My wife has been holding on to my father in laws last Fiero ('84'86 GT) pretty much since we were dating. He used to work on them for fun and at one point had 15 of them before having to downsize. I'm wanting to make him proud and try to get this last one up and running again, as well as expand my own mechanical knowledge.
The problem is that this thing has been sitting since we had been dating - roughly 6 years at this point without being touched. The last time it was moved was 5 years ago when we have it towed to our house and stored under a lean-to. I'm not a mechanic but I know just enough to get myself in trouble. According to my FIL the car was operational prior to my wife letting it sit, but she did not do anything with it other than let it sit.
Here's what I've done so far: - Replaced the battery with a new one. Attempted to crank the engine and sounds like it wants to do something, but just keeps spinning. - Siphoned all the gas out. I jumped the G port and emptied the tank using the fuel pump through the Schrader valve and open tester. Flushed with more fuel then repeated until empty, then added a couple fresh gallons. Looked / smelled like gas and did not appear gelled. Attempted to crank, nothing. - Double checked fluids and added / changed as needed. Oil, coolant, etc. Nothing. - Replaced all spark plugs. Shot some Fogging Oil into the chamber as well. Added starting fluid to the air filter and attempted to start, nothing.
Not being a mechanic I'm really at a loss on what to attempt next. I was considering of replacing the distributor cap and plug hoses but the weather hasn't been where I can work on it.
Any help would greatly be appreciated!
Edit: Corrected Year to 86
[This message has been edited by Leprithus (edited 09-13-2023).]
My wife has been holding on to my father in laws last Fiero ('84 GT) pretty much since we were dating. He used to work on them for fun and at one point had 15 of them before having to downsize. I'm wanting to make him proud and try to get this last one up and running again, as well as expand my own mechanical knowledge.
The problem is that this thing has been sitting since we had been dating - roughly 6 years at this point without being touched. The last time it was moved was 5 years ago when we have it towed to our house and stored under a lean-to. I'm not a mechanic but I know just enough to get myself in trouble. According to my FIL the car was operational prior to my wife letting it sit, but she did not do anything with it other than let it sit.
Here's what I've done so far: - Replaced the battery with a new one. Attempted to crank the engine and sounds like it wants to do something, but just keeps spinning. - Siphoned all the gas out. I jumped the G port and emptied the tank using the fuel pump through the Schrader valve and open tester. Flushed with more fuel then repeated until empty, then added a couple fresh gallons. Looked / smelled like gas and did not appear gelled. Attempted to crank, nothing. - Double checked fluids and added / changed as needed. Oil, coolant, etc. Nothing. - Replaced all spark plugs. Shot some Fogging Oil into the chamber as well. Added starting fluid to the air filter and attempted to start, nothing.
Not being a mechanic I'm really at a loss on what to attempt next. I was considering of replacing the distributor cap and plug hoses but the weather hasn't been where I can work on it.
Any help would greatly be appreciated!
Hi, welcome to Pennocks!!!
First things you'll want to address (with the group here) is what engine you have. There was never an 84 GT, so I'm thinking you may be confusing it with an 85 GT. The highest model of the 84 was the 84 2m4 SE, and the highest model in 1985 was a GT. The 1984 only came with a 4 cyl, and the 85 came with a V6, so knowing which engine you have will help with the diagnosis on how to get it running again.
Sounds like there might be a few things not working well.
First thing I would do is check to see if the computer has any error codes. You can do this by looking at the Fiero online service guide http://www.FieroOSG.com and going to ECM Trouble Codes: https://www.pontiacperforma...icles/OSG/codes.html The point of this is to see if the ECM is working.
Next, I would check to make sure you have spark. You can do this by removing a spark plug, keeping it connected to the spark plug wire and grounding it out, and seeing if you see any spark (will likely take two people). If you do not see a spark, it could be a problem with the distributor, a failed ignition coil, or a failed ignition control module.
Next, I would check to make sure you're getting fuel... if you have a V6, you can easily test the fuel pressure at the schrader valve, which is the little grey screw-up cap which is exposed just beneath the red intake manifold. If you have a 4 cyl, you'll want to hook up a gauge behind the fuel filter (which may need to be changed if it's clogged).
