I don't believe I have said anything about the "why" of his action, Just that I didn't approve of his chosen action. I have no problem with his protest, only his venue. I (in fact) stated that in my original posting. YMMV.
It's a free country, you have the right to agree or disagree.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
Definition of a home owner, "see the door threshold, without my permission, there and no futher.......
If, you wish to piss off a Conservative, lie to him. If, you wish to piss off a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, tell them the truth.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-03-2016).]
Does anyone know if he might have a contractual conflict? Something that the NFL has in some (or all) of the players' contracts that states something about being an embarrassment to the league? I'm guessing no since that would mean about 25% wouldn't be playing.
Does anyone know if he might have a contractual conflict? Something that the NFL has in some (or all) of the players' contracts that states something about being an embarrassment to the league? I'm guessing no since that would mean about 25% wouldn't be playing.
Everyone should read that letter. Thanks for posting it.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
Definition of a home owner, "see the door threshold, without my permission, there and no futher.......
If, you wish to piss off a Conservative, lie to him. If, you wish to piss off a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, tell them the truth.
I don't believe I have said anything about the "why" of his action, Just that I didn't approve of his chosen action. I have no problem with his protest, only his venue. I (in fact) stated that in my original posting. YMMV.
It's a free country, you have the right to agree or disagree.
No, you haven't , but you now have the opportunity to explain what you honestly think of the 'why' and explain exactly what this was supposed to infer and mean:
"I hate that at times I feel guilty for being white." "I’ve never had to deal with prejudice because of the color of my skin,"
Too many white folk stupid enough to have "white guilt". Never had it, never will. Guess I'm racist. Still trying to figure out why so many whites have guilt.
I've dealt with being judged by some blacks starting in high school.
[This message has been edited by kyunderdawg (edited 09-03-2016).]
No, you haven't , but you now have the opportunity to explain what you honestly think of the 'why' and explain exactly what this was supposed to infer and mean:
The method he chose pisses me off. Thought I made that pretty clear.
Obviously, you either haven't read or, paid attention to what I wrote (or don't believe what I wrote), his issue/reason for protest is not what I have a problem with, whether I agree or not. there are protests all the time over some issue, I don't have to agree or disagree with them to like or dislike the method they chose to protest their issues. Unless, you're attempting to reach a conclusion so as to make some claim or point in reference to my stated positions. I also didn't approve of the church from Topeka, KS protesting at soldier's funerals. No one asked me why for that opinion. We seem to have differing opinions on this but, you are welcome to your opinion.
Why would you ask me to explain anything, why do you think it's within your perogative to even go there and expect an answer? It's my perspective, opinion and position. But, here it is. IMO, his unwillingness to stand for the National Anthem disrespects all those who sacrificed before him so that he could protest his issues. He could have found another way but chose this method, that makes him a jerk IMO. That's my opinion, you may not agree but, that's my problem with Kaepernick's protest. Again, it's his action or lack or action that I don't agree with. SCOTUS ruled it was legal to burn an American Flag as a freedom of speech method. Whether I agree with that or not, it's legal but, I don't have to like it. Do you want to know why on that also?
Don't beat around the bush, if you've got something to say, say it. I have.
Infer? I thought it was quite clear. I hold a veterans opinion to a higher value than a non-veteran on this subject. Their service lends more credibility whether I agree with them or not on this subject. Other than that, I have no need to explain to anyone anything else. Opposing opinions may vary but, it's their opinions.
Again, I don't have to agree or disagree with his position on his cause to not approve or disapprove of his method.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
Definition of a home owner, "see the door threshold, without my permission, there and no futher.......
If, you wish to piss off a Conservative, lie to him. If, you wish to piss off a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, tell them the truth.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-04-2016).]
I didn't ask you anything. I said you now have the opportunity to explain your stance on his action, and to explain what you meant with your "My guess is, you haven't served" statement.
