Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Totally O/T
  Is Social Justice a disease? (Page 1)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 4 pages long:  1   2   3   4 
Previous Page | Next Page
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Is Social Justice a disease? by 2.5
Started on: 01-07-2021 12:14 PM
Replies: 122 (1307 views)
Last post by: cliffw on 01-16-2021 07:53 AM
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2021 12:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"What Is Social Justice?
Social justice is a political and philosophical theory which asserts that there are dimensions to the concept of justice beyond those embodied in the principles of civil or criminal law, economic supply and demand, or traditional moral frameworks. Social justice tends to focus more on just relations between groups within society as opposed to the justice of individual conduct or justice for individuals.


Historically and in theory, the idea of social justice is that all people should have equal access to wealth, health, well-being, justice, privileges, and opportunity regardless of their legal, political, economic, or other circumstances. In modern practice, social justice revolves around favoring or punishing different groups of the population, regardless of any given individual's choices or actions, based on value judgements regarding historical events, current conditions, and group relations. In economic terms, this often means redistribution of wealth, income, and economic opportunities from groups whom social justice advocates consider to be oppressors to those whom they consider to be the oppressed."


If this is what it is, how could one say it isnt?
It is a tool used to divide people.
It leads to lack of actual justice for individuals.

Ever since it became popular I have always thought "Social" and "Justice" don't go together, that isnt a thing.
Want to change my mind? Agree with me?
I'm listening.
I find Social Justice dangerous and think it can not and will not lead to where it claims it should and wants to.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 01-07-2021).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
williegoat
Member
Posts: 14239
From: Glendale, AZ
Registered: Mar 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 93
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2021 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In my opinion, the phrase "social justice" is nothing more than Newspeak. It is used to make some tenets of communism more palatable. Instead of saying "redistribution of wealth" or "equality of outcome", just say "social justice".

Social justice is as absurd as baseball justice or kitchen justice. It means whatever the speaker wants it to mean.
IP: Logged
williegoat
Member
Posts: 14239
From: Glendale, AZ
Registered: Mar 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 93
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2021 12:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If (as is the belief of many progressives) all social structures are equally valid, on which society is social justice based?

Is an Islamic theocracy equally as just as Western civilization? What about Chinese society? Who decides?

The Seattle chop zone, did they exemplify social justice?

[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 01-07-2021).]

IP: Logged
theBDub
Member
Posts: 9339
From: Dallas,TX
Registered: May 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 157
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2021 05:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Is it a disease...? No...

Social justice is interesting. It's often that there is no right decision, just one that is more correct than another. Take the following statements and possible actions as an example:

White men make up more of senior leadership at F500 companies than their "share" of the population. That's not necessarily an issue on its own, just a fact. People everywhere have a tendency to favor those who look, talk, and act like them. That's not necessarily an issue on its own, just a fact. Take these two facts together and you end up in a vicious cycle of what amounts to racism and sexism, even if it's unconscious. These white men promote other white men more than others, not because they're white men, simply because they think like them and have similar backgrounds to them. They value certain leadership traits that have made them successful, traits that are most found in people that look and act like them.

If you start from a point of equity, where everyone is fairly represented, then that's no issue. Even if it's not at equity, but it's fairly representative to the market/industry (like minority women in construction or white men in nursing), I'd say that's probably no issue, as people will overall be promoted at parity even with unconscious bias towards people who look like them. But if you don't start from a point of parity, then it's a cycle. Those leaders not only promote people that look like them, they have children born into a higher socioeconomic class, who then have more opportunity provided to them, who go to better schools, get a better education, and have a better resume to allow them to compete better even on a completely fair ground. So it's this perpetuating system where the people at the top benefit.

Well, even if I convince you to agree that this is an issue... what are the remedies?
* Unilaterally fire anyone who is overrepresented and have full quotas. Well, that seems terrible. You'd just be firing people for their race. This is the opposite of what we want.
* Keep things where they are, but put out campaigns to try and raise the talent pool, and let it equal out over the next 50-100 years. Well, that doesn't seem right either. In that time, people will continue to be underrepresented, and there is still no guarantee that it'll fix itself (given the vicious cycle mentioned earlier)
* Promote underrepresented people more aggressively to fill the gaps. Well, this doesn't hit it either. You're still harming someone in the overrepresented group for their race/sex.
* Do nothing. This doesn't address the issue at all, and harms underrepresented people materially. The "do nothing" option artificially benefits White men.

