as there are people out there to think up new ones. The thing is, we all like to put our horsepower and hearts into one little car once made by GM. We ought to be supporting each other, but it's hard to focus on doing that, when someone who wants to rehash a two year old gripe hijacks a thread. If you have a difference of opinion with someone, there are ways of pointing out another way of looking at something, without calling someone a homo because they happen to like a certain style taillight, or telling them they're a moron because they wanna put a four banger in their Fiero. One more thing to think about. You may not be as anonymous as you think behind your keyboard. That punch in the nose that you may have richly earned (and I'm not talking to you, M/B, as far as I know, you've been courteous in your arguments here) may catch up with you one way or another. There are too many ways to mess with people electronically in our interconnected electronic world, for me to want to piss off anyone out there; I'd really rather not find my bank account with an FBI terrorism freeze on it placed there by some hacker I pissed off here on Pennock's... Tony
------------------
"He who does not oppose evil, commands that it be done!" ----Leonardo da Vinci
Why is it that the people who say the ratings system is corrupt or that they don't give a ratz azz about the ratings system always sem to be the people who have a hard time playing with others and therefore have the red ratings bar. It has become apparent to me that certain members of the forum just don't know how to express their opinions without denigrating others or turning it into a personal attack if someone disagrees with them. I can understand that to an extent in politicaland religios threas, but it just doesn't make sense when we are discussion how to preserve, improve and/or change a vehicle we al enjoy.
I tend to stay out of contentious threads because I do enough arguing, debating and negotiatingat work, and at home with a wife and four kids for that matter, so I don't an to do it here, but I am doing it now because, like alot of people here, I spend a good portion of my fre time, and some work time to be honest, checking here for the latest news.
I have nothing against any of the people in Cali kid's list above. I have found many of their posts informative on ways to improve performance/looks/whatever,, but I have als noticed that they cannot seem to express their opinion or disagree with another point of view without trying to start a flame war, and that never made sense to me. Now to be fair, I have seen a few of the members of the forum that I respect and/or consider friends get into it and result to name calling and personal attacks, Archie and Firefox come to mind, but in my experience, that usually only occurs after they have been pushed to the point of exasperation due to attacks on thier business, in Archie's case, or incessent attacks on their sensibilities, ala Firefox and Fiero5. With the "Red Bar Brigade", the only thing necessary to set many of them off is a differing opinion, nothing more.
Additionally, it has become very clear that those who justify their actions by claims that this is a public forum and they have a right to free speech do not seem to under stand that every public forum has restrictions on and the right to free speech is not absolute and does not apply in a private forum such as this. While it is on the internet, it i still owned by Cliff therefore it is not part of the public sector and he can restrict your "right" to frre speech any way he sees fit while you are using this forum. In that regard, I have never seen anyone try to restrict the opinion of others or what they have to offer (accept for the occasional "STFU"), just the manner in which they offer it. I mean really, do you think you can walk into a public arena and just do anything without repercussions because it is a public forum? If so, the next time you are at a public sporting event, drop your pants when you are on the jumbotron and see how that works out for you. Then when you get arrested or throw out, claim they have no right to do that because it is a public forum. All civilized social forums has recognized rules of conduct, Cliff has his for this forum. They are there for everyone to read and you agreed to them when you registered as a member. It just seems that it is time to start following them.
Now, I know that the disruptive members of the forum who read this are probably going to ignore it, or possibly I may catch a few negs for this opinion, even though I tried to express myself without being abusive or offensive. Negs do matter to me because I don't want to be banned from the forum as it is an important reference are for me, where I have learned alot and made a few good friends, an hope to make more.
The above expresses the personal opinions and observations of me...ignore them, agree with them, disregard them or fold them into a paper hat for all I care.
Finally, I would like to thank Cliff for taking the time and effort to provide this forum for us. It is a fantastic tool for anyone who has a fiero to learn about them and their capabilities and to make friends and share ideas with others with a similr obsession/passion/sickness. I had only had my fiero for two days when three people had informed me of this site and I have visited regularly since that time. So thanks again and keep up the good work and the evenhanded approach to how you moderate this forum.
Okay...Rant and thanks to Cliff (or as some will nodoubtedly call it, azz kissing) over...back to our regularly scheduled programming.
