quote Originally posted by Red88FF: I do not believe in punishment before any damage has actually incurred.

I don't smoke pot, I don't condone or encourage it and never have, but there are lots of different things that can fall under the heading of your statement.
1. Illegal immigration.
2. Tax evasion.
3. street racing.
4. hiring illegal immigrants.
5. Tax evasion.
6. no safety glasses in a shop or industrial setting.
7. Speed limits
8. texting while driving.
9-almost infinity--it's a very long list.

It can easily be argued, that any of these actions alone or violations in of themselves causes no damage, but the laws we have and the rules of business are there two fold. To provide risk aversion in order to prevent damage and to provide the courts/business owners a punishment phase.

Even this forum has rules, that the breaking of which on surface, cause no perceptible damage, until it does. For a couple of years, some posting rules were broken openly with no discernible damage until Google notified Cliff it had to stop or they would not reinstate their ads here.
IOW, overall, the rules & laws are in place far more for PREVENTION of the damage than to punish for it.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-24-2017).]

liability insurance drops 30% if you test for drugs.. worker comp 25%
Wonder why that might be

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I don't smoke pot, I don't condone or encourage it and never have, but there are lots of different things that can fall under the heading of your statement. 1. Illegal immigration. 2. Tax evasion. 3. street racing. 4. hiring illegal immigrants. 5. Tax evasion. 6. no safety glasses in a shop or industrial setting. 7. Speed limits 8. texting while driving. 9-almost infinity--it's a very long list. It can easily be argued, that any of these actions alone or violations of themselves causes no damage, but the laws we have and the rules of business are there two fold. To provide risk aversion in order to prevent damage and to provide the courts/business owners a punishment phase. Even this forum has rules, that the breaking of which on surface, cause no perceptible damage, until it does. For a couple of years, some posting rules were broken openly with no discernible damage until Google notified Cliff it had to stop or they would not reinstate their ads here. IOW, overall, the rules & laws are in place far more for PREVENTION of the damage than to punish for it.

You have tax evasion down twice. that and illegal immigration has a negative and damaging effect instantly. I think all the others are BS. As said.
OSHA rules though are more insurance based laws. A lot of laws these days are in fact insurance based.

I am not advocating non safe practices in what ever. I am simply talking punishment before actual damage occurs. In all other aspects of getting the law and courts involved, arrest (not so much anymore as the subject shows), suing somebody, a damaged party is an absolute prerequisite for action.

Also not going to claim I might not be hypocritical on some of this.

quote Originally posted by dobey: If you don't want to bake a cake for a gay couple, then open your bakery in Moscow or somewhere else where it's illegal to be gay.

Always extremes with you.
A person can not be forced to accept the behavior of others, and we can't force our behavior on others. It is perfectly acceptable to NOT condone the behavior of others and not hate them at the same time. I do not condone everybody's behavior and will refuse to serve them as I wish in my own business. An example is a jehadist asking for a cake memorializing 911. It is my choice to refuse their patronage, as it is their choice to refuse to do business in my establishment.

quote Guess what, life is full of things you don't like. Deal wit it. Deal wit it. Hashtag deal wit it.

EXACTLY, likewise. This you say without even having a clue what it means.

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: liability insurance drops 30% if you test for drugs.. worker comp 25% Wonder why that might be

Because insurance companies pretty much rule this country. Something people often do not think about is safety is almost always the argument for restrictions. Restrictions are in themselves an assault on freedom. Safety is a pathetic and weak minded pay off for loss of freedom. Sound familiar?
I could exaggerate this point till you are in a confined and controlled environment with little to no choice in daily activities for the good of all.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: I could exaggerate this point till you are in a confined and controlled environment with little to no choice in daily activities for the good of all.

Your thinking on these things I think are too driven by fear.
That's not to say some concern isn't warranted.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Your thinking on these things I think are too driven by fear. That's not to say some concern isn't warranted.

I disagree, no fear here. I believe it is simple, complacency and the lack of understanding what being free means. Freedom is almost always at odds with safety and is the new generational mental problem. People seem to choose safety over freedom every time. Our learned forefathers rightly said they deserve neither.

