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LS4 V8 DoD 4T65-E TAPShift swap underway (pics inside) by Darth Fiero
Started on: 09-12-2007 09:05 PM
Replies: 389 (49059 views)
Last post by: Dogcreek on 06-23-2012 12:11 AM
blkcofy
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Report this Post09-23-2007 11:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blkcofySend a Private Message to blkcofyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Eau_Rouge:

blkcofy, where did you get your black seatbelts? I'm also looking for a pair. Do they fit under the plastic panel without any problems?


Eau_Rouge,
Check ebay as search for Fiero Seat Belts. You'll need the 3 point belts. The retracter box is a different shape than the OEM belts, but it still fits under the side trim. I did have to purchase longer size bolts from Auto Zone to fit properly into the car as the bolts that came w/ the belts were too short. Other than that, it fits just fine.

[This message has been edited by blkcofy (edited 09-23-2007).]

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blkcofy
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Report this Post09-27-2007 12:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blkcofySend a Private Message to blkcofyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Smashed another one of my piggy banks recently to continue to keep Darth busy on the swap. I think Peter Parker's Uncle Ben said it best..."With great power, comes great responsibility...and better aftermarket parts!".


Intrax Front and Rear Sway Bars to keep this thing on the road!


Koni Shocks and Struts from The Fiero Store


400lb springs and coilovers from West Coast Fiero


Complete Poly kit on pretty much everything but the engine mounts from The Fiero Store


I've got an order on it's way for some hot C6 Corvette tips from tc7130 (can't wait!)


A Steering Wheel Sport Paddle Shifter kit from Twist Machine (this almost makes up for loosing my 5sp Getrag)


This was 'Junior' as I left him in the great hands, care, and expertise of Darth Fiero. I didn't realize how much I'd miss this car until it was gone!

I'm still on a quest for an affordable, yet effective bigger rotor brake upgrade. I think I'm pretty much sold on the RCC Specialty kit and will look to find my own rotors and calipers. I'm sooo impressed with the folks there. They've bent over backwards to help me. And since I'm going with at least 11" rotors, I have to find an affordable, yet unique tire/wheel package. After seeing all the awesome setups on many of the Pennock owners, I'm looking for a 17x8 225/45 on the fronts and 18x9 265/35 on the rears. From what I've read, I need to stay w/in a 35 to 40 offset range. Painting and body work won't happen til next year, while I work my azz off to re-stock my depleting piggy banks! But I'm going with a gun metal metalic gray w/ black racing stripes. Have you seen this look on the porsche? Fricken killer look...in my opinion.



I've been dreaming about doing this for at LEAST 8 years. I am just so dang stoked about it finally coming to life, you have no idea. I haven't figured out if my wife is happy for me or just laughing at my childish giggles everytime I check on Darth's progress. A key to that of course is keeping the reciepts far, far, away from her! A boy and his toys...

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-27-2007 10:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ill bet your wallet is a bit upset after that shopping spree!

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Fieroseverywhere
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Report this Post09-27-2007 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Before you go out an buy the 11.25 upgrade you should look into the 12" vette rotor setup. If you use the stock 88 fiero calipers you can save yourself a couple hundred dollars and end up with a bigger rotor out of the deal. Vette rotors are cheaper even with the machine costs of re-drilling a new bolt pattern. You can use the stock master cylinder and lines so that money goes back into you pocket. You will need concentric rings to center the rotor. If you prefer to buy them instead of making them you can get them from Rockcrawl. The brackets needed to make the rotors fit is very, very easy. Here is a shot of a set. Remember these brackets are for 12" vette rotors with 88 fiero calipers on an 84-87 fiero (confused yet? ).


-The rotors need re-drilled with the fiero bolt pattern. Rotors can be found anywhere but I have found the best price (~$20 dollars each) at Rockauto.com. Rockcrawls also sells them pre drilled for $135 + shipping I believe.
-You will need to turn down the fiero front rotor to the hub or buy a set of brake upgrade hubs ($100) from West Coast Fiero.
-Stock 87 master and lines are retained though I would suggest using stainless lines (also $100 from WCF).
-You may have to make the brackets since I have not got confirmation from Rockcrawl that he is selling them. I bought mine from him but he didn't say if he was selling more. Try sending him a message. If he does not have them and you cannot make them let me know and I will get you the measurments so you can have someone else make them. Basically they are a 1/2" steel plate with one edge rounded for clearance. There are two steel sleeves welded on to space them out. The holes on the other side are drilled and tapped to accept the 88 fiero caliper bolts.
-You will need 16" or larger wheels and this could be the determining factor for the total price of this upgrade for you.
-No need for a perportioning valve cause you are using stock fiero calipers and master.
-Total cost of upgrade for me is ~$550 including high performance pads (~$80 WCF). All new parts except for the 88 calipers which I bought and re-built. Even if you buy everything new it wont cost anywhere near the 1300 dollars of the RCC upgrade.

