Keep in mind the failure rate of the ebay Chinese turbos is extremely quick and high. Many fail within weeks due to tolerance issues.
Anyway, this turbo intake has been ported out to 64+ mm. Of course you don't have to use one with that large of an opening. Here are some more shots. There's more than $50 in work done to it. Looks pretty clean inside.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 04-05-2020).]
Oh yeah, can't wait to get it. Did you get my last PM Sourmash? I just need to know how you'd like to receive your money.
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:
Keep in mind the failure rate of the ebay Chinese turbos is extremely quick and high. Many fail within weeks due to tolerance issues.
Anyway, this turbo intake has been ported out to 64+ mm. Of course you don't have to use one with that large of an opening. Here are some more shots. There's more than $50 in work done to it. Looks pretty clean inside.
Yeah that is a lot wider opening than I would probably use, I think I'm just going to go with the guy that Ray recommended and port a stock TB to 56mm and just make a gasket so that's a little more plug and play. I do wonder though if it will fit...
[This message has been edited by SpaceLion (edited 04-05-2020).]
I replied to the one PM a few days ago, but that was the only one. For me I'd save the money and use a larger TB and replace the electrical plug and any hose fittings. Especially for a potential turbo later. The stock intake is about 51.9mm with this caliper. You'd have to drill and tap for the Fiero TB and it's pretty close to the opening of the intake throat to fit a stock TB. It's probably doable but it's not so difficult to change the TB itself and save the 150 and spend half on reworking to a larger TB.
Along with the TB I'd do the exhaust manifold mods and cross-over mods that people talk about.
It looks like you have been doing the right sorts of things. The injectors may be just slightly large, but not so much that you will have issues with idle.
I've built two engines for these cars over the years. The first was a stroked 3.2 (.040" over using an 3.1 crank) with special low compression pistons and an IHI turbo boosting at 10 psi. Very reliable and very quick, and lasted well for almost 20 years. Custom Comp Cams stick designed specifically for turbo use and their roller high ratio rockers and springs, and forged custom Ross pistons to keep it all together. Lots of fun with Porsches that didn't have a turbo in there.
The second engine was a naturally aspirated engine based on a 3.4 engine, with a Crane 272 cam, a bunch of head work and a reworked Firebird/Camaro intake manifold which isn't perfect but gives you a starting point way ahead of the stock Fiero manifold. The removal of restrictions in the head, and manifolds (including the use of a 62 mm TB), and including exhaust opened things up very nicely and the engine no longer runs out of steam below 5,000 - t pulls cleanly to 6,000 at which point you might as well shift as power is dropping off.
Yes , luckily a previous owner had a true dual exhaust put on. I'll have to see what I'm working with when I take physical ownership on the car in June. We'll see. I replied to your reply also.
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:
I replied to the one PM a few days ago, but that was the only one. For me I'd save the money and use a larger TB and replace the electrical plug and any hose fittings. Especially for a potential turbo later. The stock intake is about 51.9mm with this caliper. You'd have to drill and tap for the Fiero TB and it's pretty close to the opening of the intake throat to fit a stock TB. It's probably doable but it's not so difficult to change the TB itself and save the 150 and spend half on reworking to a larger TB.
Along with the TB I'd do the exhaust manifold mods and cross-over mods that people talk about.
Bill, You have a Fiberfab Jamaican?? I only just recently discovered these cars and I absolutely love the styling. Clearly inspired my the Miura/GT/E-Type. Rumor has it there were about 250 made. I actually found one on facebook marketplace last month in Ohio the guy was selling for 3500. I immediately offered him his asking price, saw that he read my message, followed up a couple of times, saw that he read those, no reply. A couple of weeks later, it was marked as sold. Definitely on my dream sheet. I've just been doing a lot of research on these lately so it's weird to see yours pop up in the thread about the car that I bought instead.. lol. Very cool. Let me know if you ever sell it.
quote
Originally posted by BillS:
It looks like you have been doing the right sorts of things. The injectors may be just slightly large, but not so much that you will have issues with idle.
I've built two engines for these cars over the years. The first was a stroked 3.2 (.040" over using an 3.1 crank) with special low compression pistons and an IHI turbo boosting at 10 psi. Very reliable and very quick, and lasted well for almost 20 years. Custom Comp Cams stick designed specifically for turbo use and their roller high ratio rockers and springs, and forged custom Ross pistons to keep it all together. Lots of fun with Porsches that didn't have a turbo in there.