Compromises are made in order to live in a society around other people.
This is why I said concern is warranted.
Its also why I said it is not all or nothing.
There is a fine line as some define it between freedom and anarchy.
Those that would like ultimate freedom, or anarchy should live alone away from others.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: You have tax evasion down twice. that and illegal immigration has a negative and damaging effect instantly. I think all the others are BS. As said. OSHA rules though are more insurance based laws. A lot of laws these days are in fact insurance based. I am not advocating non safe practices in what ever. I am simply talking punishment before actual damage occurs. In all other aspects of getting the law and courts involved, arrest (not so much anymore as the subject shows), suing somebody, a damaged party is an absolute prerequisite for action. Also not going to claim I might not be hypocritical on some of this.

Well, tax evasion probably happens twice as often as anything else. (Yeah, I screwed up and listed it twice--shoot me--please)

1. Illegal immigration.-the act of stepping over the border causes no damage other than one more set of footprints in the sand, which itself is illegal but rarely enforced. The damage comes when taxpayer monies have to be used to feed, educate, and support said illegal immigrant.
2. Tax evasion. Mis-stating earnings has no ill effect in of itself and is no different than if the worker really did make less money during that reporting period or if he had a new and legal deduction. The damage only comes later, when the govt entity has to reconcile budget outlays against revenues received.
3. street racing. We've all done this to some extent in our lives (or a high percentage of us anyway) It causes no damage until an accident happens and someone dies, gets injured or property is damaged and those things do frequently happen.
4. hiring illegal immigrants. When the illegal immigrant that stepped over that border forges documents or otherwise finds an employer that will hire him, damage to the economy happens. It takes jobs from a qualified immigrant or natural born citizen.
5. Tax evasion.-Mis-stating earnings has no ill effect in of itself and is no different than if the worker really did make less money during that reporting period or if he had a new and legal deduction. The damage only comes later, when the govt entity has to reconcile budget outlays against revenues received.
6. no safety glasses in a shop or industrial setting.- I've seen people go years without wearing safety equipment with no ill effects, until one day they lose an eye. Company (or their insurance co) has to pay the medical bill, retrain someone else to do the injured person's job and often production is at least temporarily decreased.
7. Speed limits.-We've all broken this law, either intentionally or thru not paying attention, and how fast a vehicle covers a piece of highway causes no damage, until again, and accident happens. Velocity breaks no law of nature or man, until the effects of that increased velocity impact our abilities.
8. texting while driving.--No damage whatsoever except to data plan, until inattention to the road injures or kills someone.
9-almost infinity--it's a very long list.

All these rules and laws are in effect simply to prevent the damage you speak of. Once damage occurs, it's too late to think about rules and laws except for punishment for breaking or ignoring them.

Insurance is (in my opinion) a racket but it is now deeply ingrained in our society.
The damages that come from rule and law breaking cause insurance premiums to increase or loss of insurance. Those in themselves are simply secondary damage.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: EXACTLY, likewise. This you say without even having a clue what it means.

LOL. You complain about me using extremes, and then you talk about an Islamist want a 9/11 memorial cake.

It seems extremes are the only thing you understand. Why does it have to be gays? Most everyone in your community probably does something which you do not condone, and you would happily serve them. Baking a cake for someone is not the same as condoning what they do in their private lives. Accepting that others are different, and not wanting to do the same thing, are not the same thing either. If you don't want to be gay, then don't be gay. Don't punish gay people for your personal issues and insecurities. A business is not your private life. When you open a business in a public space, you are open to public scrutiny, and must comply with public regulations, which includes not discriminating against people based on race, ethnicity, creed, sex, etc… To do so is bigotry, whether it is "hate" or not. You don't have to be a hateful bigot, to be a bigot, but they often go hand in hand, whether you are consciously aware of the hate or not. A desire to deny those who are different from you, a freedom which you enjoy, is indeed a hateful bigotry. That is exactly what refusing to serve someone based on your personal perception of what you think their sexuality is.

Sorry pal, but it seems you are the one without clue here. I pity you, that you worry more about the private lives of others, than for yourself. It is not a good way to live.

Libtard drivel, has no clue, has nothing valid to show so he throws around bigotry......... again. Discrimination would be accurate. But It's OK to force something on somebody if he agrees with it. Probably got a thrill up his leg when Trump supports were denied goods and services by the rabid leftist kook business owners.