This has been mentioned before and I thought this would be a good time to bring it up again. Yes it seems that we have had a run of members that have been real pains in the neck lately and certainly deserved what they got, but we still have to remember that they are only a certain percentage of the majority on here and I think for the most part the ratings system should do a pretty good job of keeping it that way. But since apparently the ratings we hand out have no time limit, we all need to try and remember to go back to our ratings every so often and review/update them. Relook at some of the ratings we have given out in the past and decide if any of them are still fair, good or bad, to a particular member based on more recent events. The idea of the ratings is as I understand it, that if a particular member is being a jerk (of course everyone has their own level of what they think that is as well as their own breaking point I'm sure) then each member can rate them accordingly. If a member is being helpfull in some way, made us chuckle, posted an article, shared pics, sold something that went well, etc etc then again each member can rate them acccordingly as well. But it is also our responsibility to make sure that a past rating is still fair and up to date for any given member. If you felt once that someone was being a jerk and rated them a neg and since they have not been that way, maybe they should be at least given a neutral or even a plus for what you see as a better attitude. I would guess that a negative at times is much easier to get and a lot harder to get changed. I wonder how many members think to go thru their ratings system every once in awhile and update it?
Well from the color of you ratings bar I would guess that whne you speak your mind you don't do it in sucha way as to repect the other users feelings.
Like I said I have only expressed my opinion in a few threads, from my opinion, it turned into a flame match from the comments I recieved back from what I posted. Yes- maybe I did disrepect or hurt someones feelings but thats usally what opinions do to ppl that cant take constructive critism. I am pretty sure I recieved most of the red from the WCF thread that turned into ppl threaten me because I useded there quotes they posted and turned them around against them. I am not here to argue with ppl but I will give my opinion when I think I should.
M/B, it's one thing to candidly express your opinion. I, and very few others on this forum, have no problem with that. The problem, as I see it, is that most of the members of the so-called redbar brigade take it upon themselves to attack, harass, abuse, and put down, in the vilest fashion, any other member who expresses an opinion which disagrees with their way of thinking or doing things. If another member happens to like big slow-revving V-8's, that's his prerogative. Recently there was a thread about fartcan cars, in which I caught myself stuck in the same "ain't no substitute for cubic inches" bashing of the four-banger crowd...and then remembered one of my all-time favorite cars I used to own, a 944S, which would eat most V-8's for breakfast on top end. That thread got pretty ugly. I apologized for my part in it. There are as many ways of achieving horsepower as there are people out there to think up new ones. The thing is, we all like to put our horsepower and hearts into one little car once made by GM. We ought to be supporting each other, but it's hard to focus on doing that, when someone who wants to rehash a two year old gripe hijacks a thread. If you have a difference of opinion with someone, there are ways of pointing out another way of looking at something, without calling someone a homo because they happen to like a certain style taillight, or telling them they're a moron because they wanna put a four banger in their Fiero. One more thing to think about. You may not be as anonymous as you think behind your keyboard. That punch in the nose that you may have richly earned (and I'm not talking to you, M/B, as far as I know, you've been courteous in your arguments here) may catch up with you one way or another. There are too many ways to mess with people electronically in our interconnected electronic world, for me to want to piss off anyone out there; I'd really rather not find my bank account with an FBI terrorism freeze on it placed there by some hacker I pissed off here on Pennock's... Tony
This is why I posted my commment above. What makes me a part of that group? I can think of only two threads that I have turned into a flame match(and that has been months ago) and off hand I can think of a dozen or more threads that others in that group have turned into flames just in the last week. So--my rating is based off two threads that I got ugly in, this kinda tells me that the rating system does not work the way it was intended to and works in the way of--Follow the Leader--. I see it if it takes 50 votes to get your rating to appear(which mine just did) that means out of the two threads that turned ugly, that almost 50 ppl had to give me a rating. I really dont see that adding up right but maybe its just me. Once again this is only my opinion and how I see the rating system.
Why is it that the people who say the ratings system is corrupt or that they don't give a ratz azz about the ratings system always sem to be the people who have a hard time playing with others and therefore have the red ratings bar. It has become apparent to me that certain members of the forum just don't know how to express their opinions without denigrating others or turning it into a personal attack if someone disagrees with them. I can understand that to an extent in politicaland religios threas, but it just doesn't make sense when we are discussion how to preserve, improve and/or change a vehicle we al enjoy.
I tend to stay out of contentious threads because I do enough arguing, debating and negotiatingat work, and at home with a wife and four kids for that matter, so I don't an to do it here, but I am doing it now because, like alot of people here, I spend a good portion of my fre time, and some work time to be honest, checking here for the latest news.
I have nothing against any of the people in Cali kid's list above. I have found many of their posts informative on ways to improve performance/looks/whatever,, but I have als noticed that they cannot seem to express their opinion or disagree with another point of view without trying to start a flame war, and that never made sense to me. Now to be fair, I have seen a few of the members of the forum that I respect and/or consider friends get into it and result to name calling and personal attacks, Archie and Firefox come to mind, but in my experience, that usually only occurs after they have been pushed to the point of exasperation due to attacks on thier business, in Archie's case, or incessent attacks on their sensibilities, ala Firefox and Fiero5. With the "Red Bar Brigade", the only thing necessary to set many of them off is a differing opinion, nothing more.
Additionally, it has become very clear that those who justify their actions by claims that this is a public forum and they have a right to free speech do not seem to under stand that every public forum has restrictions on and the right to free speech is not absolute and does not apply in a private forum such as this. While it is on the internet, it i still owned by Cliff therefore it is not part of the public sector and he can restrict your "right" to frre speech any way he sees fit while you are using this forum. In that regard, I have never seen anyone try to restrict the opinion of others or what they have to offer (accept for the occasional "STFU"), just the manner in which they offer it. I mean really, do you think you can walk into a public arena and just do anything without repercussions because it is a public forum? If so, the next time you are at a public sporting event, drop your pants when you are on the jumbotron and see how that works out for you. Then when you get arrested or throw out, claim they have no right to do that because it is a public forum. All civilized social forums has recognized rules of conduct, Cliff has his for this forum. They are there for everyone to read and you agreed to them when you registered as a member. It just seems that it is time to start following them.
Now, I know that the disruptive members of the forum who read this are probably going to ignore it, or possibly I may catch a few negs for this opinion, even though I tried to express myself without being abusive or offensive. Negs do matter to me because I don't want to be banned from the forum as it is an important reference are for me, where I have learned alot and made a few good friends, an hope to make more.
The above expresses the personal opinions and observations of me...ignore them, agree with them, disregard them or fold them into a paper hat for all I care.
Finally, I would like to thank Cliff for taking the time and effort to provide this forum for us. It is a fantastic tool for anyone who has a fiero to learn about them and their capabilities and to make friends and share ideas with others with a similr obsession/passion/sickness. I had only had my fiero for two days when three people had informed me of this site and I have visited regularly since that time. So thanks again and keep up the good work and the evenhanded approach to how you moderate this forum.
Okay...Rant and thanks to Cliff (or as some will nodoubtedly call it, azz kissing) over...back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Once again, I only have two threads that I have gotten ugly in and some how have became part of the Bad Member Group. I am not understanding how this could occur in only two bad threads. Unless it was follow the leader on the rating or someone has found away to rate a person several times under differant names(which I know it more than likly has been done).
Once again, I only have two threads that I have gotten ugly in and some how have became part of the Bad Member Group.
Let me clairfy that I only selected members showing heavy negative rating (most of them, I find very abusive in their posts) on a quick browse through the Forum. Appears what you've said above is true, I did a quick review of some of your posts (didn't locate the ugly one's you referred to), you certainly don't seem to be the type of person who gets abusive like some of the others I listed. All I can say is, whatever you posted in those few threads must have really stirred up quite a few people, for them to jump to the rate me bar. While I feel the rating system works pretty darn good, you may be the exception in this case, if so, that's unfortunate, and I hope it changes quickly for you.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 10-07-2004).]
The great thing about the rating system is that it gives people plenty of chances to clean up their act. The gauge gives you a clear representation of how your words sit with others on the forum. People always go to the "I expressed my opinions and got negatives" theory. Maybe the people who think that should look at not WHAT they say but HOW they say it. Name calling and other abuses are normally not tolerated in any sort of group activity. Why should it be tolerated here?
In most cases I see here, when people start to get toward the negative side of their ratings bar they tend to act worse. This is the time when they should be looking inward to see if thier attitude (not opinions) is offending people enough to cause this. By the time they get to the flashing red light, they have blown through plenty of opportunities to fix the problem but chose not to. That's why I am against people being allowed a 'second chance' on the forum. They've already blown through plenty of chances to change but they chose not to. Why should we really believe they will be any different if allowed back? In nine out of ten instances, they come back and are quiet long enough to appease Cliff and then they go right back to the way they were.. But only now they have the smug attitude of "HaHa, you thought you could get rid of me?".
I really hate that this thread turned into something it was totally not intended to be (again, all because of the troublemakers taking it off in the wrong direction) but if it helps the forum in the long run, I'm all for it. Maybe some things are being brought to light here and more people will be willing to take out the trash.
Pennocks gotten boring? Life a little dull? Can't find a hornet's nest to poke? Antagonize one of these guys by provoking them in a post! It's easy and fun, and best of all pain free! I can see the new 'red bar battalion' slogan: Mess with me and watch the meter flash for all of us!!!
Songman, I hope you didn't take offence to me jumping in here and posting. The fact of the matter is that myself and quite a few others are a little feed up with the amount of "Garbage" being posted on this Forum. If some of us don't step forward, and say something about it, it will continue to increase. Some may think " well don't read the thread ", my position is that you're going to read it, to determine if there's anything of value, you can't make assumptions unless you read it. As Cliff stated, it is up to all the Members to control the "House", so I'm just posting my opinions based on other inputs to this thread.
