It really does seem like proponents of socialism think they are talking about something completely different than what socialism is and where it leads.
No, they act like they learned from previous mistakes and have a better solution. You know, like obamacare, a better solution has been found to replace the greed of capitalism and now true happiness has been implemented Nation wide.
No, they act like they learned from previous mistakes and have a better solution. You know, like obamacare, a better solution has been found to replace the greed of capitalism and now true happiness has been implemented Nation wide.
Originally posted by Threedog: In 1970, 92% of 30 year olds earned more than their parents did at that age. Now, that number is below 50%.
Hello pot, meet kettle.
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Originally posted by Threedog: However we forget that just about every other country that could rival us economically had been invaded, split, or bombed to complete and utter ruins. It is really easy to be on top when your infrastructure is intact and others have been decimated. Once countries began to rebuild their infrastructure/politically stabilize, they caught up quick.
Look into the mirror.
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Originally posted by Threedog: What has happened since then? The complete destruction of the lower and middle class by a drastic cutting of social safety nets and cutting taxes on the rich resulting in a deteriorating infrastructure and government systems.
Oh my ! The social safety networks have never been cut, They have been increased. They caught up quick and you expect that we would not suffer shrinking pains ? You expect that we will need more safety nets ? You expect we will not have to suffer hardships to compete ? Or, do you expect more handouts ? To maintain a previous antiquated existence.
Why yes. Yes you do.
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Originally posted by Threedog: Putting people in the lower class does not encourage them to get out, that is not how human psychology works no matter how badly you want it to.
Another biased opinion, that you have bought into, hook, line, and sinker ?
What do you know about human psychology ? I don't know what class I am in, I think lower middle class. Nor do I care about what class I am in. I am not interested in gaining class.
You are saying human psychology encourages them to stay there, ? I can agree with you. The human psychology of some / many people does kill motivation and creates dependence.
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Originally posted by Threedog: Also, the world is not the same as it was when you grew up. Opportunities for advancement are nowhere near what they used to be.
Hello pot, meet kettle !
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Originally posted by Threedog: However we forget that just about every other country that could rival us economically had been invaded, split, or bombed to complete and utter ruins. It is really easy to be on top when your infrastructure is intact and others have been decimated. Once countries began to rebuild their infrastructure/politically stabilize, they caught up quick.
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Originally posted by Tony Kania:
What do you do that we can follow to make life the idea that you have?
Tony, he would not answer my three or four pointed queries. He will not answer yours. We are led to assume that he has done nothing, nada, zilch. Except share visions of sugar plumbs, dancing in his head. Which really leads us to hold in doubt his ideals.
What has happened since then? The complete destruction of the lower and middle class by a drastic cutting of social safety nets and cutting taxes on the rich resulting in a deteriorating infrastructure and government systems.
WHAT HAPPENED.. lets see. 1)FEMINAZI's (lefties/dems) told women your job isn't raising your kids. it is be a strong woman and have a career.. 2) LEFTIES making it easy to split the family unit up because the woman is bored. why they do this. Because if you are a 2 parent household. you are not on the government tit. most of the time. and you might teach your kids. the evils of being under the governments thumb (social handouts) 3) the systematic distruction of the Nuclear family 4) The war on religion and morals..
seems to be all of the above are liberal agendas. THis is why they call dems. dumbs. liberals cause the problem, then claim they have the answer/fix.. and that always is getting the government deeper involved in peoples lives. but but but but but but but................................................ but .. Truth is not an insult, and reality is not an attack
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 02-28-2019).]
It really does seem like proponents of socialism think they are talking about something completely different than what socialism is and where it leads.
No one is actually talking about the same thing and what either side is talking about isn't the truth either.
Just too simple to understand.
Not a democracy. Not socialist nor capitalist.
A Republic,
administered by representatives of the citizens. NOT RULED but administrated according to our constitution. What makes us special is our view of equality for all to have a vote on who and how they choose to represent them.
The reason something this simple doesn't rock the socks of half the population is we are too big for this simple. The premise is and always will be good but in practice it is more complicated for everyone regardless of partisan side.
First, We are a semi socialist Nation built from a union of States. A Republic. Not all States wield the same influence in sheer population. Nor do they all have the same wants and beliefs. Our single common trait is the Constitution and the need to have a say in our own fate. Our government is designed to protect us. Protect us from even ourselves. Of course therein lies the the crack that perverters will seep into.
A Republic is a balance between Mob Rule(Democracy) and Anarchy(Lawlessness). It is an adversarial situation where the silent majority lose their representation and the loud minority demand it. Vigilance is mandatory for success.