[This message has been edited by Red88FF (edited 05-24-2017).]

quote Originally posted by dobey: LOL. You complain about me using extremes, and then you talk about an Islamist want a 9/11 memorial cake. It seems extremes are the only thing you understand. Why does it have to be gays..... Sorry pal, but it seems you are the one without clue here. I pity you, that you worry more about the private lives of others, than for yourself. It is not a good way to live.

Simply put sir, I dont. I don't worry at all about the private lives of others.
And insecurities have nothing to do with why people disagree with the behavior of others. And I have clue?? Sure, and about what you call pity,..save it, keep it spend it on someone else. It has no value to me, at least not what you call pity.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Probably got a thrill up his leg when Trump supports were denied goods and services by the rabid leftist kook business owners.

Oh, its just FINE when they do it to us.... We just cant do it to them.

Par-for-the-libtard-course.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Libtard drivel, has no clue, has nothing valid to show so he throws around bigotry......... again. Discrimination would be accurate. But It's OK to force something on somebody if he agrees with it. Probably got a thrill up his leg when Trump supports were denied goods and services by the rabid leftist kook business owners.

Nice assumption. You know what they say about assumption right? It makes an ass out of you, and umption.

I did not say that. Trump supporters who come into a store waving their dicks around, indeed do deserve to not be served. It is inappropriate. Same with Christians, or anyone else. Be respectful to others with your personal beliefs, be they political, religious, or otherwise. If you can't do that, then you don't deserve to be served. Businesses shouldn't advertise such things, nor should patrons. Keep your personal problems personal.

If you're going to come in being belligerent, bothering other customers, trying to push your views on people, then yes, you deserve to be thrown out. A gay couple holding hands or buying a cake is not pushing their views on you. They aren't trying to make you gay. They don't want you dead because you aren't gay.

If you want to take part in the community by opening a business within it, then either support the whole community, move somewhere else, or keep to yourself and don't open the business.

The current admin's ideals for budget, healthcare, and deregulation are going to cause far more harm to its supporters, than any number of liberal assholes with stores not selling them some cupcakes.

quote Originally posted by dobey: ... If you're going to come in being belligerent, bothering other customers, trying to push your views on people, then yes, you deserve to be thrown out...

Absolutely!

quote Originally posted by dobey: If you want to take part in the community by opening a business within it, then either support the whole community, move somewhere else, or keep to yourself and don't open the business.

WOW, you missed capitalism 101.

Business DO NOT exist to serve the community (except in libtard minds). They are started and exist for one reason, and one reason ONLY and that is to make money for the owner(s). The "community" it is located in is simply a matter of convienience because thats where the market (the money) is located.

Orginizatons for community service are called just that, NOT businesses.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 05-24-2017).]

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: WOW, you missed capitalism 101. Business DO NOT exist to serve the community (except in libtard minds). They are started and exist for one reason, and one reason ONLY and that is to make money for the owner(s). The "community" it is located in is simply a matter of convienience because thats where the market (the money) is located. Orginizatons for community service are called just that, NOT businesses.

If you don't want to participate in the community, then get out of the community. Stop trying to bring it down with your personal hatred.

And learn English, I never mentioned Capitalism, which is the true cause of most of the problems in the US today.

Isnt it time for your free helicopter ride?

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 05-24-2017).]

There is a good reason for a drug test for forklift operators. A momentary lapse in attention or judgment can and does get people killed.

Here is OSHA's page: https://www.osha.gov/dep/fatcat/dep_fatcat.html

Do a search for "forklift".

No disagreement on the safety aspect, Doug.

When I was working in the auto sector from 2002-2007, all 3 factories had a policy in place that once you punched in for the shift you were stuck inside or the fenced-in lunch/smoking area until the end of the shift.

It was because they had past problems with people going out to their cars and smoking up on breaks/ lunch so that was the solution to remain legal (and avoid rights lawsuits) while enforcing safety at the same time. The one where I was working in QC was a little more lax, but the most dangerous things we had were micrometers and verneers. Weld shop and press shop were both zero-tolerance for violations of it.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Well either they need to change their criteria or shut the F up I guess. I still say if they are going to test for this and that in the guise of whatever..... they need to test for the anger gene too. I am a firm believer in waiting till after something actually happens to dole out punishments I am funny that way though.

Interesting.

Doing an activity that has physical effects and which is clearly not allowed by company policy and known to be tested for and when discovered results in a person not getting a job and the applicants and yourself are upset by this? Drug use is a known cause of industrial accidents, so I have to assume someone would have to get run over by a high fork lift driver before the company should consider reacting?