Here is a couple of links in case you don't have them already.

http://stores.ebay.com/Fiero-Addiction
Send him a message from here and see if he has the brackets/rings and rotors available.

http://www.westcoastfiero.c...ake_accessories.html
Lots of stuff here to help you with the upgrades. FYI those hubs will work if you go with the 11.25 upgrade also. Much, much easier then turning down the ones on the car.

For me I didn't really have a choice. I decided to go with the 88 cradle swap which made the 11.25 very tough to use in this application. In the long run I was glad I did. I got a better brake upgrade that used stock fiero parts and the lower cost of it offset the cost of the 88 cradle swap. Hope this helps or at least gives you another option. Can wait to see this car together. Later.

Men need toys just as much as women need shoes. I don't know about you guys but my woman spends more on shoes then I do on car builds. lol Men need toys, it keeps that primal urge to hunt and kill at bay.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 09-27-2007).]

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post09-27-2007 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere:

Before you go out an buy the 11.25 upgrade you should look into the 12" vette rotor setup. If you use the stock 88 fiero calipers you can save yourself a couple hundred dollars and end up with a bigger rotor out of the deal.


Because this is an 87 car, if we used stock 88 Fiero calipers with a 12" rotor setup, we would still need to buy calipers. And the last time I priced rear 88 calipers, they weren't cheap ($100 per side plus a $60 core).

Another observation I have is I drove a 88 Fiero with the 12" rotors (cross-drilled) using the stock 88 calipers and I wasn't impressed. I don't know if the problem was the type of brake pads that were used or because of some other problem, but the car had very high pedal effort -- and to be honest, my impression was that it stopped worse than my 87 with the 4-corner Grand Am upgrade. Now I am sure it probably didn't fade like my 87 does when I really push it hard, but my concern is the pedal effort required just to stop the car during normal driving. Again, I didn't put that brake system together so I don't know what parts were used and if someone switched out the brake M/C.

Now what I know about brakes is larger rotors are just one part of the equation. With bigger rotors you should also install brake calipers that have more piston area (ie: bigger piston or multiple pistons) to bring the pedal effort down. Obviously the system needs to be balanced because you don't want to have a touchy system that is easily prone to locking up. But that 88 I drove with the 12" rotors was at the extreme opposite end of the scale to this.

Just an observation and my $0.02 on the subject.

-ryan

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Fieroseverywhere
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Report this Post09-28-2007 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I was just throwing another option out there for you guys. My understanding is that the 88 fiero calipers have a slightly larger piston size then the earlier fieros. Using these should decrease pedal pressure a littleI am in the process of building my car now so I have not been able to test out these brakes yet. I am going with a higher performance pad. Actually I'm going with the Portfield R4-S. They are a pad made for high performance street and autocross. Here is a link to their site with some more info on them.
http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/pads.html

I like the idea of using fiero components in the braking system. The parts are readily available and since this forum is here you can get them at decent prices. I know that this upgrade has been done for nearly 20 years as it was one of the first brake upgrades ever done on a fiero. When I get mine done and tested I will post back my results if you guys are interested. Out of all the people I have talked to you are the first to give any feedback on this brake set-up. I hope my results are a little better then the ones you have driven. Thats the great thing about fieros, there are so many options out there.

The build looks great. Keep up the good work. If you can get a video of the car running so the rest of us will get a chance to hear it that would be excellant. Great job so far.

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post09-29-2007 12:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The oil dipstick tube was long enough that I was able to rebend it so it could be repositioned to be fastened to the back of the cylinder head -- thus giving easier access to it once installed in the Fiero...



The oil filter was hitting the cradle so that had to be delt with...



Not pictured is the plate I welded across the bottom of the cradle in this area in order to box it in and reinforce it. I was concerned about not doing this because I felt without the boxing the cradle would have been weak in this area.

As seen in one of the pictures above in one of my previous posts, during the test fit the oil pan was resting on the cradle -- so that had to be corrected...



In doing this, it created a problem where the control arm would have hit the now boxed area if the suspension would have bottomed out so I did have to modify the control arm in the area of the bushing slightly (not pictured); but it wasn't a big deal.

The only other area that required notching was on the left side where the transmission side cover had a boss on it that would have contacted the cradle. So I corrected it by notching this area out of the cradle and then filled in the hole by welding in some metal...