Such as it is we also are not Capitalist(Pigs) Nor are we socialist(Commies).
What we really are and we can attribute all of our success and even our not so shiney moments to is a Self Serving Nation designed to be as fair as can be to allow the people to guide our balance over the best and the worst of all social designs. But only if we are strong enough to pay for it. That requires freedom,will and most of all INCENTIVE. TAKE ANY ONE OF THESE AWAY AND ALL FAIL.
We are essentially free to fail!!!!!
96% of us do not understand the reality of our circumstance. They deal in absolutes screaming and promoting capitalism! or socialism! When in fact they really don't want or understand what that means. Mostly it is just a shot of extreme vitriol directed against and equally stupid and unthought out rebuttal.
We can't hear each other because we are screaming at each other. We are screaming at each other because we are completely defensive about our emotional ideals. We are defensive about that because most of the people are uneducated and uninformed about the realities and mechanisms that create balance for all.
People that think socialism or capitalism is bad or good without anything in between are just as dangerous as people that believe they can have a prosperous society with only one or the other. Most reasonable and intelligent people agree that most things dealt with in absolutes are a byproduct of ignorance and/or insecurity. Ignorance because they don't know how to cope without a strict guideline and or insecurity that they are not able to be responsible.
The only difference between communism and socialism is you are forced into communism you vote yourself into socialism but both lead to the same fascism" Both pure capitalism and socialism are a self regulating system that eventually lead to "Totalitarianism and prohibits opposition parties, restricts individual opposition to the state and its claims, and exercises an extremely high degree of control over public and private life." One might ask why favor Capitalism if both are bad systems? First: Socialism is a byproduct of capitalism. With Capitalism we as individuals are able to OWN our own property. Versus the state or a duke or Earl owning it and we do as we are told and produce with that property as a means of survival. Socialism is a rebuttal to people more adept to building wealth than others. A societal necessity to keep a certain level moral standard for living conditions. All men are equal by law but not necessarily by their creator.
Without the strong the weak would die. Everyone is weak in the eyes of someone else so be careful who you decide deserves life and who doesn't lest you be decided upon yourself.
Our government is designed to protect us. Protect us from even ourselves.
If you sincerely believe that the United States government exists, in any measure, to protect you from yourself, then we can comfortably disregard everything else you said.
However, I am interested in hearing precisely what your definition of socialism is, particularly with regard to this "mixture" of capitalism and socialism you allude to.
It would also be helpful if your definition does NOT center around the currently fashionable horseshit of a list of things that this country does for the common good, such as a military, police, fire departments, roads etc. that virtually ALL countries do and have done for centuries before that penniless bastard Karl Marx ever set pen to paper in 1848.
While you decry the ignorance of others as to what the true nature of socialism, (or capitalism) is, I'm not sure that you know either.
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Originally posted by pokeyfiero:
96% of us do not understand the reality of our circumstance.
97.3% of all statistics are completely fabricated to support a weak argument.
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Originally posted by pokeyfiero:
Socialism is a rebuttal to people more adept to building wealth than others. A societal necessity to keep a certain level moral standard for living conditions. All men are equal by law but not necessarily by their creator.
Without the strong the weak would die.
Karl Marx said the same thing in 1875, but he said it more succinctly than you: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
You aren't talking about equality of opportunity.
You want equality of outcome.
You and Ol' Karl would enjoy each other's company it seems.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 03-04-2019).]
Karl Marx said the same thing in 1875, but he said it more succinctly than you: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
You aren't talking about equality of opportunity.
You want equality of outcome.
You and Ol' Karl would enjoy each other's company it seems.
If that is truly what you got out of what I said then there is no point in conversing with each other. That is actually preferential to me anyway as I think you are an bully and a complete ******* .
Rande, I believe pokey is simply attempting to lay out what is going on, big picture stuff, some could look at what was said and assume certain opinions which he likely does not hold.
Relating to the Gov's job. Security is pretty close to what they are tasked with. When they do much more than that they are generally over reaching. The issues lie in the definitions of many of these words and how they can be twisted.
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Honestly related to Threedog, and anyone else the shoe may fit...when good points get made, its my observation that usually the genuine Left believer leaves. Possibly not to come back and even read what is posted, but who knows.
Rande, I believe pokey is simply attempting to lay out what is going on
It is impossible to tell what anyone is "attempting to lay out" if they refuse to stand and defend their own thesis, but instead stamp their feet, call you a "bully" and other names and then run away at the very first challenge to their words.
