Apologies for the new topic on an old subject, but I am having a serious problem with my 87 Fiero GT’s handbrake that I am hoping someone may be able to help with and I don’t see any other specific topic here. My car had its biennial inspection last month and was only at fault on the handbrake. I needed new callipers as the levers were sticking, so I replaced them straight away. I took the opportunity to replace all 4 discs and pads but not the handbrake cables, as I previously replaced the back (left and right) cables in 2017 and the front cable earlier this year. Having read up on everything handbrake related I could find, I carried out adjustments and fine-tuned the brakes/handbrake the best I could, but still no joy. It should be noted with the handbrake applied, I am unable to move the car an inch, but the Test Centre can move the wheels on their modern roller machine.
Having given up, I reluctantly sent my car to the garage for the mechanics to repair, something I swore I would never do again. Of course, the first thing the garage wanted was 3 new cables…. I just went ahead and ordered them and passed them to the garage. A week later, expecting the car to be finished with a new MOT Test Certificate (TÜV for Germany), the only thing they seem to have done is fitted the 3 new cables then given up themselves! Oh and of course produced a bill for €130 for that privilege.
So, I have an excellent car that I am unable to drive with all new brakes, all working but no Test Certificate until I find a way for the 80s technology handbrake to better lock.
That's just a parking brake. They hardly ever work well. I've never seen one on a Fiero that was more than mildly effective. I have no idea what the state inspectors expect to see.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Here they expect to see a min of 16% (from memory) efficiency...else your handbrake does not meet the minimum standard...and your car is deemed unroadworthy.
Here they expect to see a min of 16% (from memory) efficiency...else your handbrake does not meet the minimum standard...and your car is deemed unroadworthy.
Isn't it great to have to ask permission of government in order to drive your own classic car? I guess that they believe that its not your property but theirs.. Here in my state of NJ any any automobile 25 years or older is completely exempt from state inspection. Glad that I don't live overseas.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Vehicles made for U.S. and Canada markets are never make to be an "Emergency" brake, Not even for the them. Federal Test Standards, FMVSS/CMVSS 571.105 and 571.135, only test for Holding a Parked car Up and Down given % Grade of Incline for 5 minutes. 105 is 30% grade covers all before around 1996 models. 135 is 20% after 1995.
That should give you a better test beyond can't move brake on while parked.
You might have a iffy lever causing hard to apply the Parking brakes... Rust etc in pivots will eat user effort to pull on the lever. GM "spec" is pull lever 9 clicks Max but never say min/max Force needed. If you pull more clicks then angle is likely "wrong" for you hand and arm and can't generate enough force. That "spec" is from Fiero FSM Brake section. I've read entire brake section in several FSM and never find Lever Force. FMVSS 105 is 90 lb Max for hand operated but many Users can't manage that much force w/ one hand.
Note that above Fed standards and tests are after other tests for brakes including the brakes are "Broken In" during the process. So... If you test the Parking Brake function with new pads/rotors/both and don't "Break in" those parts then can fail for this reason. In normal driving can take a weak or more to fully bed the pads to the rotors.
Look up MOT/TÜV force needed and put a scale on center of handle then pull the scale then test. You want it to work w/ less then max allowed.
Plus just how you replace rear calipers can matter... Rebuilt by you, shop, or even a "factory" somewhere often have problems. Many shops and "factories" often reused old piston or "Rebuild" them was never design to rebuilt. Only Some use New Pistons.
Pads can matter to. Harder pads can take longer to bed. "Race" pads often need higher heat to work right even for normal driving.
My guess the Current MOT/TÜV test won't many pass older cars make in/for the EU markets either. I know that UK MOT has "Updated" rules there to fail more cars earlier this year. IOW Is design to fail them so you force to spend more to fix or simply junk them.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I would suggest making sure your pads are well seated/bedded, then you can jack the back of the car up- make sure the rear wheels turn easily and then adjust the parking brake until it just starts to have an effect on the wheels rotation. If you have only a short distance to drive the car to go to the inspection, this may work well ....Later, after you have passed, back off the adjustment so your brakes are not dragging at all.