No control arm modifications were required on this side after this was done because it wasn't that big of a cut-out. Also notice in the above pic where some of the area where the mount bolts to the cradle had to be ground away to clear the corner of the transmission pan. Not pictured are about 3 other areas that required slight massaging to clear the engine/transmission. Not a big deal, but again it had to be done. Since the 88 cradles have less room, I assume more work will be required to get this powerplant to fit in one of those cars but that was expected.

-ryan

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-30-2007 02:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

The oil dipstick tube was long enough that I was able to rebend it so it could be repositioned to be fastened to the back of the cylinder head -- thus giving easier access to it once installed in the Fiero...

O how I wish I could do this with 3800's easily, Maybe I will try mounting them farther back next time in the swap I am doing right now

The oil filter was hitting the cradle so that had to be delt with...

Fairly large mod there, could you of used a oil filter relocator to fix that interferance?

Not pictured is the plate I welded across the bottom of the cradle in this area in order to box it in and reinforce it. I was concerned about not doing this because I felt without the boxing the cradle would have been weak in this area.

I do this whenever I can, I know that its not technically a weak point, but I dont like the idea of 3x the power that cradle was designed for, twisting around on top. That rail seems so small and fragile that you could twist it and break it without much effort. I assume your dumping the stock ebrake system then?

As seen in one of the pictures above in one of my previous posts, during the test fit the oil pan was resting on the cradle -- so that had to be corrected...

I had this problem on one of my 3800s I fixed it by mounting it slightly higher in the rear so it tilted a bit differently.

In doing this, it created a problem where the control arm would have hit the now boxed area if the suspension would have bottomed out so I did have to modify the control arm in the area of the bushing slightly (not pictured); but it wasn't a big deal.

What did you have to modify? just cut out a part of the lower side of the arm? What do you think you would do if it was an 88?

The only other area that required notching was on the left side where the transmission side cover had a boss on it that would have contacted the cradle. So I corrected it by notching this area out of the cradle and then filled in the hole by welding in some metal...

Hmm, if your cutting there, it looks like you are really fighting to get this mounted really low eh?

No control arm modifications were required on this side after this was done because it wasn't that big of a cut-out. Also notice in the above pic where some of the area where the mount bolts to the cradle had to be ground away to clear the corner of the transmission pan. Not pictured are about 3 other areas that required slight massaging to clear the engine/transmission. Not a big deal, but again it had to be done. Since the 88 cradles have less room, I assume more work will be required to get this powerplant to fit in one of those cars but that was expected.

I always prefered doing swaps on 88 cradles, but I think I mounted things a bit higher and farther forward than you do. I noticed that on akursed swap, it seemed really centered in the engine bay. Great post, I love the detail. I might have to consider this swap when I have some access to tuning it. I can get these motors/trannies cheaper than you guys want to hear.

-ryan

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post10-01-2007 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darkhorizon:

Fairly large mod there, could you of used a oil filter relocator to fix that interferance?


Probably could have, but the amount of money that would have been required to purchase everything needed to relocate the oil filter would have been more than it cost me to modify the cradle.

 
quote
I assume your dumping the stock ebrake system then?


No. The owner (blkcofy) wants to keep the e-brake for the reasons he described in an earlier post.


 
quote
I had this problem on one of my 3800s I fixed it by mounting it slightly higher in the rear so it tilted a bit differently.


Tilting the powertrain up in the rear would have created clearance problems elsewhere; especially up front in the area of the water pump.

 
quote
What did you have to modify (control arm)? just cut out a part of the lower side of the arm? What do you think you would do if it was an 88?


I will show what I did to the control arm once the poly bushings are installed later. It was a "minor" modification. I don't know what is going to be required for an 88 cradle until I do one of these swaps in an 88 Fiero.

 
quote
Hmm, if your cutting there, it looks like you are really fighting to get this mounted really low eh?


Fighting? No. Notching the cradle to clear the transmission used in that LT1/4T60-E swap I did a few years ago was "fighting". This is nothing compared to that. But as with all my swaps, I always try to mount the engine/trans as low as possible for many reasons. One reason is for deck lid/upper end clearance and another reason is for lower center of gravity. Since I make custom mounts anyway, I can mount the engine/trans anywhere I want it (within reason and respect to drive axle angles). In the case of this swap, the engine/trans is being mounted as low as possible to maximize clearance between the deck lid and the water pump housing as well as the intake manifold. Now the LS4's intake sits so low it would probably never interfere, but I wanted to leave the option open for a different intake should the owner desire it.

 
quote
I always prefered doing swaps on 88 cradles, but I think I mounted things a bit higher and farther forward than you do. I noticed that on akursed swap, it seemed really centered in the engine bay. Great post, I love the detail. I might have to consider this swap when I have some access to tuning it. I can get these motors/trannies cheaper than you guys want to hear.