That is the behavior of children, (like "Threedog").
It is not the behavior of a rational adult.
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Originally posted by 2.5:
Honestly related to Threedog, and anyone else the shoe may fit...when good points get made, its my observation that usually the genuine Left believer leaves.
Just like what happened in this case?
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 03-05-2019).]
Pokey, for sure the many perverters do seem to want to take away freedom and incentive.
There is that for certain and even those that honestly care are not able to communicate or have the skills to be reasonable. Many like RandyE treat discussion like an adversarial battle only recognizing complete submission and agreement to their insecure perspective. We fear adversaries and that makes us insecure. Stop treating each other that way and we remove the obstacle that keeps us from listening to each other.
Many like RandyE treat discussion like an adversarial battle only recognizing complete submission and agreement to their insecure perspective.
BULL
I am very secure in my well reasoned "perspective" and, unlike you, I am willing have it challenged and tested in vigorous debate, and, again unlike you, I don't run away and refuse to defend my position while claiming the other guy is somehow responsible for that failure.
There is that for certain and even those that honestly care are not able to communicate or have the skills to be reasonable. Many like RandyE treat discussion like an adversarial battle only recognizing complete submission and agreement to their insecure perspective. We fear adversaries and that makes us insecure. Stop treating each other that way and we remove the obstacle that keeps us from listening to each other.
You are looking at too narrow a spectrum. You are angry at RandyE for the issues caused by another. You found fault with his methods, but have not mentioned the insanity that just so happened to cause the conversation Pokey. Many side one way or the other and run with it. You seem to have done just that.
Not to mention all of the comfortable discord you espouse during each of your random visits to this forum.
Really not looking to argue with you here, just observing. I know how you feel about my views. We can discuss those if you would like.
You have been rated a positive since day uno. I see no reason to change that. None at all FYI. You have done wonderful things in your life and I recognize many of those feats. This is just a discussion of here and now, not days gone.
In my past dealings with pokey, though he has been quiet for a long time now, is he has his head on straight, just doesn't like BS. Pokey talks like a normal person and doesn't attack as much as some like to see.
Randye, I would guess pokeys talk of a bully is about your past style of communication with many people on the forum.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 03-06-2019).]
Pokey sprang off of my post by saying, (now this is in my words, based on what I read) : A problem that causes us to not be able to talk about the same thing begins with people arguing and being unreasonable, not listening, assuming too many things, only looking to determine if someone can be labeled as an adversary and just trying to win and maybe not having all the information first.
In no way am I talking smack or taking Pokey to task on anything here. I respect the man. In about 5 minutes some dimwit will walk in here and read otherwise. I cannot control the lack of comprehension that is about to be unleashed by said dimwit. We do not know just whom that dimwit will be, but rest assured that misunderstanding will take place.
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 03-06-2019).]
WHAT HAPPENED.. lets see. 1)FEMINAZI's (lefties/dems) told women your job isn't raising your kids. it is be a strong woman and have a career.. 2) LEFTIES making it easy to split the family unit up because the woman is bored. why they do this. Because if you are a 2 parent household. you are not on the government tit. most of the time. and you might teach your kids. the evils of being under the governments thumb (social handouts) 3) the systematic distruction of the Nuclear family 4) The war on religion and morals..
seems to be all of the above are liberal agendas. THis is why they call dems. dumbs. liberals cause the problem, then claim they have the answer/fix.. and that always is getting the government deeper involved in peoples lives. but but but but but but but................................................ but .. Truth is not an insult, and reality is not an attack
I Hardly ever agree completely with anything though I mostly agree with this. I been going over this thread looking for things that are actually on task with reality. Finding base causes is the path to finding solutions. Usually both problem and solution ends up being simple common sense and not some complicated progressive idea to save the world with fantasy utopia driven agendas. That's why it is so hard to work with Liberals more so than conservatives. Liberals always want to take a bite bigger than can fit in their face. It is a fact that a two parent home produces drastically more capable and responsible people. Even more so when one stays home keeping direction in a youth's life.Historically that is the woman due to our natural dispositions and qualities. It is just common sense. But common sense is the opposite of progressives ideas of moving forward at all costs. There is a war on common sense. There is also a war on men.A war on women. A war on change. A war on staying the same. We are at war on so many things at once. What we might need is a war on stupid irrational thinking.
Some people think that is what common sense is.Rational thinking. If only!!! Unfortunately common sense is a moving target.
