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HANDBRAKE NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR TEST by Darthscooby1001
Started on: 11-22-2019 12:08 PM
Replies: 24 (470 views)
Last post by: theogre on 12-04-2019 11:43 AM
Darthscooby1001
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Report this Post11-22-2019 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darthscooby1001Click Here to Email Darthscooby1001Send a Private Message to Darthscooby1001Reply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Apologies for the new topic on an old subject, but I am having a serious problem with my 87 Fiero GT’s handbrake that I am hoping someone may be able to help with and I don’t see any other specific topic here. My car had its biennial inspection last month and was only at fault on the handbrake. I needed new callipers as the levers were sticking, so I replaced them straight away. I took the opportunity to replace all 4 discs and pads but not the handbrake cables, as I previously replaced the back (left and right) cables in 2017 and the front cable earlier this year. Having read up on everything handbrake related I could find, I carried out adjustments and fine-tuned the brakes/handbrake the best I could, but still no joy. It should be noted with the handbrake applied, I am unable to move the car an inch, but the Test Centre can move the wheels on their modern roller machine.

Having given up, I reluctantly sent my car to the garage for the mechanics to repair, something I swore I would never do again. Of course, the first thing the garage wanted was 3 new cables…. I just went ahead and ordered them and passed them to the garage. A week later, expecting the car to be finished with a new MOT Test Certificate (TÜV for Germany), the only thing they seem to have done is fitted the 3 new cables then given up themselves! Oh and of course produced a bill for €130 for that privilege.

So, I have an excellent car that I am unable to drive with all new brakes, all working but no Test Certificate until I find a way for the 80s technology handbrake to better lock.

I am open to suggestions please!

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Patrick
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Report this Post11-22-2019 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Have a look at Parking & Rear Brakes in The Ogre's Fiero Cave.
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PK
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Report this Post11-22-2019 01:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PKSend a Private Message to PKReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hello there,

Do you know what the minimum efficiency rating is in Germany?

The efficiency calculation will involve the weight of the ve-hickle. Worth checking they are using the correct weight.

We have to pass a similar handbrake test in the UK and I have to be meticulous with brakes and cables to pass.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post11-22-2019 01:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's just a parking brake. They hardly ever work well. I've never seen one on a Fiero that was more than mildly effective. I have no idea what the state inspectors expect to see.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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PK
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Report this Post11-22-2019 02:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PKSend a Private Message to PKReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here they expect to see a min of 16% (from memory) efficiency...else your handbrake does not meet the minimum standard...and your car is deemed unroadworthy.

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post11-22-2019 02:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by PK:

Here they expect to see a min of 16% (from memory) efficiency...else your handbrake does not meet the minimum standard...and your car is deemed unroadworthy.


Isn't it great to have to ask permission of government in order to drive your own classic car? I guess that they believe that its not your property but theirs.. Here in my state of NJ any any automobile 25 years or older is completely exempt from state inspection. Glad that I don't live overseas.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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theogre
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Report this Post11-22-2019 02:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Vehicles made for U.S. and Canada markets are never make to be an "Emergency" brake, Not even for the them.
Federal Test Standards, FMVSS/CMVSS 571.105 and 571.135, only test for Holding a Parked car Up and Down given % Grade of Incline for 5 minutes. 105 is 30% grade covers all before around 1996 models. 135 is 20% after 1995.

That should give you a better test beyond can't move brake on while parked.

You might have a iffy lever causing hard to apply the Parking brakes...
Rust etc in pivots will eat user effort to pull on the lever.
GM "spec" is pull lever 9 clicks Max but never say min/max Force needed. If you pull more clicks then angle is likely "wrong" for you hand and arm and can't generate enough force.
That "spec" is from Fiero FSM Brake section. I've read entire brake section in several FSM and never find Lever Force.
FMVSS 105 is 90 lb Max for hand operated but many Users can't manage that much force w/ one hand.

Note that above Fed standards and tests are after other tests for brakes including the brakes are "Broken In" during the process. So... If you test the Parking Brake function with new pads/rotors/both and don't "Break in" those parts then can fail for this reason. In normal driving can take a weak or more to fully bed the pads to the rotors.