Those are basically the only four options. So you really just have to pick the best one. I'd argue the third is probably the least harmful overall, and promotes eventual equity. But I can understand if you find that to be wrong. The issue is, we have to do something, and none of the options are harmless to all parties. That's why social justice is a contentious issue.
IP: Logged
maryjane
Member
Posts: 66931
From: Cleveland Texas
Registered: Apr 2001


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 443
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2021 06:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
White men make up more of senior leadership at F500 companies than their "share" of the population.


Why, is that even an issue?
Is it 'written' anywhere, that in private or public owned business, the overall population demographics of this or any other nation has a damn thing to do with who is 'in charge' of those businesses?

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-07-2021).]

IP: Logged
olejoedad
Member
Posts: 14396
From: Clarendon Twp., MI
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 192
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2021 07:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

Is it a disease...? No...

Social justice is interesting. It's often that there is no right decision, just one that is more correct than another. Take the following statements and possible actions as an example:

White men make up more of senior leadership at F500 companies than their "share" of the population. That's not necessarily an issue on its own, just a fact. People everywhere have a tendency to favor those who look, talk, and act like them. That's not necessarily an issue on its own, just a fact. Take these two facts together and you end up in a vicious cycle of what amounts to racism and sexism, even if it's unconscious. These white men promote other white men more than others, not because they're white men, simply because they think like them and have similar backgrounds to them. They value certain leadership traits that have made them successful, traits that are most found in people that look and act like them.

If you start from a point of equity, where everyone is fairly represented, then that's no issue. Even if it's not at equity, but it's fairly representative to the market/industry (like minority women in construction or white men in nursing), I'd say that's probably no issue, as people will overall be promoted at parity even with unconscious bias towards people who look like them. But if you don't start from a point of parity, then it's a cycle. Those leaders not only promote people that look like them, they have children born into a higher socioeconomic class, who then have more opportunity provided to them, who go to better schools, get a better education, and have a better resume to allow them to compete better even on a completely fair ground. So it's this perpetuating system where the people at the top benefit.

Well, even if I convince you to agree that this is an issue... what are the remedies?
* Unilaterally fire anyone who is overrepresented and have full quotas. Well, that seems terrible. You'd just be firing people for their race. This is the opposite of what we want.
* Keep things where they are, but put out campaigns to try and raise the talent pool, and let it equal out over the next 50-100 years. Well, that doesn't seem right either. In that time, people will continue to be underrepresented, and there is still no guarantee that it'll fix itself (given the vicious cycle mentioned earlier)
* Promote underrepresented people more aggressively to fill the gaps. Well, this doesn't hit it either. You're still harming someone in the overrepresented group for their race/sex.
* Do nothing. This doesn't address the issue at all, and harms underrepresented people materially. The "do nothing" option artificially benefits White men.

Those are basically the only four options. So you really just have to pick the best one. I'd argue the third is probably the least harmful overall, and promotes eventual equity. But I can understand if you find that to be wrong. The issue is, we have to do something, and none of the options are harmless to all parties. That's why social justice is a contentious issue.



Competition - it's a fact of life.

Its what drives the progress that Mankind has made over the eons.

The very concept of "Social Justice" works against competition and progress.

(Edited because my smart phone changes words.)

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 01-07-2021).]

IP: Logged
randye
Member
Posts: 10930
From: New Port Richey, Florida
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 201
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2021 07:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is no such thing as "social justice".

It is simply a concocted term created to have any word prefaced to it in order to complain about any imagined "right" that someone wants to complain about.

Our justice in this country is codified by our enacted LAWS and is adjudicated in our courts of proper jurisdiction.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-07-2021).]

IP: Logged
Hudini
Member
Posts: 8147
From: Shanghai, China
Registered: Feb 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 160
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2021 07:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:
Competition - it's a fact of life.

Its what drives the progress that Mankind has made over the eons.

The very concept of "Social Justice" works against competition and progress.

(Edited because my smart phone changes words.)



Exactly. The concept of "Equality of Outcome" is just another Socialist dream state that has failed wherever it has been tried. We have Equality of Opportunity. Everyone has a free education to grade 12. In my state you can even get a two year degree in a Community College for free.