In response to my previous question:
quote
I dunno--how much have you protested the waste and to what extent have you gone to bring attention to the issue?
quote
At every election opportunity. Not that it's done much good.
Now, you understand why he felt he had to go to the extreme he did. Everything else that's been tried (at least during my lifetime) has done little good in the realm of true equality and equal protection under the law. Legislation is worthless if the people ignore it in their daily lives, and the equal rights act of 1964 was ignored and is still being ignored today as is the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
As far as showing not showing respect for those who have enlisted, been drafted, fought, and fought and died for this nation, I disagree, and so does Kaepernick--he has clearly and publicly stated he has great respect for those who have worn the uniform. His protest has absolutely nothing to do with the uniformed services. Zero-Nada. It also has nothing to do with how much $$ he does or does not make. I've been to sports venues, small and huge. There's hundreds of able bodied people scattered thru the big stadiums who don't stand for the National Anthem--the only difference is no one knows them,..they aren't 'celebrities' and the tv cameras don't focus n them.
I long ago came to the realization, that more people out of uniform die every year providing for this nation's defense and economic well being than those on the battlefield. In the 19 years, 5 months, 4 weeks and 1 day of the Vietnam War, we lost 58,220 military or military affiliated people. That's an average of 2,986 deaths per year. During the same period, working to provide for the military and the nation at large, this country's workforce lost an average of 37,965 per year, and that's just travelling back and forth to work. During the Vietnam era, approx 14,000 US workers died in "on the job" every year (all sectors not including US Military).
It takes an enormous amount of civilian manpower to support even a single US Soldier, not to mention close to $900,000 dollars /year in tax revenues.
You really think all those civilians feel any less patriotic toward this country than those of us that wore a uniform? You think that just because they didn't walk down, sign up, take a physical and head off to boot camp that they are "less American" or less prideful than you or I? I sure don't. I kinda liked having that food, the clothes on my back, and even the music that came in on AFRTS radio. You may have felt you were the point on the spear, but the push on that spear came from all the people outside the uniform. If you don't think so, go outside butt naked, try to swim to Afghanistan, then pull yourself up on a beach and swing your arms around over your head and see how much lift you create, then live off the land and draw pictures in the sand for entertainment.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 09-05-2016).]
I didn't ask you anything. I said you now have the opportunity to explain your stance on his action, and to explain what you meant with your "My guess is, you haven't served" statement.
In response to my previous question: Now, you understand why he felt he had to go to the extreme he did. Everything else that's been tried (at least during my lifetime) has done little good in the realm of true equality and equal protection under the law. Legislation is worthless if the people ignore it in their daily lives, and the equal rights act of 1964 was ignored and is still being ignored today as is the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
As far as showing not showing respect for those who have enlisted, been drafted, fought, and fought and died for this nation, I disagree, and so does Kaepernick--he has clearly and publicly stated he has great respect for those who have worn the uniform. His protest has absolutely nothing to do with the uniformed services. Zero-Nada. It also has nothing to do with how much $$ he does or does not make. I've been to sports venues, small and huge. There's hundreds of able bodied people scattered thru the big stadiums who don't stand for the National Anthem--the only difference is no one knows them,..they aren't 'celebrities' and the tv cameras don't focus n them.
I long ago came to the realization, that more people out of uniform die every year providing for this nation's defense and economic well being than those on the battlefield. In the 19 years, 5 months, 4 weeks and 1 day of the Vietnam War, we lost 58,220 military or military affiliated people. That's an average of 2,986 deaths per year. During the same period, working to provide for the military and the nation at large, this country's workforce lost an average of 37,965 per year, and that's just travelling back and forth to work. During the Vietnam era, approx 14,000 US workers died in "on the job" every year (all sectors not including US Military).
It takes an enormous amount of civilian manpower to support even a single US Soldier, not to mention close to $900,000 dollars /year in tax revenues.