Look up MOT/TÜV force needed and put a scale on canter of handle then pull the scale then test. You want it to work w/ less then max allowed.

Plus just how you replace rear calipers can matter...
Rebuilt by you, shop, or even a "factory" somewhere often have problems. Many shops and "factories" often reused old piston or "Rebuild" them was never design to rebuilt. Only Some use New Pistons.

Pads can matter to. Harder pads can take longer to bed. "Race" pads often need higher heat to work right even for normal driving.

My guess the Current MOT/TÜV test won't many pass older cars make in/for the EU markets either. I know that UK MOT has "Updated" rules there to fail more cars earlier this year.
IOW Is design to fail them so you force to spend more to fix or simply junk them.

------------------
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[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 11-22-2019).]

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cvxjet
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Report this Post11-22-2019 03:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would suggest making sure your pads are well seated/bedded, then you can jack the back of the car up- make sure the rear wheels turn easily and then adjust the parking brake until it just starts to have an effect on the wheels rotation. If you have only a short distance to drive the car to go to the inspection, this may work well ....Later, after you have passed, back off the adjustment so your brakes are not dragging at all.

And Dennis, I get your argument, but here in CA we don't have any vehicle safety inspections- I can tell you that 20% of the cars on the road aren't safe (Probably 10% are not even worthy of being scrap metal!)...There is a balance- rarely met by any govt!
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Report this Post11-22-2019 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

...you can jack the back of the car up- make sure the rear wheels turn easily and then adjust the parking brake until it just starts to have an effect on the wheels rotation. If you have only a short distance to drive the car to go to the inspection, this may work well ....Later, after you have passed, back off the adjustment so your brakes are not dragging at all.


That's exactly what I did to get my '88 Formula to pass the BC provincial inspection when I brought it up from Washington State. The parking brake had to hold on a steep hill, and it (finally) did after I adjusted the parking brake to be dragging.
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Report this Post11-22-2019 08:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SpoonSend a Private Message to SpoonReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know this is still a hydraulic approach rather than a cable setup but a little imagination and some common tools and no one would know. Yes hydraulic systems can leak down but you only have to pass a park brake test which takes (x) minutes or less.

https://www.amazon.com/Hydr...ativeASIN=B07MYZWVY2

Plan (B) More like modern vehicles.
https://www.amazon.com/-Sto...ativeASIN=B00QL3JKKQ

Spoon

------------------
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Report this Post11-23-2019 01:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Spoon:
I know this is still a hydraulic approach rather than a cable setup but a little imagination and some common tools and no one would know. Yes hydraulic systems can leak down but you only have to pass a park brake test which takes (x) minutes or less.

amazon.com/Hydr...ativeASIN=B07MYZWVY2

Plan (B) More like modern vehicles.
amazon.com/-Sto...ativeASIN=B00QL3JKKQ
Very likely will Not pass inspection in most of EU with BS like above or "line locks" either.

MOT/TÜV rules are more strict then most U.S. States that even have "Safety Inspection." Quoted because is a joke to think they actually work except maybe on cars w/ Major problems for most of the U.S.

Some states have 2 to 5 years between inspections.
NY Shops that "certified" to do NYS Inspections may take wheel or two off a car during inspection but never actually test the service or parking brakes.
Other states have a "brake dino" you drive on then stop to test the service brakes but not the parking brake. The test is such a low speed test nearly all will pass.
If exterior lights simply turn on, you pass in most states. Yet Cops in same states can stop you w/ bad lights. Bad doesn't = Dead/Blown bulbs.

If German Inspection is about same a UK MOT then you must have all factory parts working when the Inspector test each of them. Even HL must have correct light pattern on the test machine or instant fail because many idiots put illegal HID or LED in Halogen HL shells. In many places the Owner/Driver Does Not stay in the car during testing.