Our "Common" (collective) "Sense" (Personal constitution) has been under attack since ever!! Constant struggle and loss always puts it firmly back into place. That has been a historical constant maintaining through countless ages of modernization and societal restructuring. It is our Post WW2 economic expansion or golden age of capitalism that has propelled our society into uncharted growth.
"Common Sense" has fragmented since 1945 away from a mostly secular vision into many different groups of ideas defining what is the selective collective personal constitutions of large groups. These value changes can be easily seen in age groups or generations but also take hold like a popular fad. People like to belong so they tend to glaum onto the group think. Especially if they are in an echo chamber of ideas.
This can be illustrated by some people saying things like "Yeah,That's old school way of thinking" with arrogance and no small amount of pride. Not necessarily a bad thing. New school thinking needs to measured and examined against old school thinking. In our faster than life pace it has been detrimental to say the least and disastrous in most cases. Not only do we not wait to see the results of our new thinking we do whatever we can to force it down the throats of anyone we can, as fast as we can, in any way we can.
Worse given our huge diversity and freedoms we do this over a huge number of different PROGRESSIVE ideas at once!! Literally bombarded with Attacks on Common Sense from all directions.
Common sense is experiencing growing pains that may be to much to survive. That manifests into hate and then often violence. Especially dangerous to us is this! As Americans we have a natural tendency to to fight to the death for our beliefs. It may be some genetic thing based on the people that made the choice to brave and risk everything to get here. You got to have balls to cross an ocean in a time when fast travel meant a healthy mule or even just having shoes. The idea that violence is acceptable is a core American institution if it is directed against what we perceive to be a threat to our freedom and beliefs.
The bigger and faster we go the less common will be a COMMON SENSE.
So let's just be compassionate,empathetic and to try and be as rational as possible with each other. We could find a common ground to try and make some sense together.
Ok,that's it. I finished my coffee. Got to go feed my chickens now. ------------------------------------------------------
Our government is designed to protect us. Protect us from even ourselves.
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Originally posted by randye: If you sincerely believe that the United States government exists, in any measure, to protect you from yourself, then we can comfortably disregard everything else you said.
I think Pokey was referring to the fact that a republic provides a buffer zone between public opinion and the inner workings of the government. We all know that public opinion is easily swayed. So in a sense, it does protect us from ourselves. And by "us" I mean society in general, not individuals.
In 1970, 92% of 30 year olds earned more than their parents did at that age. Now, that number is below 50%.
What has happened since then? The complete destruction of the lower and middle class by a drastic cutting of social safety nets and cutting taxes on the rich resulting in a deteriorating infrastructure and government systems.
Putting people in the lower class does not encourage them to get out, that is not how human psychology works no matter how badly you want it to.
Also, the world is not the same as it was when you grew up. Opportunities for advancement are nowhere near what they used to be.
Also, if socialist policies are so bad, why do we constantly give farmers massive amounts of government handouts?
Are you still here? Do you even want to talk about these links you provided?
On the surface it appears you are saying that because of various conditions children are brought in they are impaired from opportunity and ability to compete socially and financially in our present age. Also it seems you believe the solution to those issues is to increase taxation on producers so a government regulated and disbursed welfare program can some way put these people on equal footing to everyone else?
Originally posted by Threedog: I would point to universal healthcare that has not tanked the economies of European countries or Japan or Korea or Canada. Click to show
I would point to taxation polices that work in Scandinavian and European countries that have not turned them into third world hell holes. Click to show
I would point to the utter lack of exodus of the super rich from countries that have progressive, strict taxation polices that heavily tax the rich.Click to show
I would point(as I have in this thread) to the increased social mobility in these economies, where poor people actually have a fair shot at getting rich. Click to show
I would point to many states in this country that have passed many liberal/leftist laws with large social safety nets and have seen increased social mobility and stronger economies. Click to show
We like to think that America's super-capitalistic attitude is what allowed America to thrive during the second half of the twentieth centuries. However we forget that just about every other country that could rival us economically had been invaded, split, or bombed to complete and utter ruins. It is really easy to be on top when your infrastructure is intact and others have been decimated. Once countries began to rebuild their infrastructure/politically stabilize, they caught up quick. [/hide]
Finland's government is crumbling as we speak.
Venezuela is in the stone ages as we speak.
Hard work and fortitude built the United States of America.
Could you answer my previous question please?
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Originally posted by Tony Kania:
What do you do that we can follow to make life the idea that you have?
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 03-09-2019).]
? I can agree with you. The human psychology of some / many people does kill motivation and creates dependence.