I can only work with what I am supplied with. If the customer brings me an 84-87 Fiero and wants a swap done to it, that's what I use; if I am supplied with an 88 Fiero, that's what I use. I have seen earlier cars (84-87) where people swapped 88 cradles into them; but 88 cradles aren't cheap plus you have to consider the cost of the rest of the parts needed to put one into an earlier car; so for many people on a budget, this isn't an option.

AkursedX's swap used a SS intercooler which required me to mount the engine/trans low on the cradle in order to clear the deck lid without cutting. I don't like cutting on the Fiero chassis or body parts if I don't have to. Cradles are much easier to find and replace than chassis' and body parts; should anyone ever desire to revert the car back to stock for any reason -- OR -- transfer the swap to another car in case of body/chassis damage as the result of an auto accident. In the case of this swap tho, there are going to be modifications required to the chassis in order to clear this engine; but that has to be done for other swaps as well (3.4 DOHC, NorthStar, etc).

Concerning tuning software, HP Tuners and EFI Live already has support for the LS4 and both companies have assurred me their software can defeat the VATS securty functions in the ECM. I have already ordered a tuning software suite for this swap so I've got that covered. But the ECM/TCM programming isn't what I am worried about; the DIC and BCM concerns me more. I (and the owner) want to use the BCM and DIC in this swap; and as you know there is no tuning support for the BCM at this time (and probably will never be). So I will probably have to spoof a lot of inputs to the BCM in order to get the BCM to work as desired and prevent any warning messages from being flashed up on the DIC.

Now as far as LS4/4T65-E powertrains are concerned, Ed Morad is the one we got this powertrain from; and he told me when I picked this one up that he is pricing them out at $3000-$3500 complete depending on mileage and included hardware -- which I think is a great deal. He can be contacted via his website here: www.moradpartscompany.com if anyone is interested in purchasing one of these setups.

-ryan


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Austrian Import
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Report this Post10-01-2007 11:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Austrian ImportClick Here to Email Austrian ImportSend a Private Message to Austrian ImportEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This thread is awesome. How on earth did I miss it? Love the Lambo creme interior. More pictures please.
*bump*

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post10-01-2007 11:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

i want to know your ebrake secrets.

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blkcofy
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Report this Post10-02-2007 12:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blkcofySend a Private Message to blkcofyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

CALLING ALL FIBERGLASS ARTISIANS!!

Okay, here's the challenge. I can follow directions pretty well, and can make things up as I go. BUT, fiberglassing is an art, and I've never tried. So, instead of doing something crazy, I'd like to ask if anyone has any...or knows of someone...who can do custom fiberglass work. Ryan is going to attempt to keep many, if not most of the Drivers Information Center functionality from the donor car (2005 Grand Prix GXP) using the DIC module...measured in inches for width and depth:



The DIC/Trip computer has a 5 button system with DIC information plus compass, outside air temperature, average speed, elapsed timer, average and instantaneous fuel economy, range, remaining oil life, transmission fluid temperature, battery voltage, engine hours, intermediate gear positions and performance upshift light. As I mentioned, Ryan is trying to capture as many of these functions as possible to pair them to the new computer from the LS4. This is a blurry readout, but gives an example of what it looks like.



My preference is to provide as many pictures ect. as possible, as I'm not really wanting to ship the DIC (cost too much to loose or get damaged) unless absolutely necessary. Ryan does have the cover plate that came out of the Grand Prix that could be used for mock up purposes.



My objective would be to design something that replaces the Fiero 2 guage pod that sits above the HVAC, and mount something in the same place. I don't think theres enough dash space to build the DIC into the Fiero dash like it is on the original donor car...



So if there's any advice out there to help me figure out how to create a housing that I can either paint or wrap in black vinyl that would dress up the module. Worse case scenario I can just fabricate a bracket and have it screw into the skeleton that the current pod sits, but it would look kinda tacky. I have ZERO fiberglass experience, so I'd definitly consider commissioning someone else to create something for it.

Please let me know!! Thanks!

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post10-02-2007 12:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

BTW ryan I just had a short conversation about BCM's with my friend that works at a pontiac dealer, he seems confidant he can flash a bcm with whatever code he wanted to.

I know this doesnt really help, but it might help in the brain storming category if you find a specific year or application you would want to try to make work.