Even here in communist China it is competition that drives everything except the government. Intense competition for schools, jobs, prices, products, etc. The Chinese have learned the hard way. When will we learn?
IP: Logged
olejoedad
Member
Posts: 14396
From: Clarendon Twp., MI
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 192
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2021 07:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:


Exactly. The concept of "Equality of Outcome" is just another Socialist dream state that has failed wherever it has been tried. We have Equality of Opportunity. Everyone has a free education to grade 12. In my state you can even get a two year degree in a Community College for free.

Even here in communist China it is competition that drives everything except the government. Intense competition for schools, jobs, prices, products, etc. The Chinese have learned the hard way. When will we learn?


Our parents knew it, I know it, my kids know it.....and thrive on it.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

But ya gotta go for it anyway.

IP: Logged
maryjane
Member
Posts: 66931
From: Cleveland Texas
Registered: Apr 2001


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 443
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2021 07:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:
But ya gotta go for it anyway.


Look,
I understand too little too late
I realize there are things you say and do
You can never take back.
But what would you be if you didn't even try?
You have to try

So after a lot of thought
I'd like to reconsider.
Please..
If it's not too late,
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Make it a cheeseburger

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-07-2021).]

IP: Logged
theBDub
Member
Posts: 9339
From: Dallas,TX
Registered: May 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 157
Rate this member

Report this Post01-07-2021 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


Why, is that even an issue?
Is it 'written' anywhere, that in private or public owned business, the overall population demographics of this or any other nation has a damn thing to do with who is 'in charge' of those businesses?



Like I said, it’s not an issue in itself. It’s just an issue when it results in a perpetuation of it without warrant. In other words, White people being promoted beyond what pure skills/experience would suggest. In other words... racism.

It’s only an issue when it’s a symptom of hurting others for their race (consciously or unconsciously).
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
randye
Member
Posts: 10930
From: New Port Richey, Florida
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 201
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 12:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Like I said, it’s not an issue in itself. It’s just an issue when it results in a perpetuation of it without warrant. In other words, White people being promoted beyond what pure skills/experience would suggest. In other words... racism.

It’s only an issue when it’s a symptom of hurting others for their race
(consciously or unconsciously).


But as you said earlier in this thread, you're ok with hurting white people in deference to other races which is the very definition of RACISM.

You just don't choose to, or cannot, see your own racism for what it is.

Of course, taken as a whole, nearly all of what you have said so far has the stench of racism about it since YOU are the one separating people on the basis of skin color with your arbitrary "options"

 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

Those are basically the only four options. So you really just have to pick the best one.

.


By the way, any time someone like you says "These are the only options...Pick one" that is an immediate red flag for any rational individual possessed of critical thinking skills and is also one of the reasons that I remind people to NEVER allow a Leftist to frame an argument or question.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-08-2021).]

IP: Logged
theBDub
Member
Posts: 9339
From: Dallas,TX
Registered: May 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 157
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 07:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:


But as you said earlier in this thread, you're ok with hurting white people in deference to other races which is the very definition of RACISM.

You just don't choose to, or cannot, see your own racism for what it is.

Of course, taken as a whole, nearly all of what you have said so far has the stench of racism about it since YOU are the one separating people on the basis of skin color with your arbitrary "options"



Randy, I said exactly that... that’s why I said it’s a sticky issue. Lower the hate blinders for a second. I’m not calling for reparations. I’m just very simply explaining the issue.

If you do nothing, it is racist.
If you do something, it is racist.

You have options in there, with various degrees of racism. You basically have to pick the shiniest turd. It’s not an ideal situation.

Edit: and I’m still not a leftist. I just work relatively high up in Corporate America, where Social Justice is extremely relevant.

[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 01-08-2021).]

IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 1640
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 08:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Social Justice is not a disease. It's a con.

First you create special interest/minority groups by definition.
Second you give them protections above non-protected groups.
Third you create a "Social Justice" directive to use the first two positions to dispossess the majority by multi-pronged approach. You give preferential treatment in regards to hiring, education allotments, and use tax revenue to promote the social justice directive.

It's a means to overthrow a society which ultimately puts society in servitude.
IP: Logged
blackrams
Member
Posts: 29162
From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 223
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 08:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For some reason, this discussion made me think of the television show "The Voice". Where judges listen to singers but can't see them until they turn around.
Those judges still select who they want based on their own qualifiers. I would think that a qualifier would be things subject only to talent and possibly range of voice although I'm not qualified to really suggest anything within the music world, I only know what I like.