You really think all those civilians feel any less patriotic toward this country than those of us that wore a uniform? You think that just because they didn't walk down, sign up, take a physical and head off to boot camp that they are "less American" or less prideful than you or I? I sure don't. I kinda liked having that food, the clothes on my back, and even the music that came in on AFRTS radio. You may have felt you were the point on the spear, but the push on that spear came from all the people outside the uniform. If you don't think so, go outside but naked, try to swim to Afghanistan, then pull yourself up on a beach and swing your arms around over your head and see how much lift you create, then live off the land and raw pictures in the sand for entertainment.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
Definition of a home owner, "see the door threshold, without my permission, there and no futher.......
If, you wish to piss off a Conservative, lie to him. If, you wish to piss off a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, tell them the truth.
"Brother Colin" Kaepernick continues trending positive in the Sales of Jerseys category.
quote
News of Kaepernick's growing marketability, at least in terms of jersey sales, adds an additional layer of complexity to the story of his protest. San Jose Mercury News reporter Mike Rosenberg first noted on Twitter that sales of Kaepernick jerseys had jumped from 20th among 49ers players to first.
Even though he is only a backup quarterback, Kaepernick has now moved to fifth overall among NFL jersey sales, according to NFL(.com), jumping from eighth a day ago.
I guess they would need "exit polls" to determine how many Kaepernick jerseys are being purchased by customers who plan to burn them instead of wear them. http://abcnews.go.com/Sport...sy/story?id=41861482
"Brother Colin"... something I heard on my car radio. From one of the San Francisco Bay Area's black rights activists...
Jersey sales... check. Protest socks...check.
Colin Kaepernick: Pigs on Socks Represent 'Rogue Cops' (ABC News)
quote
San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick has responded to critics who slammed him for wearing socks during practice with imagery deemed offensive and disrespectful to police officers.
Photos emerged this week of Kaepernick at an Aug. 10 practice at San Francisco's Kezar Stadium wearing black athletic socks covered in illustrated pigs wearing a police hats. The term "pig" is a derogatory term for police officers. . . .
After stating that he has two uncles and friends who are police officers, Kaepernick wrote that he wore the socks in the past to take a "public stance.
"Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, and which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide it against your convictions is to be an unqualified and inexcusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country. If you alone of all the nation shall decide one way, and that way be the right way according to your convictions of the right, you have done your duty by yourself and by your country. Hold up your head. You have nothing to be ashamed of." ~ Mark Twain
“There are two kinds of patriotism -- monarchical patriotism and republican patriotism. In the one case, the government and the king may rightfully furnish you their notions of patriotism: in the other, neither government nor the entire nation is privileged to dictate to any individual what the form of his patriotism shall be. The Gospel of Monarchical Patriotism is: 'The King can do no wrong.' We have adopted it with all its servility, with an unimportant change in the wording: 'Our country, right or wrong!' … We have thrown away the most valuable asset we have -- the individual right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he by himself) believes them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it all away: and with it, all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism." ~ Mark Twain
hope a team, with respect for our country.. rush him with every player on the field, and he has to be carted off the field..
That would be funny. The cornerbacks say "the hell with the receivers" and the safety's rush in even after the play is called dead. Whats the worst that will happen.....15 yard penalty for illegal roughness?
Muhammad Ali’s ex-wife tells Colin Kaepernick to ‘get off his high horse’
Colin Kaepernick has drawn comparisons to Muhammad Ali for the stand he is taking by protesting the national anthem, but Ali’s ex-wife does not believe that chatter is warranted.
Khalilah Camacho Ali, who was married to Muhammad from 1967 to 1976, told TMZ over the weekend that Kaepernick should not be proud of refusing to stand for the national anthem.
“What he’s doing right now is not heroic,” Khalilah says. “I would love to meet with him or talk to him on the phone to help share his message in a better way.”
Khalilah was married to the former heavyweight champion when he refused to fight in the Vietnam War, and she says she advised him on that decision.