If you try to cheat by adjusting so pads drag... may fail for the service brake /w problems. Worse, Driving w/ pads dragging can cause brake fade, brake failure or even a fire getting to/from the inspection or driving anywhere else.
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Darthscooby1001
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Report this Post11-23-2019 01:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darthscooby1001Click Here to Email Darthscooby1001Send a Private Message to Darthscooby1001Reply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thank you Gents for your support. It would be lengthy to try and reply individually, so please forgive me if I only respond to certain people on this thread. I will have either noted your comment for further investigation or have previously carried out the advice you have given, which again I am very grateful for. I know how this will end…. When I got get the handbrake to pass the test, I will have become the darn expert of Fiero brakes!!! grrrrrr

I would like to state that I have a second Fiero, which I would like to renovate properly and return it to service, but in the meantime, I robbed the discs and pads from it. They were much better than mine, so I would say they are broken and bedded in.

The front callipers were purchased either new or reconditioned in 2017. The rear callipers were reconditioned and bought in October. The piston and lever arm move quite freely with no friction and with new springs easily return to their start point. I have read all I can, especially in the Ogre’s Cave and have adjusted the tension to about 5 clicks max without dragging.

All brakes have been bled and the fluid changed. I believe they now work exactly as intended. It does not pass the test on the rollers…..

I will research what the ‘minimum efficiency rating’ in Germany for a car older than 96 should be, but if there are any technical details apart from the 30* decline for 5 minutes test, I would appreciate them. Thank you.

[This message has been edited by Darthscooby1001 (edited 11-23-2019).]

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post11-23-2019 09:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You should support the rear of the car, remove the rear wheels and actuate the brake levers individually with a wrench, or something appropriate and note the amount of travel of each lever. I recall having a caliper that worked under normal braking, but apparently had some sort of internal failure that rendered the lever ineffective although it appeared to move fine.

I also learned the hard way on a Fiero not to ignore cleaning and lubricating the caliper slides, after realizing from severe uneven pad wear that the caliper slides were sticking. If that is happening, you'll have a firm emergency brake lever feel, but poor emergency brake hold, because only the caliper piston side pad will be moving freely to apply force. On one side I had a pad worn into a ramp/wedge shape and on the other one pad showed considerable wear while the other had near new thickness.

I also found that remanufactured calipers were hit, or miss.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-23-2019).]

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PK
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Report this Post11-24-2019 12:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PKSend a Private Message to PKReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Best of luck in getting this sorted.

I just had a quick peruse of the MOT test rules for hand brake in England. It is minimum 16% efficiency (for Fiero).

I didn't find much else that might be helpful to your plight..... Though did find out that cars made in 1914 or earlier are exempt from handbrake test!!! Which is odd as cars from 1968 and older are exempt from MOT testing.

Can you find someone more sympathetic to the cars age/design to conduct the test? I did note our MOT test allows some wriggle room in terms of interpretation with text such as:

"A gradient tester can be used on vehicles that are not suitable for a parking brake test with the primary brake tester or decelerometer."

So, if deemed "not suitable" for primary brake tester or primary brake tester is out of service..there are other options but completely at discretion of tester.

Will be very interested to know how you solve this, which I'm sure you will. I will report back with my efficiency readings when next MOT test is done.


I personally welcome an MOT test as it is really a minimum test of roadworthiness. There are a lot of things that they do not check and other things that they are only allowed to advise on.

My work ve-hickle recently had a small water leak, invisible from the outside but by removing the entirety of the interior in the back of the car I found a substantial rusted out section around a rear seatbelt anchor point. A massive safety defect but completely invisible and undetectable on an MOT test which allows them to check that the inertia reel functions but not remove panels to inspect. So while valuable it is a bare minimum which some rely on as a complete health check..... Which it most definitely is not.
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Will
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Report this Post11-25-2019 05:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

You should support the rear of the car, remove the rear wheels and actuate the brake levers individually with a wrench, or something appropriate and note the amount of travel of each lever. I recall having a caliper that worked under normal braking, but apparently had some sort of internal failure that rendered the lever ineffective although it appeared to move fine.

I also learned the hard way on a Fiero not to ignore cleaning and lubricating the caliper slides, after realizing from severe uneven pad wear that the caliper slides were sticking. If that is happening, you'll have a firm emergency brake lever feel, but poor emergency brake hold, because only the caliper piston side pad will be moving freely to apply force. On one side I had a pad worn into a ramp/wedge shape and on the other one pad showed considerable wear while the other had near new thickness.

I also found that remanufactured calipers were hit, or miss.