Using your apparent attitude, known driving records should not be considered when trucking companies, bus lines and taxi companies hire people and should not even look at the applicant's driving record.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Don't care, I don't believe in testing or punishment for a preventative crime that most likely won't happen. Want your panties wadded? How about drunk driving....... sure it is not a good idea and I think everybody knows it, yet literally millions of people do it every single day with zero problems or accidents. Once you go down the path of what if? and we better dammed well do something regardless....... they will get you on something. What's next on their list. So nothing on the anger gene? something tells me you would not pass. No public service positions or weapons ownership, lose custody of any children if you fail. Why would anybody think that is unreasonable.

I agree with your attitude. I don't care either. I don't care if someone who can't pass a mandatory drug test doesn't get the job. It's the applicants own fault and some wish to blame the company. So when that person who has a known past for using runs over someone and who will most likely test positive in the post accident investigation kills or injures someone, it's the company's fault. People rarely change their life styles unless something dramatic happens. Would you say that the company is at fault for having employees who have a past with drug use. Tell me that won't be brought up in court by the family's lawyers of the person killed or injured, the company should have known. It's the company's responsibility to provide a safe work place.

Additionally, drug using employee (specifically) will normally have poorer work attendance records. Not to mention their production numbers are generally lower. Sorry but, hiring folks who can't pass a drug test is not a business wise decision.
------------------
Ron

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but …
after a shooting, the problem is the gun....
Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.

I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-25-2017).]

quote Originally posted by motoracer838: Another unintended consequence here has been the cost of warehouse space. Prices have doubled/tripled, it's driven other companies out, I know a couple of people that are considering closing... Be careful what ya wish for... Joe

How does that pertain to legal marijauna ? Are the 'legal' operations occupying warehouses and driving availability inventories down ?

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Libtard drivel, has no clue, has nothing valid to show so he throws around bigotry......... again. Discrimination would be accurate. But It's OK to force something on somebody if he agrees with it. Probably got a thrill up his leg when Trump supports were denied goods and services by the rabid leftist kook business owners.

Or all the music bands.. that wouldn't perform..

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: Or all the music bands.. that wouldn't perform..

Any musician has the right to choose not to play at a venue if they don't want to.

quote Originally posted by dobey: You are so stupid. Why should I be outraged at people who don't want to play or attend Trump's stupid inauguration party? They absolutely have a right to stay the hell at home if they want to. Anyone has the right to turn down an invitation. Wah wah. I'd say go cry a river, but the Charles is dirty enough without your salty tears. Maybe if Trump doesn't want crappy bands for his parties, he should stop being a crappy person.

BUT BUT them playing or speaking is a SERVICE , just like baking a cake.. or marrying lovebird...

How is that mud on your face.. you don't even see your own logic one way street..

Sorry, they get paid.... they don't do it for free... That is why it cost millions..

Liberal logic.

And you called me stupid.. baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahah

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 05-25-2017).]

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: BUT BUT them playing or speaking is a SERVICE , just like baking a cake.. or marrying lovebird... How is that mud on your face.. you don't even see your own logic one way street.. Sorry, they get paid.... they don't do it for free... That is why it cost millions.. Liberal logic.

No, stupid. Beyonce doesn't have a shop on Pennsylvania Avenue that anyone can just walk into and hear her play. Nobody is stopping Trump from buying her albums and listening to her music. Nobody is preventing one from perusing the end product of these musicians.

Paying a musician to perform, goes beyond buying the end product. Just like in cake shop, when you go in and buy a cake, you aren't paying to watch over the baker as it's being made. You are walking into a business that is open to the public, as a member of the public, and purchasing the end product. It is akin to buying an album of a musician, not buying a private performance of the musician. Private performances are not open to the public. Scheduling a private performance as such, is the forming of a contract, which must be negotiated, and both sides of the contract must have their requirements met.

You are free to become a private performance art baker if you wish, and require all your performances to be negotiated by contract via agent. But when you open a public business in a public space, you are part of the public and should operate as such. If you can't deal with members of the public perhaps having private lives you don't agree with, then operating in public is perhaps the wrong choice for you.

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: Disclaimer: While a past cannibus partaker...