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post10-02-2007 11:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

BTW ryan I just had a short conversation about BCM's with my friend that works at a pontiac dealer, he seems confidant he can flash a bcm with whatever code he wanted to.

I know this doesnt really help, but it might help in the brain storming category if you find a specific year or application you would want to try to make work.


Thanks for the help, but I also have access to a GM dealer employee who can do the same. The trouble is all they can do is just reflash it (the BCM) with stock programming, and what I would need turned off is standard equipment in these cars so no stock programming with that disabled is available. What I need is the ability to pick and choose what functions in the BCM I want to disable.

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Report this Post10-02-2007 12:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yea, that was my point, you might benifit from possibly flashing it with "base model" code thats all I was thinking. I am also thinking there might be some things VERY hard to emulate on that BCM, such as shifter position, and Hvac control settings. The BCM might also controll the dash a bit, and there could be some 2way communication there.

If it was a obd2 style BCM I would attempt trying to mess with hex editing, but that all depends on how good a friend you have at the dealer.

Alot of speculating, but I think the best bit of speculation is that the BCM will still function without having everything there. Technicly a "non critical solid state" peice of hardware like this would not have limp home mode built into it or somthing of the like. Overall the idea of a BCM is being more of an output computer than an input computer like the PCM is also.

I hope you have a nice wiring diagram layed out. Fairly crazy amount of wires going to and from any of the body moduals I have seen, luckily enough most of the communiction arcitecture is based of GM lan now, which is 1 wire and some grounds.

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post10-03-2007 03:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just a little update: did the 2nd test fit yesterday with the water pump housing installed; which revealed that I will have to modify the water pump housing in the upper portions (top front idler pulley, coolant fill cap locations) so it will work in the Fiero engine compartment. The front upper idler pulley will hit the firewall when installed and the coolant fill cap will interfere with the deck lid hinge. I don't have any pictures of what I am going to do to modify this housing yet, but I will post some when the modifications are done so you can see what I had to do.

I borrowed a spot weld drilling tool kit and removed the dog bone mount bracket and battery tray from the chassis. I also clearanced the hinge support and will be working on a plate to weld in there to support the modified deck lid hinge. I am also working on motor and trans mount brackets. As soon as I get these completed, I will post some pics.

-ryan

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Report this Post10-03-2007 05:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

well crap, there goes the "leave the fiero stock, but mod the cradle" idea. O well, I dont think anyone would ever want to downgrade from a ls4.

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Report this Post10-03-2007 06:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronrusClick Here to Email aaronrusSend a Private Message to aaronrusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

i have some questions for the thread starter, or anyone else who could answer them..

1)what aftermarket exhaust headers are available and can be modded for use on the fiero..

2) are there any immediate camshaft/valvatrain/intake upgrades that can be performed right away before you put it in? it is an SBC, so does that mean aftermarket parts for GEN IV RWD SBCs can be used on this engine?

3)what is the weight of this engine by itself? im curious to know what it weighs compared to the 2.8L

4) what kind of fuel economy is this engien getting coupled with the 4t65e?

[This message has been edited by aaronrus (edited 10-03-2007).]

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post10-03-2007 07:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The fuel econ should be better than 35mpg (some can get 40mpg with 3800's), assuming that there get the advertised 30mpg in the big bonnie or grandprix.

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Fieroseverywhere
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Report this Post10-03-2007 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Jon (AKA Rockcrawl) just added these to his ebay store. Best bang for the buck IMO.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...6QQitemZ160164527897

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Report this Post10-03-2007 11:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blkcofySend a Private Message to blkcofyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere:

Jon (AKA Rockcrawl) just added these to his ebay store. Best bang for the buck IMO.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...6QQitemZ160164527897


I'll definitely check these out. The kit is $500, but I'd have to buy a full set of 88' Fiero Calipers. The Fiero Store sells the front set ($160) and rear set ($280). This quickly adds up to $940 and would have to find longer parking cables. I'll check it out...but the Lebaron DIY kit with rjblaze's brackets comes out much more affordable. I'm not sure the performance differential between the two will justify the cost. I'd need to find way cheaper calipers!

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Raydar
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Report this Post10-04-2007 05:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by blkcofy:


I'll definitely check these out. The kit is $500, but I'd have to buy a full set of 88' Fiero Calipers. The Fiero Store sells the front set ($160) and rear set ($280). This quickly adds up to $940 and would have to find longer parking cables. I'll check it out...but the Lebaron DIY kit with rjblaze's brackets comes out much more affordable. I'm not sure the performance differential between the two will justify the cost. I'd need to find way cheaper calipers!


check out www.calipersonline.com

The 88 fronts are $125 per set. New Old Stock. Including pads. No core charge.
The 88 rears are $350 including core charge, though.