If the rebuilder assembled one of the calipers with the wrong handed mechanism inside the piston, that parking brake would not work. It's work a check.

Also, I assume that upgrading the brakes to the 11.25" system done fairly often on US Fieros would be a bureaucratic nightmare im Duetschland.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-25-2019).]

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Will
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Report this Post11-25-2019 05:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Will

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quote
Originally posted by Darthscooby1001:

I will research what the ‘minimum efficiency rating’ in Germany for a car older than 96 should be, but if there are any technical details apart from the 30* decline for 5 minutes test, I would appreciate them. Thank you.



FYI, a 30 degree slope and a 30 percent grade are two VERY different things. A 30% grade is "only" about 16.7 degrees. It's still VERY steep for a car.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-25-2019).]

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Darthscooby1001
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Report this Post11-28-2019 06:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darthscooby1001Click Here to Email Darthscooby1001Send a Private Message to Darthscooby1001Reply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks again guys for your continuing help and advice. A new development has occurred which might explain all the problems I have been having: My pedal is now going easily to the floor! it must be pumped up again to work, then pressing gently, it will sink back down again. I believe this to be the Master Cylinder that has given up, i.e. leaking air into the system, so I have ordered a replacement. The testing garage did say the normal brakes, although passing inspection were not great, so I believe the Master Cylinder has been slowly leaking for some time and I have eventually dislodged it whilst bleeding multiple times. I will update you all when the new one has been fitted. Yes I know about bench bleeding etc.
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theogre
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Report this Post11-28-2019 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darthscooby1001:
Thanks again guys for your continuing help and advice. A new development has occurred which might explain all the problems I have been having: My pedal is now going easily to the floor! it must be pumped up again to work, then pressing gently, it will sink back down again. I believe this to be the Master Cylinder that has given up, i.e. leaking air into the system, so I have ordered a replacement. The testing garage did say the normal brakes, although passing inspection were not great, so I believe the Master Cylinder has been slowly leaking for some time and I have eventually dislodged it whilst bleeding multiple times. I will update you all when the new one has been fitted. Yes I know about bench bleeding etc.
Likely because "Pedal Bleeding" can destroy a MC w/ dirt/corrosion problems.
See my Cave, Brake Service and Bleeding MC notes

Replacing a iffy/dead MC may help the parking brake Because you push the pedal down then pull the lever while doing that.
From 87 Owner Manual... (Get full copy at http://www.fieronews.net/fusion/downloads.php )
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE

If you or "MOT" inspector fails to use above direction or have hydraulic problems then likely P-brake will fail to hold at any time not just failed on the machine.
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Report this Post12-02-2019 08:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darthscooby1001:

I believe this to be the Master Cylinder that has given up, i.e. leaking air into the system, so I have ordered a replacement.


It won't let air into the system because the fluid is under positive pressure, but it can leak around the pressure seal.

If fluid level in the reservoir stays constant, you don't have a leak to the outside world.
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Report this Post12-02-2019 10:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Depending on exactly what MC Seal(s) are bad...
Most times is Secondary seal(s) bad and leak fluid internally so can't make hydro pressure. No air in the MC.
Primary main seal could do same.
Iffy Primary rear seal can leak fluid "on the floor," let air in, or both. Quick Take-up Section sees little pressure and suck air in thru bad rear seal.

QT valve and seal can "leak" fluid like first 2 but not air. If QT valve is blocked up, Primary Rear can try to suck air because is just a basic "o-ring" and won't handle much pressure or vacuum. (Other piston seals are "Cup" type and must handle full working pressure.)

Can "break" a tank or wreck tank seal(s) but won't cause low/floored pedal unless tank goes dry. Small cracks can hold fluid w/ little or no fluid "on the floor." might only drip very slowly and even then be temperature related.

F'd lines, fittings or combi valve should leak fluid "on the floor" too.
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Darthscooby1001
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Report this Post12-02-2019 11:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darthscooby1001Click Here to Email Darthscooby1001Send a Private Message to Darthscooby1001Reply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok, I changed the master cylinder today. After bench bleeding it, I bled the pipes after putting it on, then all 4 calipers. I won't say they are wonderful, but the brakes are working as good as they previously did.