First things you'll want to address (with the group here) is what engine you have. There was never an 84 GT, so I'm thinking you may be confusing it with an 85 GT. The highest model of the 84 was the 84 2m4 SE, and the highest model in 1985 was a GT. The 1984 only came with a 4 cyl, and the 85 came with a V6, so knowing which engine you have will help with the diagnosis on how to get it running again.
Sounds like there might be a few things not working well.
First thing I would do is check to see if the computer has any error codes. You can do this by looking at the Fiero online service guide http://www.FieroOSG.com and going to ECM Trouble Codes: https://www.pontiacperforma...icles/OSG/codes.html The point of this is to see if the ECM is working.
Next, I would check to make sure you have spark. You can do this by removing a spark plug, keeping it connected to the spark plug wire and grounding it out, and seeing if you see any spark (will likely take two people). If you do not see a spark, it could be a problem with the distributor, a failed ignition coil, or a failed ignition control module.
Next, I would check to make sure you're getting fuel... if you have a V6, you can easily test the fuel pressure at the schrader valve, which is the little grey screw-up cap which is exposed just beneath the red intake manifold. If you have a 4 cyl, you'll want to hook up a gauge behind the fuel filter (which may need to be changed if it's clogged).
Fuel pressure seems to be holding good. That's how I emptied the tank, was jumping that port and using the pump.
It did have a check engine light but I assumed it was for the oil and hadn't gotten that far yet. I'll plug it into the code reader tonight and see what I can find, as well as rechecking the spark plugs. Thank you for linking the code resources.
[This message has been edited by Leprithus (edited 09-13-2023).]
I'll plug it into the code reader tonight and see what I can find, as well as rechecking the spark plugs. Thank you for linking the code resources.
Fiero isn't OBDII, so if that was your plan, it won't work.
Checking codes is very easy, though - if you have a paperclip, you can use that to bridge the connection on the ALDL connector - the CEL will flash the code numbers.
Doesn't have to be a paperclip - any small conductive element will work - in a pinch, I used a staple, once.
1. You need some way to get the data from the ECM-that's primarily a hardware/electronics issue since it requires connecting to the data terminal in the ALDL connector, in conjunction with putting the ECM into a mode that will transmit data out through the ALDL.
2. You need some way to show that data, which in part consists of taking the non-standard electrical signal from the ECM and converting it into human-meaningful terms before displaying it on a screen.
3. You need some way to record that data so that it can later be further manipulated to make it easier to interpret and study.
Different reading systems encompass different variations of the above. For instance, WinALDL (what I like) uses a WinALDL cable (just a transistor, some resistors, and a mouse cable or serial connector) to make the signal PC readable, then converts and displays the data on a screen. It also records data in simple text files already formatted for easy import into most spreadsheet programs for further manipulation. Cliff wrote a nifty program that takes that recorded data and creates graphic charts. WinALDL requires an OS that allows low-level hardware access to the serial port, a real serial port, but minimal processing power. A 486 or higher running Windows 9x works fine.
The ALDL cable that Oliver Scholz designed (and that I think can still be purchased through the Fiero Store) does the signal conversion and part of the data manipulation in one unit, outputting the information in a sort of text format. It requires different software to record and manipulate the data for further study. This unit is designed to work with a USB port rather than a serial port. I haven't looked at the software for it so don't know what, if any, software is available.
Purpose-built scanners such as the AutoXRay do all of the hardware and signal conversion, as well as display of basic data. Typically they don't offer the kind of full-blown recording ability that WinALDL and other PC-based systems do unless you purchase the much more expensive versions.
From my perspective, purpose-built scanners are best for repair diagnostics whereas the PC based systems are better for tuning and modifications.
[This message has been edited by Vintage-Nut (edited 09-13-2023).]
Next, I would check to make sure you have spark. You can do this by removing a spark plug, keeping it connected to the spark plug wire and grounding it out, and seeing if you see any spark...
Jumping a spark plug gap of 0.045" at atmospheric pressure means next to nothing. Outside of the combustion chamber, a healthy spark will have no problem snapping across a 1/4" gap.
Sometimes all it takes to regain a healthy spark is to disconnect and reconnect all ignition component connections, including the pick up coil connection under the distributor cap. This is due to corrosion which has occurred. I apply a dab of dielectric grease to all cleaned-up electrical connections before reconnecting them, in order to prevent corrosion and bad electrical contact down the road.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-13-2023).]