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Tom Slick
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Report this Post10-04-2007 09:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tom SlickClick Here to Email Tom SlickSend a Private Message to Tom SlickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by blkcofy:
I'd like to ask if anyone has any...or knows of someone...who can do custom fiberglass work.


contact Amida, he does great fiberglass work. just look at his repo 355 interior kit.

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post10-04-2007 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I got 4 calipers from a junkyard, somewhere (www.car-part.com) shipped to my door for $75.

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post10-04-2007 02:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by aaronrus:

i have some questions for the thread starter, or anyone else who could answer them..

1)what aftermarket exhaust headers are available and can be modded for use on the fiero..


I am not aware of any aftermarket headers that will work with this engine in a Fiero without modification. The stock exhaust manifolds do work in the confines of the Fiero's engine compartment, but just barely.

 
quote

2) are there any immediate camshaft/valvatrain/intake upgrades that can be performed right away before you put it in? it is an SBC, so does that mean aftermarket parts for GEN IV RWD SBCs can be used on this engine?


Concerning the camshaft, the short answer to your question is no. I have talked to a few cam companies and they are unsure about the lobe requirements for the DoD system. They want a stock cam sent to them for examination; and I am reluctant to let the only one I have go without knowing when and if I will get it back. But that is the decision of the owner. The rockers could probably be upgraded but with the stock ratio (1.7) GM is already reporting the valve lift to be 0.490".

The intake manifold is one upgrade I have looked into. I tried a 6.0L truck intake on this engine and it appears that it will bolt right up; and because I am mounting the engine/trans so low on the cradle, it will also clear the deck lid. But the truck intake I have uses a different throttle body and fuel rails/injectors; and it has a longer runner design than the stock LS4's. I do have a neighbor/friend who used to work at Lingenfelter that said he is going to contact them to see if they will loan us a stock LS2-vette intake so we can see if it works as well. I will advise if and when I get ahold of one of those.

 
quote

3)what is the weight of this engine by itself? im curious to know what it weighs compared to the 2.8L


By itself, the LS4 longblock (block, internals, heads; but NO intake or assy's) weighs 339 lbs. Now before you get too excited about this number you need to keep in mind other components are needed (such as water pump, alternator, starter, etc) in the swap. Once you add all the assy's, brackets, and mounting hardware, the weight total swells to 478 lbs! Just to give you an idea of how the weight total added up so quickly, here are the weights of the various components...

Shortblock (dry): 259 lbs (incl crank, rods, pistons, cam, lifters, oil pan, balancer)
Heads (each) : 23 lbs (incl valves, springs, retainers, locks)
Pushrods/rocker arms (both banks): 13 lb
Valve covers (both): 6 lb
Plastic Intake, TB, mounting hardware, fuel rails: 17 lb
Misc brackets & mounting hardware: 21 lb
Front cover incl water pump: 15 lb
starter, alt, mounting hardware: 24 lb
mounts, mount brackets, pulleys, hardware: 12 lb
coil packs (both banks): 8 lb
a/c compressor: 15 lb
head gaskets: 2 lb
head bolts, other gaskets, mounting hardware: 5 lb
front exhaust manifold: 16 lb
rear exhaust manifold: 11 lb
exhaust crossover pipe: 8 lb

As you can see, all of these extra components weigh something. I think that when people on this forum throw out weights of engines they are going to use in their swaps, sometimes they omit the weight of required hardware and components needed in the swap as well. I know this weight total for the LS4 sounds like a lot, but compare this with a fully dressed iron-block SBC. I bet that SBC even with alum heads probably weighs 100lbs or so more than this LS4 once you bolt everything on it required for the swap. Just for reference, the 4T65-E weighs 214 lbs.

 
quote

4) what kind of fuel economy is this engien getting coupled with the 4t65e?



My sister-in-law has an 06 Grand Prix GXP with the LS4 and she gets 30mpg on the highway @ 60-65mph when the DoD is active. I figure in a Fiero once you consider the weight and aero differences, you should see 35mpg or more at the same speed. Now it should be noted that you probably won't get this good of fuel economy if you are tooling down the highway doing 80mph, or if you are driving thru hilly or mountain terrain. This is because the ECM for this LS4 will command the DoD system to deactivate at higher loads.

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post10-04-2007 02:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

well crap, there goes the "leave the fiero stock, but mod the cradle" idea. O well, I dont think anyone would ever want to downgrade from a ls4.