And Dennis, I get your argument, but here in CA we don't have any vehicle safety inspections- I can tell you that 20% of the cars on the road aren't safe (Probably 10% are not even worthy of being scrap metal!)...There is a balance- rarely met by any govt!
...you can jack the back of the car up- make sure the rear wheels turn easily and then adjust the parking brake until it just starts to have an effect on the wheels rotation. If you have only a short distance to drive the car to go to the inspection, this may work well ....Later, after you have passed, back off the adjustment so your brakes are not dragging at all.
That's exactly what I did to get my '88 Formula to pass the BC provincial inspection when I brought it up from Washington State. The parking brake had to hold on a steep hill, and it (finally) did after I adjusted the parking brake to be dragging.
I know this is still a hydraulic approach rather than a cable setup but a little imagination and some common tools and no one would know. Yes hydraulic systems can leak down but you only have to pass a park brake test which takes (x) minutes or less.
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Originally posted by Spoon: I know this is still a hydraulic approach rather than a cable setup but a little imagination and some common tools and no one would know. Yes hydraulic systems can leak down but you only have to pass a park brake test which takes (x) minutes or less.
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Very likely will Not pass inspection in most of EU with BS like above or "line locks" either.
MOT/TÜV rules are more strict then most U.S. States that even have "Safety Inspection." Quoted because is a joke to think they actually work except maybe on cars w/ Major problems for most of the U.S.
Some states have 2 to 5 years between inspections. NY Shops that "certified" to do NYS Inspections may take wheel or two off a car during inspection but never actually test the service or parking brakes. Other states have a "brake dino" you drive on then stop to test the service brakes but not the parking brake. The test is such a low speed test nearly all will pass. If exterior lights simply turn on, you pass in most states. Yet Cops in same states can stop you w/ bad lights. Bad doesn't = Dead/Blown bulbs.
If German Inspection is about same a UK MOT then you must have all factory parts working when the Inspector test each of them. Even HL must have correct light pattern on the test machine or instant fail because many idiots put illegal HID or LED in Halogen HL shells. In many places the Owner/Driver Does Not stay in the car during testing.
If you try to cheat by adjusting so pads drag... may fail for the service brake /w problems. Worse, Driving w/ pads dragging can cause brake fade, brake failure or even a fire getting to/from the inspection or driving anywhere else.
Thank you Gents for your support. It would be lengthy to try and reply individually, so please forgive me if I only respond to certain people on this thread. I will have either noted your comment for further investigation or have previously carried out the advice you have given, which again I am very grateful for. I know how this will end…. When I got get the handbrake to pass the test, I will have become the darn expert of Fiero brakes!!! grrrrrr
I would like to state that I have a second Fiero, which I would like to renovate properly and return it to service, but in the meantime, I robbed the discs and pads from it. They were much better than mine, so I would say they are broken and bedded in.
The front callipers were purchased either new or reconditioned in 2017. The rear callipers were reconditioned and bought in October. The piston and lever arm move quite freely with no friction and with new springs easily return to their start point. I have read all I can, especially in the Ogre’s Cave and have adjusted the tension to about 5 clicks max without dragging.
All brakes have been bled and the fluid changed. I believe they now work exactly as intended. It does not pass the test on the rollers…..
I will research what the ‘minimum efficiency rating’ in Germany for a car older than 96 should be, but if there are any technical details apart from the 30* decline for 5 minutes test, I would appreciate them. Thank you.
[This message has been edited by Darthscooby1001 (edited 11-23-2019).]
You should support the rear of the car, remove the rear wheels and actuate the brake levers individually with a wrench, or something appropriate and note the amount of travel of each lever. I recall having a caliper that worked under normal braking, but apparently had some sort of internal failure that rendered the lever ineffective although it appeared to move fine.
I also learned the hard way on a Fiero not to ignore cleaning and lubricating the caliper slides, after realizing from severe uneven pad wear that the caliper slides were sticking. If that is happening, you'll have a firm emergency brake lever feel, but poor emergency brake hold, because only the caliper piston side pad will be moving freely to apply force. On one side I had a pad worn into a ramp/wedge shape and on the other one pad showed considerable wear while the other had near new thickness.
I also found that remanufactured calipers were hit, or miss.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-23-2019).]