The second engine was a naturally aspirated engine based on a 3.4 engine, with a Crane 272 cam, a bunch of head work and a reworked Firebird/Camaro intake manifold which isn't perfect but gives you a starting point way ahead of the stock Fiero manifold. The removal of restrictions in the head, and manifolds (including the use of a 62 mm TB), and including exhaust opened things up very nicely and the engine no longer runs out of steam below 5,000 - t pulls cleanly to 6,000 at which point you might as well shift as power is dropping off.
It looks like you have been doing the right sorts of things. The injectors may be just slightly large, but not so much that you will have issues with idle.
I've built two engines for these cars over the years. The first was a stroked 3.2 (.040" over using an 3.1 crank) with special low compression pistons and an IHI turbo boosting at 10 psi. Very reliable and very quick, and lasted well for almost 20 years. Custom Comp Cams stick designed specifically for turbo use and their roller high ratio rockers and springs, and forged custom Ross pistons to keep it all together. Lots of fun with Porsches that didn't have a turbo in there.
The second engine was a naturally aspirated engine based on a 3.4 engine, with a Crane 272 cam, a bunch of head work and a reworked Firebird/Camaro intake manifold which isn't perfect but gives you a starting point way ahead of the stock Fiero manifold. The removal of restrictions in the head, and manifolds (including the use of a 62 mm TB), and including exhaust opened things up very nicely and the engine no longer runs out of steam below 5,000 - t pulls cleanly to 6,000 at which point you might as well shift as power is dropping off.
Keep in mind the failure rate of the ebay Chinese turbos is extremely quick and high. Many fail within weeks due to tolerance issues.
Possibly so but porting will never get you anywhere near as much air into the engine than as a Turbo. If you are concerned about Chinese turbo quality then a good used Garrett, HKS, or Holset may be the ticket.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Keep in mind the failure rate of the ebay Chinese turbos is extremely quick and high. Many fail within weeks due to tolerance issues.
it's worth mentioning to, that there are plenty of people making big power on the Chinese turbos, and have been for a long time. it's also worth mentioning that in some instances, you can buy 2 or 3 of them for the price of say, a precision 6266.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
That intake is a choker bill! Beautiful car tough!
IIRC the F body intake flows significantly better than the necked down Fiero intake, but not as well as the Truleo, nor probably than a reworked Fiero with added volume. Anyone know of a thread with the various flow stats?
The F body intake, reworked internally and bored out for the 62 mm TB completely cured the throttled chicken act the stock engine does when you ask it to rev a bit. For the record, a similarly relieved stock Fiero intake with a turbo also flows, but that is mostly the turbo.
Had I really wanted much better flow I would have gone with an alloy head engine, but IIRC they are slightly taller and my engine height was critical - to put this body on the MG chassis, they cut down the firewall and ditched the heater because it wouldn't fit. That left very little room over a V6 engine for a flat hood without a scoop. We had to drop the engine as low as we could just to get it under that hood.
Does anyone recall the engine heights on a 2.8 vs. the F body 3.4? (It's been almost 15 years since I did the Jamaican and I don't recall the measurements).
BTW, getting the Fiero valve covers on a 3.4 is a bit of a ***** - they foul the underside of the intake manifold but only just so they need to be clearanced.
Does anyone recall the engine heights on a 2.8 vs. the F body 3.4? (It's been almost 15 years since I did the Jamaican and I don't recall the measurements).
BTW, getting the Fiero valve covers on a 3.4 is a bit of a ***** - they foul the underside of the intake manifold but only just so they need to be clearanced.
Possibly so but porting will never get you anywhere near as much air into the engine than as a Turbo. If you are concerned about Chinese turbo quality then a good used Garrett, HKS, or Holset may be the ticket.
I didn' t say don't go turbo. It's the ebay Chinese turbos I warned about, yes, those super cheapies. And gobs of wheels are made in some part of Asia, even the ones I bought new. And I wouldn't have any major concerns about a used turbo, or rebuilding one of those you mentioned. One in my garage is from a 300ZX, a T3 with oiled and watered center section I'd like to build into a T3/T4 hybrid for something. The only new turbos I ever bought were 800 apiece for a new Frankenturbos for an Audi. The wheels were made in Malaysia I think so it's not the Asian thing I'm saying. And there are other Asian/Chinese parts but the competent assembly of them is what pays off. That's what I paid for when I bought those, but there's Asian parts in them. Do the homework and don't let the price decide for you. If you buy the ebay Chinese cheapie and aren't going to use it/them right away (warranty lost, IOWs) find someone who knows how to check it/them over.
You don't have to pay 800 each like I did. But an Audi 2.7tt is about a 27 hr job, so...that makes a difference in choosing. The Borg=Warners didn't make sense at the time. Too much.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 04-06-2020).]
it's worth mentioning to, that there are plenty of people making big power on the Chinese turbos, and have been for a long time. it's also worth mentioning that in some instances, you can buy 2 or 3 of them for the price of say, a precision 6266.