I never said the Fiero was going to be left stock. I did say I like to do that whenever I can, but there are instances (like in the case of the 3.4 DOHC or the Northstar) where you have to modify the Fiero's chassis so it will work with those engines. Having said that, one of my goals when I do swaps that require modifications be made to the chassis is to minimize those modifications as much as possible.

To give you an example, earlier you suggested that the engine/trans could be tilted forward to avoid interference between the transmission and the cradle. Well if I did that, this would have created problems with the water pump (which cannot be relocated unless I throw it out and run an electric one) as I mentioned earlier. But what I didn't mention is the clearance with the exhaust manifolds. The front manifold is less than 1 inch away from the front firewall in some places; and the rear manifold is less than 1" below the trunk bulkhead -- so close in fact I am going to have to relocate the upstream O2 sensor from it's original location in the manifold. Now if I had done what you suggested, the front and rear manifolds would have been moved closer if not touched these areas which would have created more problems. So given the choice, I would rather clearance the cradle so I can set the engine/trans as low as possible rather than do a lot of other sheetmetal work to the chassis of the car.

And again my reasoning for doing what I do isn't just because of the thought someone in the future may want to de-mod; but rather move this swap to another vehicle, perhaps in the case of an auto accident that totals this car. If you have a different way of doing your swaps; then you can do them your way. This is just the way I like doing things in my swaps.

-ryan

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Fieroseverywhere
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Report this Post10-04-2007 04:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by blkcofy:


I'll definitely check these out. The kit is $500, but I'd have to buy a full set of 88' Fiero Calipers. The Fiero Store sells the front set ($160) and rear set ($280). This quickly adds up to $940 and would have to find longer parking cables. I'll check it out...but the Lebaron DIY kit with rjblaze's brackets comes out much more affordable. I'm not sure the performance differential between the two will justify the cost. I'd need to find way cheaper calipers!


I bought mine here on the forum for 110 shipped (all 4). Probably another 50 to rebuild them all. There are always 88 coupes being parted in the mall. Good thing is you have some time to find exactly what you want. You can buy the rebuild kits from Rockauto.com or possibly your local auto parts store. I just wanted to throw another option out there for you. Doesn't matter what you use to stop this car, it will haul a$$ either way. Looks great so far.

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FIEROPHREK
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Report this Post10-04-2007 06:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROPHREKSend a Private Message to FIEROPHREKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Concerning the camshaft, the short answer to your question is no. I have talked to a few cam companies and they are unsure about the lobe requirements for the DoD system. They want a stock cam sent to them for examination; and I am reluctant to let the only one I have go without knowing when and if I will get it back.


Hey Darth if you are really interested in a cam i have one that is not going to be used . I'm sure there are some LS4 guys on LS1tech that would love an cam option for thier DoD cars. Let me know if you want this cam and i can hook you up.

------------------

ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post10-04-2007 06:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Just a little update: did the 2nd test fit yesterday with the water pump housing installed; which revealed that I will have to modify the water pump housing in the upper portions (top front idler pulley, coolant fill cap locations) so it will work in the Fiero engine compartment. The front upper idler pulley will hit the firewall when installed and the coolant fill cap will interfere with the deck lid hinge. I don't have any pictures of what I am going to do to modify this housing yet, but I will post some when the modifications are done so you can see what I had to do.

I borrowed a spot weld drilling tool kit and removed the dog bone mount bracket and battery tray from the chassis. I also clearanced the hinge support and will be working on a plate to weld in there to support the modified deck lid hinge. I am also working on motor and trans mount brackets. As soon as I get these completed, I will post some pics.

-ryan


Not sure what your interference problem is without pictures but I did run into coolant filler neck interference with the deck lid hinge on the 3900 swap and just cut out a plate and welded a neck onto it to mount on the coolant crossover manifold to allow relocation of the filler cap assembly.

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MstangsBware
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Report this Post10-04-2007 08:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


Not sure what your interference problem is without pictures but I did run into coolant filler neck interference with the deck lid hinge on the 3900 swap and just cut out a plate and welded a neck onto it to mount on the coolant crossover manifold to allow relocation of the filler cap assembly.


The problem is the filler neck hits the hinge and the upper pulley hits the firewall on the LS4. The hinge can be modified to make the fill point work if need but the pulley really needs to be moved down to clear the firewall. The pulley is very close to the firewall if not touching so it either has to be moved in or the firewall boxed to allow for clearance. These are 2 reasons why I may be putting my LS4 into a 88 Coupe and not my 88 GT, I really not forsure if I want to modifiy it in anyway. Over all the motor is a tight fit on the whole Pass side of the car and the Alt is going to have to be moved also and then it still is going to be an issue with clearance. This install is coming right along and cant wait to see the final outcome.