I just had a quick peruse of the MOT test rules for hand brake in England. It is minimum 16% efficiency (for Fiero).
I didn't find much else that might be helpful to your plight..... Though did find out that cars made in 1914 or earlier are exempt from handbrake test!!! Which is odd as cars from 1968 and older are exempt from MOT testing.
Can you find someone more sympathetic to the cars age/design to conduct the test? I did note our MOT test allows some wriggle room in terms of interpretation with text such as:
"A gradient tester can be used on vehicles that are not suitable for a parking brake test with the primary brake tester or decelerometer."
So, if deemed "not suitable" for primary brake tester or primary brake tester is out of service..there are other options but completely at discretion of tester.
Will be very interested to know how you solve this, which I'm sure you will. I will report back with my efficiency readings when next MOT test is done.
I personally welcome an MOT test as it is really a minimum test of roadworthiness. There are a lot of things that they do not check and other things that they are only allowed to advise on.
My work ve-hickle recently had a small water leak, invisible from the outside but by removing the entirety of the interior in the back of the car I found a substantial rusted out section around a rear seatbelt anchor point. A massive safety defect but completely invisible and undetectable on an MOT test which allows them to check that the inertia reel functions but not remove panels to inspect. So while valuable it is a bare minimum which some rely on as a complete health check..... Which it most definitely is not.
You should support the rear of the car, remove the rear wheels and actuate the brake levers individually with a wrench, or something appropriate and note the amount of travel of each lever. I recall having a caliper that worked under normal braking, but apparently had some sort of internal failure that rendered the lever ineffective although it appeared to move fine.
I also learned the hard way on a Fiero not to ignore cleaning and lubricating the caliper slides, after realizing from severe uneven pad wear that the caliper slides were sticking. If that is happening, you'll have a firm emergency brake lever feel, but poor emergency brake hold, because only the caliper piston side pad will be moving freely to apply force. On one side I had a pad worn into a ramp/wedge shape and on the other one pad showed considerable wear while the other had near new thickness.
I also found that remanufactured calipers were hit, or miss.
If the rebuilder assembled one of the calipers with the wrong handed mechanism inside the piston, that parking brake would not work. It's work a check.
Also, I assume that upgrading the brakes to the 11.25" system done fairly often on US Fieros would be a bureaucratic nightmare im Duetschland.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-25-2019).]
I will research what the ‘minimum efficiency rating’ in Germany for a car older than 96 should be, but if there are any technical details apart from the 30* decline for 5 minutes test, I would appreciate them. Thank you.
FYI, a 30 degree slope and a 30 percent grade are two VERY different things. A 30% grade is "only" about 16.7 degrees. It's still VERY steep for a car.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-25-2019).]
Thanks again guys for your continuing help and advice. A new development has occurred which might explain all the problems I have been having: My pedal is now going easily to the floor! it must be pumped up again to work, then pressing gently, it will sink back down again. I believe this to be the Master Cylinder that has given up, i.e. leaking air into the system, so I have ordered a replacement. The testing garage did say the normal brakes, although passing inspection were not great, so I believe the Master Cylinder has been slowly leaking for some time and I have eventually dislodged it whilst bleeding multiple times. I will update you all when the new one has been fitted. Yes I know about bench bleeding etc.
Originally posted by Darthscooby1001: Thanks again guys for your continuing help and advice. A new development has occurred which might explain all the problems I have been having: My pedal is now going easily to the floor! it must be pumped up again to work, then pressing gently, it will sink back down again. I believe this to be the Master Cylinder that has given up, i.e. leaking air into the system, so I have ordered a replacement. The testing garage did say the normal brakes, although passing inspection were not great, so I believe the Master Cylinder has been slowly leaking for some time and I have eventually dislodged it whilst bleeding multiple times. I will update you all when the new one has been fitted. Yes I know about bench bleeding etc.
Likely because "Pedal Bleeding" can destroy a MC w/ dirt/corrosion problems. See my Cave, Brake Service and Bleeding MC notes
Replacing a iffy/dead MC may help the parking brake Because you push the pedal down then pull the lever while doing that. From 87 Owner Manual... (Get full copy at http://www.fieronews.net/fusion/downloads.php )
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE
If you or "MOT" inspector fails to use above direction or have hydraulic problems then likely P-brake will fail to hold at any time not just failed on the machine.