“I helped Muhammad decide whether he was going to the army or going to jail,” Khalilah said. “He listened to my every word. You see the impact that had on our nation? Colin could absolutely have the same impact if he made the right decisions to really make a difference.”
If Khalilah was advising Kaepernick, she says she would first tell him to apologize for disrespecting the American flag. Like many others before her, she does not believe the act itself accomplishes anything.
“I will help him meet the groups that will fight with him, donate to charities of all people — not just minorities — because we cannot single anyone out,” said Khalilah. “If he wants isolation to end, he needs to prove that he cares about all people, and not just his people.
“If he is willing to get off his high horse and humble himself, we could do a lot of good together.”
Unfortunately, Ali is not around to share his opinion on Kaepernick. We have no way of knowing if he agrees with his ex-wife, but some have argued that that Muhammad made far more sacrifices by having to give up his boxing license for three years and almost facing jail time. Although, there have been reports that Kaepernick has considered a major lifestyle change.
Precisely. I'm not even a Cassius Clay Fan and I will acknowledge that Clay at least faced the music for his decision. Kaepernick isn't risking anything. His cause has been lost because of his form of protest. As Mrs Ali said, he could do so much more. In my humble opinion, all Kaepernick has accomplished is to have become a notoriety. Of course there are some followers, there always is. YMMV
Kaepernick is considering a major life style change? Well no **** Sherlock, he's at the end of his playing career. I sincerely doubt his commitment to this issue.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
Definition of a home owner, "see the door threshold, without my permission, there and no futher.......
If, you wish to piss off a Conservative, lie to him. If, you wish to piss off a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, tell them the truth.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-05-2016).]
Muhammad Ali’s ex-wife tells Colin Kaepernick to ‘get off his high horse’
[/i]
Yet another example of how, contrary to "popular" opinion, the African diaspora does not speak with a homogeneous voice.
Judging by the reaction of Black Twitter and other social media sites, the overwhelming sentiment to Khalilah ALI's statement has been one of continued respect with a caveat, not unlike the words of Evelyn Beatrice Hall when she wrote The Friends of Voltaire:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Curious.....why do you not refer to her as "Mrs. Belinda Clay?"
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 09-06-2016).]
Curious.....why do you not refer to her as "Mrs. Belinda Clay?"
You noticed.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
Definition of a home owner, "see the door threshold, without my permission, there and no futher.......
If, you wish to piss off a Conservative, lie to him. If, you wish to piss off a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, tell them the truth.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-06-2016).]
Shannon Sharpe hit the nail on the head. How many of you agree with it is irrelevant as is how many of you berate me for posting this. In my personal opinion, the doubters/dismissers/etc are a significant part of why the mood is as volatile between the races as it presently is.
The simple fact is THIS is the reality as perceived by a large swath of 42 MILLION Americans.....or, at least, this is the American Black reality.....and the numbers are increasing with each passing day and every new incident.
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 09-08-2016).]
Shannon Sharpe hit the nail on the head. How many of you agree with it is irrelevant as is how many of you berate me for posting this. In my personal opinion, the doubters/dismissers/etc are a significant part of why the mood is as volatile between the races as it presently is.
The simple fact is THIS is the reality as perceived by a large swath of 42 MILLION Americans.....or, at least, this is the American Black reality.....and the numbers are increasing with each passing day and every new incident.
Well, you'll need to start another thread posting this video in the first/opening post if you're looking to get berated. Pretty sure this thread is dead. Since my opinion is irrelevant, it doesn't really matter what I think but, I happen to agree with Mr. Sharpe on most of what he said. I'll leave it at that. Yeah, I like keeping you guessing.
As far as incidents increasing, we are all responsible for our own decisions and actions, don't care why Joey Rasmussen Smuckatelli Jr. (aka: Cool Dude) did what he did, he did it, it's been proven, he can pay the price. BTW, Joey is Heinz 57.
------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
Definition of a home owner, "see the door threshold, without my permission, there and no futher.......