All say read "codes," Did you see replace the battery? Dead or disconnect battery clears any code. & ECM won't set new codes either when engine won't start. So... CEL reading = 12 only Scanner reports Nothing.
Check spark is good but missing ECM won't run injection until see that too. ECM spark ref & "ground" to ICM are bad or ECM is "dead" then won't run the injection. You need a Noid Light to tell the injector get pulses.
& If F-pump doesn't run when turn the key to On only for ~ 2 sec then FP Relay or ECM is "Dead." F-pump may run After you crank a long time to make oil pressure but Oil Sender is often bad too w/ old type sender.
"Dead" ECM can seem to work as CEL turn on w/ key on but 1 or more inputs or outputs can be bad & often not setting codes.
E2A--> If all of that is good, big vac leaks like iffy PB boost line, stuck/dead IAC, other things can make it hard or never start the engine.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
The fuel pump works, but does it turn on for a few seconds when you turn the ignition to "On"?
It does, that's how I was originally pumping the fuel out prior to jumping the G port.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
Sometimes all it takes to regain a healthy spark is to disconnect and reconnect all ignition component connections, including the pick up coil connection under the distributor cap. This is due to corrosion which has occurred. I apply a dab of dielectric grease to all cleaned-up electrical connections before reconnecting them, in order to prevent corrosion and bad electrical contact down the road.
I picked up an In-Line Spark Checker from Harbor Freight last night. Only tested 3 spark plug lines before it broke (cuz I'm an idiot who grabbed the line instead of the head of the connector and ripped it apart) but on those 3 it did not light up any on any. I disconnected the main plug going into the distributor cap and put a voltage meter on it; it is showing a current. Reconnected it, then used the voltage meter on the individual spark plug lines, which read 0.
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
All say read "codes," Did you see replace the battery? Dead or disconnect battery clears any code. & ECM won't set new codes either when engine won't start. So... CEL reading = 12 only Scanner reports Nothing.
The battery was replaced. I did not attempt to read any codes or jump anything at this time while diagnosing the spark plug issue.
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
Check spark is good but missing ECM won't run injection until see that too. ECM spark ref & "ground" to ICM are bad or ECM is "dead" then won't run the injection. You need a Noid Light to tell the injector get pulses.
& If F-pump doesn't run when turn the key to On only for ~ 2 sec then FP Relay or ECM is "Dead." F-pump may run After you crank a long time to make oil pressure but Oil Sender is often bad too w/ old type sender.
"Dead" ECM can seem to work as CEL turn on w/ key on but 1 or more inputs or outputs can be bad & often not setting codes.
E2A--> If all of that is good, big vac leaks like iffy PB boost line, stuck/dead IAC, other things can make it hard or never start the engine.
Good info all around. Gives me some more to look at, thank you guys. After looking a little more at the distrubor cap and rotor I'm going to start poking around at the hoses and make sure nothing is cracked or a critter didn't find themselves a new home and I just can't see it from the top.
Probably be a couple days before I get another chance to play with it but I'll be sure to update whenever there is one.
Originally posted by Leprithus: I picked up an In-Line Spark Checker from Harbor Freight last night. Only tested 3 spark plug lines before it broke (cuz I'm an idiot who grabbed the line instead of the head of the connector and ripped it apart) but on those 3 it did not light up any on any. I disconnected the main plug going into the distributor cap and put a voltage meter on it; it is showing a current. Reconnected it, then used the voltage meter on the individual spark plug lines, which read 0.
Ok, this right here is telling me a few things:
- You have NO power going to the spark plugs - You HAVE spark going TO the distributor from the ignition coil
I want to make sure what plug we're talking about... I'm not aware of the coil firing without being asked to do so from the ignition control module. So that tells me that the ignition control module is probably good. Can you test to see if you're getting spark from the spark plug leads on the distributor cap itself? (e.g., before it goes to the spark plug wire)? If yes, then that tells me the wires and / or plugs are shot. But if NO, then that would tell me that something else is wrong inside the distributor, like maybe the rotor is missing, or something else.