Even if management promotions or hirings were done in a similar manner, the interviewee must convince the "judges" they have the knowledge, skills, personality and talents. There is no doubt that it's not only what you know but who you know in life that helps one get ahead, I won't deny that but, I also firmly believe that where there is the will, there is a way for the individual to get ahead. I know that in my own hiring and promotion practices, the only thing I really cared about was could the person do the job successfully. But, I also recognize that every person I promoted eventually came into what is known as the "Peter Principle". That same principle applies to myself.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-08-2021).]

IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 1640
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We all know government positions have to be posted so all candidates can apply and be considered. Most of us are probably aware that these positions get created when they already have a candidate selected for the position and the posting is already circumvented when it's created. When I was a kid my mom made someone angry for not applying after the created the listing for her.

We know a child car worker who was also baby sat after hours for an officer at a quasi-government power generator (the female exec made 400k per year). So the baby sitter was going to move to take a higher paying job but the exec created a new position at the power generating company with high enough salary so she'd stay and keep baby sitting her children too. Job was posted and given to the baby sitter.

I agree with your premise. Shows like The Voice, the goal is to create revenue for the production, not to select the best candidate. So it's all scripted generate dollars. And the contestants can't have wrong think either.

There's also inside corruption inherit to the process.
She obviously was banging the producer. Look at her selling it afterwards as if it wasn't a fix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOb2QbShMpU
IP: Logged
maryjane
Member
Posts: 66931
From: Cleveland Texas
Registered: Apr 2001


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 443
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Randy, I said exactly that... that’s why I said it’s a sticky issue. Lower the hate blinders for a second. I’m not calling for reparations. I’m just very simply explaining the issue.

If you do nothing, it is racist.
If you do something, it is racist.

You have options in there, with various degrees of racism. You basically have to pick the shiniest turd. It’s not an ideal situation.

Edit: and I’m still not a leftist. I just work relatively high up in Corporate America, where Social Justice is extremely relevant.



From racist to elitist.... ?

If one does believe in social justice, then it's just as relevant among the working class as it is up in the ivory towers.
IP: Logged
theBDub
Member
Posts: 9339
From: Dallas,TX
Registered: May 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 157
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

For some reason, this discussion made me think of the television show "The Voice". Where judges listen to singers but can't see them until they turn around.
Those judges still select who they want based on their own qualifiers. I would think that a qualifier would be things subject only to talent and possibly range of voice although I'm not qualified to really suggest anything within the music world, I only know what I like.

Even if management promotions or hirings were done in a similar manner, the interviewee must convince the "judges" they have the knowledge, skills, personality and talents. There is no doubt that it's not only what you know but who you know in life that helps one get ahead, I won't deny that but, I also firmly believe that where there is the will, there is a way for the individual to get ahead. I know that in my own hiring and promotion practices, the only thing I really cared about was could the person do the job successfully. But, I also recognize that every person I promoted eventually came into what is known as the "Peter Principle". That same principle applies to myself.

Rams



This would be good, and I agree with this. When implemented, including removing names (because names like “Devonta” and “Brayden” give away the respective race), it’s close to equal.

The issue is that it’s hard to implement, including in-person interviews. We see that when anonymized, BIPOC are hired near equal to White people. But when not, White people are overrepresented in hiring. Those same hiring managers believe themselves to be unbiased. And I think that’s really what the “issue” is and what Social Justice tries to resolve.
IP: Logged
theBDub
Member
Posts: 9339
From: Dallas,TX
Registered: May 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 157
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

theBDub

9339 posts
Member since May 2010
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


From racist to elitist.... ?

If one does believe in social justice, then it's just as relevant among the working class as it is up in the ivory towers.


Due to where I sit, I have had to learn a lot about this. It structures a company’s goals and HR approach. Of course it is relevant to everyone, but not everyone has had to have so much training. Don’t mistake my comment.
IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:

Of course, taken as a whole, nearly all of what you have said so far has the stench of racism about it since YOU are the one separating people on the basis of skin color with your arbitrary "options"



Sadly these arent his ideas, these are what is taught and what is currently being implemented in many jobs.
IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 1640
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There's over a billion Black Africans. And that doesn't include those on the rest of the globe outside of Africa.
There are over a billion Chinese in China only, and doesn't include all the other East Asians nor those Chinese elsewhere in the world.
There are over a billion Indians in India and doesn't include the rest of them elsewhere.