Back to the handbrake. I have readjusted everything again and was quite confident, as I could not turn the rear wheels at all. however, the handbrake handle now comes up past 11 clicks and runs out of clicks! The equaliser is adjusted as tight as it can be, but there is still slack in the L & R cables. The levers on the calipers are in the right place and the hand brake does feel better. However, I test drove the car up and down the street and only once did the car stall pulling away with the handbrake on. Each time after, it just pulled away regardless. I doubt it will hold the car on the rollers, so I now need to look for other solutions as the cables appear to be too long
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Report this Post12-02-2019 12:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Follow P-brake "adjustment" in cave.
This and other methods are not a good adjustment but give you an idea what is wrong because Too much pad clearance is never going to have P-brake working. Main pedal is often "low" trying to stop normally too.
Basically Caliper levers will tighten on the shim w/ lever moving only a little. Little I mean next to nothing. A bit more w/o the shim. And that's w/o pushing the pedal.
Why? "Rebuild" calipers are often bad and pistons won't self adjust and the "adjustment" might help but soon have same problems again or worse.

Is raining so can't take pictures etc of p-brake on my car.

Might be wrong cables for each wheel, main cable or all of them.
Where did you buy them? brand and PN for them?

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 12-02-2019).]

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Darthscooby1001
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Report this Post12-04-2019 08:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darthscooby1001Click Here to Email Darthscooby1001Send a Private Message to Darthscooby1001Reply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks again guys.

Ok, after adding an extra block to the end of each brake cable at the calipers, I was able to shorten the length and could adjust tension once more at the equalizer. Handbrake now pulls up to about 8 clicks. The Wagner cables I bought from Rockautos were not longer, but the stopper on the ends of the cables that are more towards the end, adding a total of approx. 4 cm. Too much for the equalizer to adjust. But I know now. Hope that makes sense?

Anyway, I carried out all the adjustments from the cave and was confident I had it right... Yeah, the handbrake failed miserably on the rollers. It reached level one and the guy said it should reach level 3-4 to work. What was worse even, the normal foot brake was no better and didn’t even slow the car down on the rollers! I am beginning to think that perhaps the handbrake was never the problem and there is a braking problem instead. The pedal does not sink to the floor like it did prior to changing the master cylinder, but it does travel halfway down before beginning to slow the car! I think first I am going to inspect all of the lines and hoses then start and bleed everything once again.

I’ll be back after that.
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Report this Post12-04-2019 09:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Reply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm not a brake expert but after owning 6 Fieros over the past 25 years I've had my share of brake issues.
Have you replaced the flex lines at each caliper?
Are the rotors running true?
Caliper slides working properly and lubed?
Is the proportioning valve working properly?
Sounds like the master cylinder was replaced and bench bleed as were the calipers.
Not much left to check.
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Report this Post12-04-2019 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Low and/or soft pedal is often a big sign still have air in the system, Too much pad clearance, or both.
Hoses won't cause this but may need them anyway.
The "proportion" valve part of the combi valve likely isn't a problem here.

Sliders and other brake parts needing lube need Brake Grease. Many other lubes will ruin then now or soon.
Slider "O-rings" are "return springs" for outer pad. Normally Outers have just enough clearance to not drag them. IOW most times Won't slide w/ you pushing/pulling easy but will w/ brake pressure as needed.
Front inners are about same because main piston seal is "return springs" for it.
Rear piston has springs and seal as return springs. Big problem is same springs in iffy pistons can force one part out (Back part w/ bearings) and cause big problems. Even cause brake failure or a fire by dragging the pads hard.

Note: iffy wheel bearing(s) can cause pad/caliper issues.
Front bearing are not Preloaded but too loose then too much play in a wheel and rotor forcing too much clearance. See my Cave, Front Bearings
Rear is same but "non adjustable." If "loose" then bearing are iffy/bad or axle have problems causing loose bearing.

When you buy New caliper hoses, should be newer SAE J1401 "rubber." DOT hose w/ Non SAE rubber will work but not as good. Don't buy SS hoses. See http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/129208.html

What Pads do you have?
Because Many sold thru Ebay and other online "stores" claim "Race pads" etc may need high heat to work and never get hot enough driving on the street and won't help you.
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