Ok, that's excellent. So which ones do you recommend then? A link to ones you have confidence in would be very helpful.
it's worth mentioning to, that there are plenty of people making big power on the Chinese turbos, and have been for a long time. it's also worth mentioning that in some instances, you can buy 2 or 3 of them for the price of say, a precision 6266.
If you do that, it would be worth anticipating the possibility of the Chinese turbos not working out, and throwing the towel and getting a genuine "name-brand" unit.
So you would want to check that a name-brand turbo exists in the same physical form factor (frame size, compressor inlet/outlet diameters, turbine flanges, oil and water connection positions, etc).
If the name-brand turbo doesn't have the exact same form factor, you're going to be wasting money redoing plumbing and re-fitting it in the engine bay.
I started with an ebay T3 0.63 A/R turbine housing... when I got a genuine Mexican Garrett with an ATP turbine housing (also T3 0.63 A/R), I found that the turbine housings were dimensionally different, despite being nominally "the same".
It wouldn't have been possible to change from one turbo style to another without a bunch of rework.
That being said, PM Brunelle's recommendation is a very good one. make sure you get something that you can buy again, or a bolt in replacement of, I made this mistake a few years ago and went through hell finding a replacement.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Which the same can be said for my original post about the ebay Chinese turbos and to keep the much higher and faster failure rate in mind (when making your choice).
Which the same can be said for my original post about the ebay Chinese turbos and to keep the much higher and faster failure rate in mind (when making your choice).
Failure rate is a really hard metric to use for something like a turbo. I say this because people will tend to attribute failure to the product, when the problem could very well stem from a piss poor installation. too much oil, not enough, not installed level or with a proper drain, improperly sized for the application ect. that's not to say they don't fail due to material defect or workmanship, but the big picture isn't always as clear as we would like it to be. Couple that with the fact that the majority of people purchasing these Chinese turbos are likely younger, less experienced individuals who may not know what is required, or what correct looks like.
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Research shows they have the same 224mm Deck Height.
all pushrod 60 degree V6 passenger car(and S series truck/SUV) engines have the same deck height, up to the LX9 3500. this includes the 3.4 twin dual cam engines, but does not include the High Feature line (3.6 DOHC engines) or the GMC 60V6 of the 60's. I believe the High Value line (VCT engines,3900, LZ4 3500 ect.) also have the same deck height, but I haven't verified that myself.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Failure rate is a really hard metric to use for something like a turbo. I say this because people will tend to attribute failure to the product, when the problem could very well stem from a piss poor installation. too much oil, not enough, not installed level or with a proper drain, improperly sized for the application ect. that's not to say they don't fail due to material defect or workmanship, but the big picture isn't always as clear as we would like it to be. Couple that with the fact that the majority of people purchasing these Chinese turbos are likely younger, less experienced individuals who may not know what is required, or what correct looks like.
None of that is a valid argument to disprove my statement when speaking of like for like owners of like for like cars. I specifically didn't state the same failure rate for ebay Borg Waners, Garrett, HKS, Holset for the same make of car because the failure rate is not as high or fast for those examples based on what I've witnessed posted on specific forums. Like for like owners of like for like model of car I've seen have reported higher and faster failure rates of ebay Chinese turbos than the others. Where you have pairs of turbos being bought and used, it's not uncommon for one to underperform the other and/or fail quickly while the other won't have an issue. With the Audi I mentioned you have to pull the engine to replace turbos so you hear about this because it hurts more than with other makes.
Originally posted by sourmash: None of that is a valid argument to disprove my statement when speaking of like for like owners of like for like cars. I specifically didn't state the same failure rate for ebay Borg Waners, Garrett, HKS, Holset for the same make of car because the failure rate is not as high or fast for those examples based on what I've witnessed posted on specific forums. Like for like owners of like for like model of car I've seen have reported higher and faster failure rates of ebay Chinese turbos than the others. Where you have pairs of turbos being bought and used, it's not uncommon for one to underperform the other and/or fail quickly while the other won't have an issue. With the Audi I mentioned you have to pull the engine to replace turbos so you hear about this because it hurts more than with other makes.
That wasn't meant to say they are a 0 failure rate, and gods gift to man, more to say that statistics don't always tell the whole story.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I understand. So do you believe the ebay Chinese turbos don't have a higher and/or faster failure rate than the brands mentioned in this thread?
I wouldn't say that. I believe that the quality of the installation of said turbos is frequently "just send it" and when a failure occurs the "made in china POS" turbo is blamed regardless of whether it was the root cause of the failure or not. this leads the failure numbers to be inflated higher than the failure due to the turbo being low quality, which makes the difference between the "name brand" and china turbo seem larger than it is.