Would you mind revealing why you are a "past" cannabis partaker and not a current one?

[This message has been edited by FrugalFiero (edited 05-25-2017).]

quote Originally posted by dobey: No, stupid. Beyonce doesn't have a shop on Pennsylvania Avenue that anyone can just walk into and hear her play. Nobody is stopping Trump from buying her albums and listening to her music. Nobody is preventing one from perusing the end product of these musicians. Paying a musician to perform, goes beyond buying the end product. Just like in cake shop, when you go in and buy a cake, you aren't paying to watch over the baker as it's being made. You are walking into a business that is open to the public, as a member of the public, and purchasing the end product. It is akin to buying an album of a musician, not buying a private performance of the musician. Private performances are not open to the public. Scheduling a private performance as such, is the forming of a contract, which must be negotiated, and both sides of the contract must have their requirements met. You are free to become a private performance art baker if you wish, and require all your performances to be negotiated by contract via agent. But when you open a public business in a public space, you are part of the public and should operate as such. If you can't deal with members of the public perhaps having private lives you don't agree with, then operating in public is perhaps the wrong choice for you.

Stay stupid,

I dont think him or the rest of the socialists have much choice, they were born that way.

Just cant wrap their head around the idea that a custom-made cake IS a private contract and the cake maker has the right to refuse to contract with anybody he wants for whatever reason he wants.

But, the drive a brick-and-mortar shop out of business, the cake maker goes online and continues to choose who he will and wont make cakes for. There are MILLIONS of ways to circumvent libby assholes and their wants.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 05-25-2017).]

quote Originally posted by FrugalFiero: Would you mind revealing why you are a "past" cannabis partaker and not a current one?

No, I do not mind at all.

Several factors have made me presently not partake. I say partake because there are several ways to take in cannibus. One had to do with being a father, and the other was due to a business/friendship deal that went sour pertaining to a legal grow that I was involved in several years ago. Simple as that.

I have taken several multi year breaks from marijuana, but have always been a "smoker". Even now I know of and we visit with friends that smoke. I try to maintain a friendship with other business owners in the area, and most smoke. I know it seems counter intuitive to a few of you fine folks, but because something is not of understanding, or bothers you, does not mean it hinders them.

I fully intend to partake again. I know this, and have no issues with it being in the background. But, I will never be drunk again in my life. I will take in a slight buzz several times a year, but I have a limited number of drinks available to me at any one time that I self defined as being three. I may have a dozen drinks a year, but very rarely even one more than that.

I am not arguing with anyone in this thread. I am respecting your thoughts and decisions on the subject. I will not pretend to sway you to think other than the beliefs that you have now. Facts can and have been presented on both sides of the table. Thanks for being civilized.

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: I dont think him or the rest of the socialists have much choice, they were born that way. Just cant wrap their head around the idea that a custom-made cake IS a private contract and the cake maker has the right to refuse to contract with anybody he wants for whatever reason he wants. But, the drive a brick-and-mortar shop out of business, the cake maker goes online and continues to choose who he will and wont make cakes for. There are MILLIONS of ways to circumvent libby assholes and their wants.

The official who made the "cake" decision lost a statewide election to a Republican. http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/...-official-lost-trnd/

Losing to a Republican in this State is highly unusual so his decision may have been a factor.

edit: The last time a Democrat lost to a Republican in a statewide election in Oregon was in 2002.

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 05-25-2017).]

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: liability insurance drops 30% if you test for drugs.. worker comp 25% Wonder why that might be

I have never been offered 30% off if I tested for drugs. Since I use medical marijuana and started out as a recreational user I wouldn't pass anyway. I don't drive while under the influence for the logical reason but I understand it's in my system for 30 days.

quote Originally posted by dratts: I have never been offered 30% off if I tested for drugs. Since I use medical marijuana and started out as a recreational user I wouldn't pass anyway. I don't drive while under the influence for the logical reason but I understand it's in my system for 30 days.

I think he means for the business.

Oh! I wasn't driving. I may have been under the influence.

CHICAGO – Predatory funeral homes have been accused of cashing in on Chicago’s relentless crime wave by taking advantage of a taxpayer-funded scheme that pays $7,500 in funeral expenses for homicide victims’ families.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2...funded-expenses.html


-- Why is anyone surprised by this? Free government money? Yes I'll have some of that. It happens all day every day.