- You have NO power going to the spark plugs - You HAVE spark going TO the distributor from the ignition coil
I want to make sure what plug we're talking about... I'm not aware of the coil firing without being asked to do so from the ignition control module. So that tells me that the ignition control module is probably good. Can you test to see if you're getting spark from the spark plug leads on the distributor cap itself? (e.g., before it goes to the spark plug wire)? If yes, then that tells me the wires and / or plugs are shot. But if NO, then that would tell me that something else is wrong inside the distributor, like maybe the rotor is missing, or something else.
For clarification here's a picture: https://drive.google.com/fi...09c/view?usp=sharing It appears there is no power going to the spark plugs but power going into the distributor cap. I had the In-Line tester at the end of the lines (yellow circles) before it broke. I then used a voltage meter in the Green circle plug and there was current. I have not attempted to remove a plug on the cap (Purple circle) yet to test that post. Kiddo was trying to help and got hurt so we had to call it quits.
quote
Originally posted by Vintage-Nut:
If I remember correctly;
Pick-Up Coil to Ignition Control Module (ICM) to ECM to Ignition Coil to Distributor Cap to Distributor Rotor to Ignition Wires to Spark Plugs
To me, remove the Distributor Cap (two screws) to check corrosion on the rotor and cap terminals.
You didn't mention you have an aftermarket coil. That complicates things a bit.
When you post images, how about embedding them in you post, using the Upload Media link at the lower left of the message box.
The image file size also needs to be less than 2 MB to display here properly. (Otherwise, a hyperlink icon appears.) I re-compressed your 2.6 MB image.
And 2268x4032 is much larger than necessary. 1080x1920 is plenty big for use in an online post. A smaller image would help contribute to a smaller file size as well.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-14-2023).]
"Best" spark testers for most cars are basically mod'ed spark plug w/ a clip to ground. No guessing how to use & puts proper gap to protect the system. Sold under many PN from different sources. GM FSM & more listed them to test HEI DIS etc.
You never want many testing that jump a random gap. If the gap is too big, often "fails" because the spark found somewhere easier that often cause some other part to fail. The spark can burn thru plug wire, inside of dist, even coil(s). If gap is too short then may cause fake result & won't work to spark fuel mix under pressure.
Jumping a spark plug gap of 0.045" at atmospheric pressure means next to nothing. Outside of the combustion chamber, a healthy spark will have no problem snapping across a 1/4" gap.
This is very true - but - you can at least quick-verify that there is any spark, at all.
Weak spark is at least signs of life, zero spark is either they're doing something wrong, or more work is needed to increase it.
That said - since there's zero spark, and if you have an original distributor, the hall effect coil could have become open.
When you crank, do you see the RPM needle move at all? If not, IIRC you could have a bad ICM.
You didn't mention you have an aftermarket coil. That complicates things a bit.
When you post images, how about embedding them in you post, using the Upload Media link at the lower left of the message box.
The image file size also needs to be less than 2 MB to display here properly. (Otherwise, a hyperlink icon appears.) I re-compressed your 2.6 MB image.
And 2268x4032 is much larger than necessary. 1080x1920 is plenty big for use in an online post. A smaller image would help contribute to a smaller file size as well.
I was trying to figure out why the Link/Image buttons weren't working. Thank you! I wasn't aware it was an aftermarket coil.
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
"Best" spark testers for most cars are basically mod'ed spark plug w/ a clip to ground. No guessing how to use & puts proper gap to protect the system. Sold under many PN from different sources. GM FSM & more listed them to test HEI DIS etc.
You never want many testing that jump a random gap. If the gap is too big, often "fails" because the spark found somewhere easier that often cause some other part to fail. The spark can burn thru plug wire, inside of dist, even coil(s). If gap is too short then may cause fake result & won't work to spark fuel mix under pressure.
I went ahead and replaced the rotor and distributor cap earlier today. Still does not seem to be sending anything to the spark plug lines. Attempted to start the engine with the cap off to make sure everything was moving correctly. The part the rotor sits on (I'm guessing the distributor, still learning) does rotate although looks quite rusty. Put the cap back on and removed a plug from the cap, hooked to voltage meter and no power was going to any of the 6 ports off the new dist. cap.
I'll try to snag a better picture in the morning of what it looks like under there.
I was trying to figure out why the Link/Image buttons weren't working.
One other thing I should mention, as this has fooled me a few times... you need to be logged into the forum before trying to upload an image. Otherwise, nothing happens.