If, you wish to piss off a Conservative, lie to him. If, you wish to piss off a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, tell them the truth.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-08-2016).]
Not if I can help it.....even if I'm the only one who posts in it. I'll keep it up until Cliff himself closes it or I get kicked off the island for it.....whichever comes first.
Not if I can help it.....even if I'm the only one who posts in it. I'll keep it up until Cliff himself closes it or I get kicked off the island for it.....whichever comes first.
Oh, we know that you will keep the hate alive.
So hard to be well off and black these days. How do you carry on?
You really think all those civilians feel any less patriotic toward this country than those of us that wore a uniform? You think that just because they didn't walk down, sign up, take a physical and head off to boot camp that they are "less American" or less prideful than you or I? I sure don't.
I wish your sentiment was shared by more recent vets. At least in the admittedly poor lens of social media, I'm seeing more and more veterans who see themselves above any who haven't served. It starts with the "you can't understand if you weren't there" (which I agree with) and typically progresses to an attitude that civilian attitudes and opinions don't matter. I've always had a great respect for our service members, but when that respect is rudely demanded I am reluctant to offer it. I guess that's a byproduct of being at war for so long.
I still respect those who serve, with exceptions for those who've shown they're not worthy of respect regardless of their service. Maybe that should have always been the case.
I wish your sentiment was shared by more recent vets. At least in the admittedly poor lens of social media, I'm seeing more and more veterans who see themselves above any who haven't served. It starts with the "you can't understand if you weren't there" (which I agree with) and typically progresses to an attitude that civilian attitudes and opinions don't matter. I've always had a great respect for our service members, but when that respect is rudely demanded I am reluctant to offer it. I guess that's a byproduct of being at war for so long.
I still respect those who serve, with exceptions for those who've shown they're not worthy of respect regardless of their service. Maybe that should have always been the case.
Originally posted by Formula88: I still respect those who serve, with exceptions for those who've shown they're not worthy of respect regardless of their service. Maybe that should have always been the case.
I suspect this may be a reflection of the additional rating I received today. It is, what it is.
I value some people's opinions more than others depending on the topic. I may or may not agree with a veteran on a certain subject but, their opinion does matter more to me than someone who has not served. IMHO, they've earned it on this topic. Do, what you need to do. No hard feelings on my part. ------------------ Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
Definition of a home owner, "see the door threshold, without my permission, there and no futher.......
If, you wish to piss off a Conservative, lie to him. If, you wish to piss off a Socialist, Liberal or Progressive, tell them the truth.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-08-2016).]
I suspect this may be a reflection of the additional rating I received today. It is, what it is.
I value some people's opinions more than others depending on the topic. I may or may not agree with a veteran on a certain subject but, their opinion does matter more to me than someone who has not served. IMHO, they've earned it on this topic. Do, what you need to do. No hard feelings on my part.
It's never been a question that veterans, combat vets especially, know what it's like to serve in war in a way no one who hasn't can hope to. I get that. It's when I see them treat others as unworthy because they haven't served that I draw the line. I've never seen that attitude expressed her specifically from vets. If I were to play armchair psychologist, I would guess it happens with those who are having the hardest time returning to civilian life. And there are certainly bonds between service members that only they can understand; however, while I haven't served I have had friends that I would drop everything at a moment's notice to come to their aid. I'm not saying it's the same, but combat isn't the only place where bonds of brotherhood can be forged.
It's never been a question that veterans, combat vets especially, know what it's like to serve in war in a way no one who hasn't can hope to. I get that. It's when I see them treat others as unworthy because they haven't served that I draw the line. I've never seen that attitude expressed her specifically from vets. If I were to play armchair psychologist, I would guess it happens with those who are having the hardest time returning to civilian life. And there are certainly bonds between service members that only they can understand; however, while I haven't served I have had friends that I would drop everything at a moment's notice to come to their aid. I'm not saying it's the same, but combat isn't the only place where bonds of brotherhood can be forged.