Depending on exactly what MC Seal(s) are bad... Most times is Secondary seal(s) bad and leak fluid internally so can't make hydro pressure. No air in the MC. Primary main seal could do same. Iffy Primary rear seal can leak fluid "on the floor," let air in, or both. Quick Take-up Section sees little pressure and suck air in thru bad rear seal.
QT valve and seal can "leak" fluid like first 2 but not air. If QT valve is blocked up, Primary Rear can try to suck air because is just a basic "o-ring" and won't handle much pressure or vacuum. (Other piston seals are "Cup" type and must handle full working pressure.)
Can "break" a tank or wreck tank seal(s) but won't cause low/floored pedal unless tank goes dry. Small cracks can hold fluid w/ little or no fluid "on the floor." might only drip very slowly and even then be temperature related.
F'd lines, fittings or combi valve should leak fluid "on the floor" too.
Ok, I changed the master cylinder today. After bench bleeding it, I bled the pipes after putting it on, then all 4 calipers. I won't say they are wonderful, but the brakes are working as good as they previously did.
Back to the handbrake. I have readjusted everything again and was quite confident, as I could not turn the rear wheels at all. however, the handbrake handle now comes up past 11 clicks and runs out of clicks! The equaliser is adjusted as tight as it can be, but there is still slack in the L & R cables. The levers on the calipers are in the right place and the hand brake does feel better. However, I test drove the car up and down the street and only once did the car stall pulling away with the handbrake on. Each time after, it just pulled away regardless. I doubt it will hold the car on the rollers, so I now need to look for other solutions as the cables appear to be too long
Follow P-brake "adjustment" in cave. This and other methods are not a good adjustment but give you an idea what is wrong because Too much pad clearance is never going to have P-brake working. Main pedal is often "low" trying to stop normally too. Basically Caliper levers will tighten on the shim w/ lever moving only a little. Little I mean next to nothing. A bit more w/o the shim. And that's w/o pushing the pedal. Why? "Rebuild" calipers are often bad and pistons won't self adjust and the "adjustment" might help but soon have same problems again or worse.
Is raining so can't take pictures etc of p-brake on my car.
Might be wrong cables for each wheel, main cable or all of them. Where did you buy them? brand and PN for them?
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 12-02-2019).]
Ok, after adding an extra block to the end of each brake cable at the calipers, I was able to shorten the length and could adjust tension once more at the equalizer. Handbrake now pulls up to about 8 clicks. The Wagner cables I bought from Rockautos were not longer, but the stopper on the ends of the cables that are more towards the end, adding a total of approx. 4 cm. Too much for the equalizer to adjust. But I know now. Hope that makes sense?
Anyway, I carried out all the adjustments from the cave and was confident I had it right... Yeah, the handbrake failed miserably on the rollers. It reached level one and the guy said it should reach level 3-4 to work. What was worse even, the normal foot brake was no better and didn’t even slow the car down on the rollers! I am beginning to think that perhaps the handbrake was never the problem and there is a braking problem instead. The pedal does not sink to the floor like it did prior to changing the master cylinder, but it does travel halfway down before beginning to slow the car! I think first I am going to inspect all of the lines and hoses then start and bleed everything once again.
I'm not a brake expert but after owning 6 Fieros over the past 25 years I've had my share of brake issues. Have you replaced the flex lines at each caliper? Are the rotors running true? Caliper slides working properly and lubed? Is the proportioning valve working properly? Sounds like the master cylinder was replaced and bench bleed as were the calipers. Not much left to check.
Low and/or soft pedal is often a big sign still have air in the system, Too much pad clearance, or both. Hoses won't cause this but may need them anyway. The "proportion" valve part of the combi valve likely isn't a problem here.
Sliders and other brake parts needing lube need Brake Grease. Many other lubes will ruin then now or soon. Slider "O-rings" are "return springs" for outer pad. Normally Outers have just enough clearance to not drag them. IOW most times Won't slide w/ you pushing/pulling easy but will w/ brake pressure as needed. Front inners are about same because main piston seal is "return springs" for it. Rear piston has springs and seal as return springs. Big problem is same springs in iffy pistons can force one part out (Back part w/ bearings) and cause big problems. Even cause brake failure or a fire by dragging the pads hard.