Just so its clear and I am not taking credit, all that I know and talk about of the LS4 install, I have learned from another installer who did all the test fitting(but with a LS1/65E) and ran into the clearance problem many months ago. I am gald that another installer is doing the swap so more can be learned about the swap and make it easier for me when I get around to doing my swap.

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Report this Post10-04-2007 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blkcofySend a Private Message to blkcofyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


And again my reasoning for doing what I do isn't just because of the thought someone in the future may want to de-mod; but rather move this swap to another vehicle, perhaps in the case of an auto accident that totals this car.

-ryan


Heyyyyy, whoa there pahtna!! Don't go jinxing me now!! I don't plan on driving any faster than the legal speed limit will allow......give or take 50mph!

(Knock, knock, on wood!)

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aaronrus
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Report this Post10-04-2007 11:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronrusClick Here to Email aaronrusSend a Private Message to aaronrusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


My sister-in-law has an 06 Grand Prix GXP with the LS4 and she gets 30mpg on the highway @ 60-65mph when the DoD is active. I figure in a Fiero once you consider the weight and aero differences, you should see 35mpg or more at the same speed. Now it should be noted that you probably won't get this good of fuel economy if you are tooling down the highway doing 80mph, or if you are driving thru hilly or mountain terrain. This is because the ECM for this LS4 will command the DoD system to deactivate at higher loads.


coool..thanks for answering those questions. Your information pretty much answered all my questions. i have been contemplating for a while weather to do a rebuild and build-up of a 4.9L, or just get a 5300 v8, it appears that even with all of its accesories, a built-up 4.9L weighs over 100 pounds less than a 5300( 371 pounds with all accesories according to jon lagler ), while performing about the same. I was getting 32 mpg on the highway at 70 mph in my citation x-11 with the econo 4 speed muncie attached to the 4.9L, i imagine that the luxury of tap shifting is one thing i would have to give up, and it deifnately does appeal to me, however, considering the difficulty of getting the ecm to work in the fiero and all the hoops i have to jump through, i'd almost rather just do a 4t60e coupled with a built up 4.9L.

Rick Stewart was getting 285 HP and 370 lb.ft. of TQ at the crank ( calculated assuming 18% drivetrain loss to the wheels because of the tranny) with his built up 4.9L with allante intake, using the delta cams .480 lift drop-in camshaft, and that was in a completely untuned state and he was running pig rich, so i can image that the HP numbers will rival the 5300 v8 when properly tuned..

as far as wihc swap is cost effective? i havent really sat down to crunch the numbers..

anyways, i will certainly be watching this thread intensely

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post10-04-2007 11:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I didnt mean anything with that post Ryan, I was just thinking out loud. I appreciate the clarification though, its great info.

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post10-05-2007 01:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by FIEROPHREK:


Hey Darth if you are really interested in a cam i have one that is not going to be used . I'm sure there are some LS4 guys on LS1tech that would love an cam option for thier DoD cars. Let me know if you want this cam and i can hook you up.



Thanks. PM sent.

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post10-05-2007 03:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here are some update pics of the modifications needed to the right side of the engine compartment. This particular car looks to of had a battery leak at one point which caused some damage in and around the area of the battery tray. As you can see in one of the pictures a plate had to be welded over a bad area that had rusted thru in a few places. Also pictured is the modified hinge support bracket.



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Fieroseverywhere
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Report this Post10-05-2007 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:





Just an FYI. If you remove the three 7mm screws from the C203 connector you can pass the whole wiring harness through the firewall. This will get it completely out of the way for when you install the firewall insulation. This is how I did mine last week. Works like a charm and takes all of 2 minutes to remove or re-install. I had a nice size hole under the battery tray also.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 10-05-2007).]

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post10-05-2007 07:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I am envious of your dog bone delete.

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Report this Post10-05-2007 07:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:



Thats a question. Are you going to re-enforce this area? I just did this myself and am still trying to decide whether I need to or not. You will be pushing more power then me but the same should apply.

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post10-05-2007 08:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ill answer that one.

Just look at the other side, youll see it looks identical to that side now.... so no you wont need anything there. I really have been wanting to do that on my swaps, It makes for a cool custom look among fiero guys.

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Report this Post10-05-2007 09:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:




Is removing the DB bracket going to solve the issue with the Alt clearance? From what I have seen, its going to have to be mounted low in the area that it is on the 3800 install. The install is looking good and all the pictures take the leg work out of my install. Thanks for providing all the pictures and the details about the swap.

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