Some how, the point I was trying to make has been lost in the shuffle (or maybe it hasn't). On THIS (Kaepernick's protest) where the National Anthem is dis-respected, I hold a Veteran's opinion to a greater value. I won't apologize for that. Rate me as you will for that attitude and opinion. Whether they agree or disagree with me. They have gone the extra mile and served this nation. They have earned the respect I have for them. That doesn't mean I don't respect the opinions of others or that I don't think they have a right to that opinion. It is, what it is. I'm sure many don't respect my opinion on this and many other subjects and that's their right.
But, this has little to do with a bonding with friends, it's bigger than that. At least it is for me.
If only all these highly paid athletes and other celebrities would get together and pool some of the wealth, they could make up on heck of a Jobs Corps. But, that would mean they would have to personally sacrifice. Well, Mr. Marshall just lost some bucks but, I'm not sure that counts the same.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-10-2016).]
For some people, there comes a time when their ideals outweigh their wallets.
quote
“Absolutely they were worth the consequences,” Marshall said Friday. “I lost an endorsement, but that’s OK. I figured some sort of repercussion would happen. It’s what I thought about, and I still made the decision to do it. I can live with it.”
The AAFCU is a veteran-centric organization. It should be noted that none of this is directed at military vets or their familes. That's a particularly narrow (yet convenient) way of skewing the issue.
From Day One of this imbroglio, it's been about police brutality and an unjust social climate, not veterans.
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 09-10-2016).]
I have decided that I am boycotting the entire NFL until they institute the same rule the NBA has. NBA players are required to stand respectfully during the National Anthem. I will not watch any games including the Super Bowl. I will not buy any of their merchandise and I will not use any of the merchandise that I already own.
That is going to free up a good chunk of time this fall. I will be working in my garage on various projects instead.
I have decided that I am boycotting the entire NFL until they institute the same rule the NBA has. NBA players are required to stand respectfully during the National Anthem. I will not watch any games including the Super Bowl. I will not buy any of their merchandise and I will not use any of the merchandise that I already own.
That is going to free up a good chunk of time this fall. I will be working in my garage on various projects instead.
I'm certain women would've appreciated that degree of commitment when the sports world was focused (temporaily, at any rate) on domestic violence.
I'm certain women would've appreciated that degree of commitment when the sports world was focused (temporaily, at any rate) on domestic violence.
Is that based on the fake factoid of DV going on during the Super Bowl? You know that was based on a lie right?
I don't support DV and I don't appreciate you insinuating that I do. If you want to start a thread about DV, have at it. This thread has nothing to do with it.
I have absolutely no knowledge of any "factoid" true or otherwise related to "Super Bowl domestic violence." (?) That wasn't the point anyway.
My point is I'm rather surprised that the degree of commitment to disclaiming and/or discrediting the ISSUE at hand in this instance has not been equally applied. I've read more than a few posts on social media sites wherein the poster has stated they would no longer follow the NFL due to the "social justice/injustice" stand taken by some of its players.....but recall very few such sentiments being expressed when the focus was on women getting their butts kicked by not only NFL players but in everyday life as well.
Disrespect women? Okay, we can live with that. Draw attention to an issue that affects Persons of Color of BOTH sexes (note I didn't say Black, Brown, etc..as police brutality isn't exclusively a Black problem) and damnit, it's BOYCOTT THE NFL time! It simply appears that the umbrage expressed in this specific instance is more about WHO is speaking out than WHY they're speaking out.
In an "ideal" America, people would be more outraged by the fact that we STILL have to deal with the same damn problem AGAIN.
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 09-11-2016).]
You'd have to get rid of quite a few White folks too ....unless you're among those that believe that "White on White" crime is but a figment of our collective imagination.
.....but we're getting off-topic. Was that your intent?
Never had it, never will. Guess I'm racist. Still trying to figure out why so many whites have guilt. 