Note: iffy wheel bearing(s) can cause pad/caliper issues. Front bearing are not Preloaded but too loose then too much play in a wheel and rotor forcing too much clearance. See my Cave, Front Bearings Rear is same but "non adjustable." If "loose" then bearing are iffy/bad or axle have problems causing loose bearing.
What Pads do you have? Because Many sold thru Ebay and other online "stores" claim "Race pads" etc may need high heat to work and never get hot enough driving on the street and won't help you.
Update from the latest test on the rollers. I waited for some adapters to arrive so I could bleed the master cylinder to death (tubes back into the reservoir). Then I bled the pipes followed by all four calipers many, many times until not even a minor bubble could be seen. The foot brakes works great now and even got an emergency use: as some idiot jumped in front of me…..! Sadly, on the rollers the handbrake still did not reach the measure the garage say it should be. They are at 19% now, which is better than previous attempts.
Almost every part of the braking system has been changed in this car. There are no leaks and Booster is working normally. I think I must now look for a new Test Inspector. :\
The handbrake is completely independent in operation from the hydraulic system. I'm glad the hydraulic system is working better for you.
Questions for you concerning the parking brake issue.....
- How much slack in the cables when parking brake is not applied? There should be no slack in the cables; there should be slight tension. - How much clearance between the pads and the rotors when the parking brake is not applied? There should be as little clearance as possible between the rotors and the pads, on both wheels and on both inner and outer pads.
The handbrake is completely independent in operation from the hydraulic system. I'm glad the hydraulic system is working better for you.
Questions for you concerning the parking brake issue.....
- How much slack in the cables when parking brake is not applied? There should be no slack in the cables; there should be slight tension. - How much clearance between the pads and the rotors when the parking brake is not applied? There should be as little clearance as possible between the rotors and the pads, on both wheels and on both inner and outer pads.
Thank you (and everyone for their help so far)
Easy answers here: There is next to no slack in the cable and I can pull the brake up to about 7-8 clicks now. There is little to no clearance. I actually think they are too close, but the wheel does rotate without much effort.
Update from the latest test on the rollers. I waited for some adapters to arrive so I could bleed the master cylinder to death (tubes back into the reservoir). Then I bled the pipes followed by all four calipers many, many times until not even a minor bubble could be seen. The foot brakes works great now and even got an emergency use: as some idiot jumped in front of me…..! Sadly, on the rollers the handbrake still did not reach the measure the garage say it should be. They are at 19% now, which is better than previous attempts.
Almost every part of the braking system has been changed in this car. There are no leaks and Booster is working normally. I think I must now look for a new Test Inspector. :\
Have you checked to make sure your calipers are assembled correctly? That is, that rotating the arm the direction the cable pulls it results in the brake actually applying. This should be done on BOTH calipers. Remanufactured calipers are sometimes assembled with the wrong parts, meaning that the mechanical components are "backwards" and pulling the cable actually releases the brake.
Have you checked to make sure your calipers are assembled correctly? That is, that rotating the arm the direction the cable pulls it results in the brake actually applying. This should be done on BOTH calipers. Remanufactured calipers are sometimes assembled with the wrong parts, meaning that the mechanical components are "backwards" and pulling the cable actually releases the brake.
I tested the calipers before I installed them. They worked correctly and I adjusted them once on the car. I am confident they work as designed.
Is good that hyrdo SB is working now. If you apply P-brakes as above pulling lever under 9 clicks... everything should be "good..."
Is possible the tester is not following push pedal then pull lever then release pedal. In that case, test likely will always fail. Best if you push the pedal while engine running. Booster check valve etc might leak and doesn't boost right after seconds of engine shutdown. Is only good for 1 to 3 pedal pushes normally after shutdown.
Cable tighter maybe to apply but likely won't help holding.