I also think that people love to complain, so when a failure occurs, you're more likely to hear about it, than a success.
TL;DR,
failure Due to quatity + failure due to crappy install > just failure due to quality > name brand failures (but not by as much as people think)
that's my thoughts, I may be right, I may be wrong, but do you understand what I mean?
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I do understand what you're saying and I'm not totally discounting it. On the flip side there is also dynamic where buyers don't like to admit that despite warnings they bought anyway and experienced the specific problem. Some people do like to complain and of course shift blame and there are people who won't admit a mistake to the point of defending their decision and the supplier.
No, the same. The block is able to take the larger bore and the compression height on the pistons is adjusted for the longer stroke.
On my turbo engine in the Fiero I had to use a short (Fiero) stroke crank because the 3.4 was brand new and no parts were out there yet. On the Jamaican I used a 3.4 engine so no issues.
The longer stroke gets you to 3.1 and adds some very welcome mid range torque and the larger bore added on the 3.4 gets you the extra 0.3 liters.
I wanted to state in here that MORE is not always better; I grew up a "Ford man" and found out back in the mid-70s about the 351 Cleveland situation. Ford made the heads "Ready for Trans Am racing"- Gigantic ports and valves....But the problem was they did not flow well at low RPM- the fuel-air mixture would STAGNATE and separate before reaching the combustion chamber.....I remember riding in a friend's Cougar.....Floor it and nothing would happen for a few seconds- the engine barely pulling...then as it reached 3000 rpm, it would start to pull stronger and stronger. It is better to MATCH the flow of your heads and intake to the RPM capability of your engine- not TOP RPM but the RPM BAND in Total.
(Note; There were two Cleveland heads; 2-Barrel for engines with 2 barrel Carburetors and 4-Barrel Heads for use in performance applications with 4 barrel carburetors; They are actually labeled as 2V and 4V- but they are both TWO valve Pushrod heads)
Two things about those Cleveland heads; A) The 2 barrel heads flowed less- it was well-known that, everything else being equal (Trany, axle ratio and vehicle weight), the 2 barrel engine would beat the 4 barrel engine out of the hole by a couple of car lengths.....The 4 barrel would start catching up towards the end of the quarter.
B) Believe it or not, the 4 barrel (Two VALVE) Cleveland heads (circa 1970) flow better on the intake side than the new Coyote V8 4 VALVE heads! (The exhaust side sucks because of the packaging problems created by (1st gen) Mustang spring towers- The exhaust had to do a 90 degree turn down)
[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 04-10-2020).]
Wow you did a nice job there, but remember - I speculated that there is such a thing as too big an opening. I did lose a few ft*lbs of torque below 4600 rpm if you watch the video I made of my dyno on the first page of this thread. However - if you're going for power to 6000+ rpm then great!
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 04-10-2020).]
haha this took me 6 hours to do! not hard just takes time and a bunch of Dremel cutters and sanding bits. if I was going to do this I would have to charge 200 plus part cost and shipping.
1)For NA application only going to the 5500 RPM range would it be better to open the runners up internally instead of the above modification? 2) For turbo application which would be better, or would both be optimal?
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 04-11-2020).]
I’ve done both this muddle intake mod as well as the plenum mod eliminating all the runners internally there (first page) I have also bored the TB to just over 57mm with the plenum neck to match. My plan is to dyno the car now with a new 3.4 260h cam sprint headers ported Heads aftermarket y pipe Rodney dickman performance pully set up. Then dyno it after I install the modified plenum and middle intake and go to 1.6 roller rockers to give me the equivalent of a 272 cam. We will see how she goes. I really want more breathing and high end power band.
Lous dyno showed a minor decrease in torque not HP in the mid range. If this mod carries the HP band further up towards 5500 plus then I think it’s worth it. Everyone knows that the intake in these cars give good gain to 4500 then drop off like a rock.
It probably would be quicker/easier to just take the middle intake to a machine shop and have them mill a slot down the center to remove the port wall material.
Originally posted by jjd2296:Lous dyno showed a minor decrease in torque not HP in the mid range and not falling on it's face above 4500. If this mod carries the HP band further up towards 5500 plus then I think it’s worth it. Everyone knows that the intake in these cars give good gain to 4500 then drop off like a rock.
When I said power, it didn't mean hp. I really mean torque. Most of us want torque through middle RPMs. I want increases in low to mid torque and any benefits to 5500 along with it would be great. Whether that's opening the exhaust & intake and using 1.6 lifters or if that doesn't do it then porting something in the intake, that would be ideal.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 04-11-2020).]