There are not 1 billion White people. There are only 330 million Americans. Only 60% are White and we are not reproducing.
The UN predicts in 80 years half the world population will be African.
Who is in peril here?
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
sourmash
Member
Posts: 1640
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

sourmash

1640 posts
Member since Jul 2016
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
Sadly these arent his ideas, these are what is taught and what is currently being implemented in many jobs.


This is genocide of White people. At least it's a compliment that they need us out of the way in order to enslave the world, because only one people created a middle class.
IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

Edit: and I’m still not a leftist. I just work relatively high up in Corporate America, where Social Justice is extremely relevant.



Would you say it makes you make decisions that make you feel uneasy, or that you disagree with, in order to keep your job?
I find it strange that is accepted as relevant. Is it relevant because it was taught in colleges long enough, taught to youngters who are now in leadership? Who then hired people who think the same way? Is it because we have social media guiding our morality and not absolute truth?
Do you see the connection between this and post modernist group identity politics, and how that leads to socialism, communism, and what that leads to?

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 01-08-2021).]

IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

For some reason, this discussion made me think of the television show "The Voice". Where judges listen to singers but can't see them until they turn around.
Those judges still select who they want based on their own qualifiers. I would think that a qualifier would be things subject only to talent and possibly range of voice although I'm not qualified to really suggest anything within the music world, I only know what I like.

Even if management promotions or hirings were done in a similar manner, the interviewee must convince the "judges" they have the knowledge, skills, personality and talents. There is no doubt that it's not only what you know but who you know in life that helps one get ahead, I won't deny that but, I also firmly believe that where there is the will, there is a way for the individual to get ahead. I know that in my own hiring and promotion practices, the only thing I really cared about was could the person do the job successfully. But, I also recognize that every person I promoted eventually came into what is known as the "Peter Principle". That same principle applies to myself.

Rams



Good analogy I think.
Thats the thing, enacting this system, removes "if there is a will there is a way" from relevancy. For example, the first step to sorting resumes is to trash the ones that checked a certain race box. How else will they "correct" their race quota percentages?

Since you brought up it reminding you of a TV show...
It reminds me of The Man in the High Castle.
IP: Logged
blackrams
Member
Posts: 29162
From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 223
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


This would be good, and I agree with this. When implemented, including removing names (because names like “Devonta” and “Brayden” give away the respective race), it’s close to equal.

The issue is that it’s hard to implement, including in-person interviews. We see that when anonymized, BIPOC are hired near equal to White people. But when not, White people are overrepresented in hiring. Those same hiring managers believe themselves to be unbiased. And I think that’s really what the “issue” is and what Social Justice tries to resolve.


Oh, I don't know about that. I know in my own hiring/firing and promotion practices, what I knew was that the most successful candidate made me look better and that should always be a goal. You don't hire or promote people that are going to make you look bad. If you can't select the right people for a job, then you might be in the wrong job.

I once changed jobs (a different company) and needed to hire a new supervisor. I knew who I thought I wanted but didn't have his contact information so, I called his supervisor to get it at the old company. His supervisor had been selected by the Production Manager previous to me so, he was in that position when I arrived. This supervisor was adequate but, he wasn't the person for the job I had in mind. He was disappointed when I didn't ask him if he was interested but, I knew he would not be successful. The person I wanted did interview with the hiring team (I was not on the interview team) and was offered the job. He didn't accept due to the salary offer but, that's not important. Oh, BTW, the person I wanted was black and damn good at what he did.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-08-2021).]

IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Due to where I sit, I have had to learn a lot about this. It structures a company’s goals and HR approach. Of course it is relevant to everyone, but not everyone has had to have so much training. Don’t mistake my comment.


 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

I know in my own hiring/firing and promotion practices, what I knew was that the most successful candidate made me look better and that should always be a goal. You don't hire or promote people that are going to make you look bad. If you can't select the right people for a job, then you might be in the wrong job.



I have seen it implemented in workplaces as well, LARGE companies, every employee gets mandatory training..yearly, and there are multiple new leadership positions and structures created just to oversee these things.
Literally created to "support diversity equity and inclusion outcomes".
Management has said it will be measured in the supervisors reviews.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 01-08-2021).]

IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 1640
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Perfectly said. Social Justice isn't about equal opportunity. It's about equal outcome (which precludes earning anything).
IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 09:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:

Perfectly said. Social Justice isn't about equal opportunity. It's about equal outcome (which precludes earning anything).


That is an exact quote from a LARGE company too.
IP: Logged
blackrams
Member
Posts: 29162
From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 223
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 10:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


I have seen it implemented in workplaces as well, LARGE companies, every employee gets mandatory training..yearly, and there are multiple new leadership positions and structures created just to oversee these things.
Literally created to "support diversity equity and inclusion outcomes".
Management has said it will be measured in the supervisors reviews.



Hmm Yeah, I went through some of that training, a lot of it is just awareness training. Giving one things to think about.
I'm not sure if I'm guilty or innocent then. My goal is, was and has always been to put the most qualified, motivated and talented person in the position. Don't give a rat's ass about much else. If, my goal is/was to get promoted myself or look good, why would I consider anyone but the best I could hire? But, as I said previously, the "Peter Principle" applies to all of us. I'm no longer in a position to hire or fire anyone. Actually, I'm just trying to keep my job as head of household and it ain't look'n good.

Rams
IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 1640
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 10:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One of my female friends was embarrassed when our huge global corporation placed her on one of the internal magazine publications along with two other minorities as "people on the move up". She said, as if people aren't going to see this for what it is. She was hired in at a higher pay grade than all her male counterparts who were hired at the same time. Hers was one that group supervisors got. She had no subordinates. She's capable, but...yeah, that won't have any blow-back.
IP: Logged
theBDub
Member
Posts: 9339
From: Dallas,TX
Registered: May 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 157
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 10:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Would you say it makes you make decisions that make you feel uneasy, or that you disagree with, in order to keep your job?
I find it strange that is accepted as relevant. Is it relevant because it was taught in colleges long enough, taught to youngters who are now in leadership? Who then hired people who think the same way? Is it because we have social media guiding our morality and not absolute truth?
Do you see the connection between this and post modernist group identity politics, and how that leads to socialism, communism, and what that leads to?



No, I do not. I do exercise discretion in how I phrase concerns, but I think that's fairly normal when discussing socioeconomic issues at work. I think discussing race and sex in the workplace should be easier, and not make people tiptoe so much, but we just aren't there. At the end of the day though, I own all of my decisions.

I think it's accepted as relevant because studies have shown the compounding impact inequality has had in America. The Civil Rights Act was passed barely more than 50 years ago. People are still working who were alive when it passed--it is not far away at all. Even after that, redlining and other ways of getting around explicit racism has profoundly negatively impacted specific populations of people. Someone in another thread talked about how White people lifted themselves up through aspiration, education, and determination. Education itself is a privilege, one that has not been applied equally across the board. When segregation and redlining, only decades ago, forced communities into certain areas, how can we suggest that it's their fault that they didn't live somewhere else with better education? If we ignore that, then we're contributing to a problem. All of that feeds directly into their ability to compete in an equal job pool, which contributes to where they live, which contributes to the opportunities their children have, and on and on. It's a real issue, not something to just ignore and pretend we should just move on.

I don't have a solution. I just understand why it's an issue. I do think many solutions hurt White people. Some, are crazy. I have had large disagreements with people who have said we should just have quotas for leadership, or quotas for political representatives. I'm not on board with that, and will never be. Yes, that technically "solves" the immediate issue of representation, but representation is not the primary issue, just a symptom of a problem we have collectively. I'm not pretending like the solution is that we all buy into everything Social Justice wants to give us, I simply think it's worth understanding the problem so we can actually approach the conversation.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
sourmash
Member
Posts: 1640
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 10:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is no equality. The huge corporation I mentioned above had a Black supervisor. He was caught on premises in a mechanical closet getting an oral favor from a woman who was his direct subordinate and evrerybody near that closet in his area knew what they had been doing in there. She got moved to a different location. He got no reprimand whatsoever.
Not long after a White supervisor got caught up in an unknown tryst that nobody knows the details about and was fired. She didn't work for him. It was the woman's 3rd work related sexual impropriety at the company and the other 2 were why she was moved to our group. Women, not fired. Black man, not fired. White man, fired.
IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 10:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Hmm Yeah, I went through some of that training, a lot of it is just awareness training. Giving one things to think about.
I'm not sure if I'm guilty or innocent then. My goal is, was and has always been to put the most qualified, motivated and talented person in the position. Don't give a rat's ass about much else. If, my goal is/was to get promoted myself or look good, why would I consider anyone but the best I could hire? But, as I said previously, the "Peter Principle" applies to all of us. I'm no longer in a position to hire or fire anyone. Actually, I'm just trying to keep my job as head of household and it ain't look'n good.