Note: Caliper Levers Should Be Able To Return To Caliper Stops When P-brakes Is Off. Force there by Lever Springs. IOW They should be same condition every time at rest. This is so to get proper pad clearance. Pads Need some clearance or will wear them out fast or a lot worse. Might not see much w/ most calipers but is there.
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE
Step 7... Just resting at the stops during the adjustment very likely is to allow parts to "stretch" a little right after.
Note that only in 87 Fiero FSM corrects most of rear brake sections. Before is copy/past from another FSM from another model w/ images and more errors.
Is a pain but pull seat and trim out to access the lever. Clean it carefully so all rust and dirt is out. Use Brake Cleaner if needed and let the thing dry out. Then lube moving parts/pivots w/ Dry Teflon spray or a bit of Dry Graphite for locks. Spray the main pivot then spray again so main pivot get enough. Watch graphite or can go everywhere. (Make sure you shake the can each time right before you spray. In takes seconds or 1 - 2 minutes to start separating in the can. )
Main pivot takes a lot of load and can bind up steeling driver's effort to apply. Don't lube the cable itself.
If has rusty lever... many would use oil etc... Problem is any wet lube holds crap getting to the lever. A lot of that falls into the area just because of the location. Try removing big rust then use something to convert rust but dry after.
What brake pads for rear? Might be pad formula causing problems. "Race" and "performance" pads often causes problem for street cars because never gets high heat to work right.
WTF! I have just received a reply from an email I sent yesterday to the TUV Nord (MOT Testers/Vehicle Inspectors) regarding my handbrake issue. My handbrake is currently at 19% yet the garage said it won't pass a test. The reply I received was "15% or more for cars older than 91 is a pass". FFS, I could have had the car on the road long ago , before the snow which has just started here grrrrrr
I will of course update this thread once I have a pass certificate.
Originally posted by Darthscooby1001: WTF! I have just received a reply from an email I sent yesterday to the TUV Nord (MOT Testers/Vehicle Inspectors) regarding my handbrake issue. My handbrake is currently at 19% yet the garage said it won't pass a test. The reply I received was "15% or more for cars older than 91 is a pass". FFS, I could have had the car on the road long ago , before the snow which has just started here grrrrrr
That's funny. Be glad is pre 91... If you read above again... US/Canada rules make PB rules Weaker in 96 model year and later. Many vehicle made for those markets can has bare minimum that just passes 20% test. Fiero and other had to pass 30% grade test.
IOW Brand New cars can be legal to sell in them may not pass EU and other markets w/ tougher rules. If US/Canada cars made for export... many have a lot of mod at the factory so better brakes won't be only thing. Body and Electrical are often different in several ways too to fit EU Tag and Lights etc.
I guess somewhere is a chart or math for comparing % grade to a roller test % but can't find one right now. It would be interest to know.
quote
Originally posted by Gall757: 175 Lbs. foot pressure on the pedal is a LOT!
Maybe for some but is only really a "Standard" for adjust PB often after other brake work is done. Is also why you do SB 3x then PB 3x so can "bed in" new cables if just installed them. Ignoring rear brake issues is this system is "famous" for now... You want to know that rear calipers self adjust completely before you pull the lever. That is harder w/o driving during a job.
You be surprise how much force you and many others easy push down that pedal in a "Panic Stop." Many can generate more then 175 lb just w/ one foot.
For many using PB on Fiero and some others using same directions should apply w/ engine running to get max boost from the Booster for you to have little effort. Vacuum Booster can have above issues but Hydro and Electric PB can have issues after Engine shutdown too. Hydro PB is run by PS oil pump and maybe a small hidden accumulator.
Other cars simply don't need to push the pedal like Rotor/drum rears. Rotor/Drum setups are Completely separate systems. All Disk for SB w/ a inner drum for PB. (Larger vehicle have a PB somewhere else. Often at Trans end of the Drive Shaft.) Yet Other you make problems for PB even try to push the pedal while you apply PB.
Now I am angry! Despite informing the TÜV (MOT) Inspector of the correct procedure for testing a Fiero’s E-brake, he would not listen and insisted on doing a rolling stop with a computer pad sitting in the car! Again, I explained that the handbrake or E-Brake is not designed to stop the car whilst moving but he didn’t care. Week 9 and still no certificate and no idea what to do now