Rams


You sir are guilty of doing a good and correct job.
I was pointin gout the new benchmark is not doing that, and its wrong.
IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 10:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

2.5

41374 posts
Member since May 2007
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


No, I do not. I do exercise discretion in how I phrase concerns, but I think that's fairly normal when discussing socioeconomic issues at work. I think discussing race and sex in the workplace should be easier, and not make people tiptoe so much, but we just aren't there. At the end of the day though, I own all of my decisions.
..
I'm not pretending like the solution is that we all buy into everything Social Justice wants to give us, I simply think it's worth understanding the problem so we can actually approach the conversation.


Thats the first problem, they have forced people to edit their speech. I don't mean just saying things nicely, I mean editing their speech, that turns into editing ones own thoughts.

It is very worth understanding, so few even realize what is going on.
IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

I think it's accepted as relevant because studies have shown the compounding impact inequality has had in America. The Civil Rights Act was passed barely more than 50 years ago. People are still working who were alive when it passed--it is not far away at all. Even after that, redlining and other ways of getting around explicit racism has profoundly negatively impacted specific populations of people. Someone in another thread talked about how White people lifted themselves up through aspiration, education, and determination. Education itself is a privilege, one that has not been applied equally across the board. When segregation and redlining, only decades ago, forced communities into certain areas, how can we suggest that it's their fault that they didn't live somewhere else with better education? If we ignore that, then we're contributing to a problem. All of that feeds directly into their ability to compete in an equal job pool, which contributes to where they live, which contributes to the opportunities their children have, and on and on. It's a real issue, not something to just ignore and pretend we should just move on.



I appreciate your responses.

I believe emotion over logic and justice runs the rise of social justice.
Studies have also shown through time many of the policies that claim to be trying to correct this current state of affairs, policies enacted by left ideologies, actually do the opposite.

Accepting social justice I believe is much more dangerous than any unequal outcome currently percieved.
Any comments on what I said about post modernism, socialism, communism and where that leads?

IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 11:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Philosophy, logic, and thought

Too long? Try watching the last half:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UVUnUnWfHI
I agree that striving for equity is unacceptable, especially just aiming straight at it. No logic there.
The individual is what matters.

..and no this isnt "news" or a news source. Its philosophy. Though it may inform you of something, yes.

Always interested in what you think about these things.
IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 11:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

2.5

41374 posts
Member since May 2007



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQu9-LR4GcE
..
..
Gender, Race..which races? Who decides which ones? After that what will we try to even out?
This is the opposite of what The United States of America is.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAAIekJB3wk
..
..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPVDfhXQfw8

Disagree? Agree? Why?
IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 1640
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 11:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
First time I've really listened to Peterson and it's on purpose because what you run into on the right and farther right where I've poked my head into to look around is where you find people attacking you for being indoctrinated by specific names and Jarod Taylor and Jordon Peterson when you present certain ideas.

He's right that there are no 3rd rail markers for the left to tell them when they're going too far. But my opinion is that is on purpose because they're going for a Hail Mary now. At this time they're going for a complete overthrow of most of the Bill of Rights.
IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41374
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 179
Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 11:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If employers do it, and services do it, and not the gov directly, that may do legal work arounds of many of our rights?
Plus that, inherently indoctrinating and pressuring folks to not say certain things, and to vote certain ways.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 01-08-2021).]

IP: Logged
sourmash
Member
Posts: 1640
From:
Registered: Jul 2016


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post01-08-2021 12:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know this about my last corporate employer (and probably most of them); there was a female gossip circle you feared if you were a man that one of them didn't like. You felt uncomfortable even passing them in the hall. One of them as a real crap stirrer and would instigate improper discussion about bosses, etc...

Empowerment, the positive kind, is what it's falsely called.

[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 01-08-2021).]

IP: Logged
Previous Page | Next Page

This topic is 4 pages long:  1   2   3   4 
next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock