So recently purchased a new 88gt that has been 'restored'. everything on it looks really good, and i've never owned a fiero that started and ran so well. but, it's not without it's issues.
here's the next one i want to deal with. i notice this most at highway speeds, let's say above 80km/h, but it's present below that speed too. when i floor it, the car pulls to the left, and when i let off the gas it jerks back to the right.
here's what i've 'tested' so far -visual inspection of suspension/steering. everything appears ok, but i did not pull the wheels off, or get in too deep. just a quick inspection to make sure nothing was dangling -per a suggestion i read online, i tried revving and letting off the throttle while the car was in neutral (still coasting at speed on the highway). there was zero pull. -with the car parked, i revved the motor while watching for any movement. it didn't budge at all, looks like mounts are solid -the car seems to drift slightly to the right, but certainly no more than other fieros i've had before. -there is a little play in the steering, but again, i think a pretty typical amount for the car. I remember thinking my 85gt and 86se were 'two hand steering only' above 100km/h.
i think there's a couple things going on here. one, i think i've gotten used to modern vehicles over the past 15yrs since i last daily drove a fiero, but there's more to it than that. I don't remember flooring it ever feeling like this, and letting off the gas can actually be a pretty scary experience right now. My thought is possibly an alignment issue, and i suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to have one done anyway, since the car is new to me. But is there something else i should check first?
also, i'm curious how you all find your fiero compares to a more modern vehicle. The last time i drove a fiero, i think the newest vehicle i had driven was a 96 cavalier. my memory was always that the fiero felt really solid, and completely stable up until around 100-110km/h. Above that, the vibration in the steering wheel kinda made my hands numb after a few minutes. Right now, i'm not really enjoying the driving experience. My other vehicle is a 2014 mazda6 gt. the fiero still seems ok at slower speeds, but on the highway it's a bit exhausting. I feel like if i stop paying attention i'm going to end up in a ditch. I just really used to love these cars. And now i've got an 88 in really clean shape, that runs beautifully, and yet, is less fun to drive than my practical car. i really want to get this sorted out so i can enjoy it again!
I second what fieroguru stated. An alignment check certainly wouldn't hurt. Any idea how old the shocks, struts and tires are? My Formula (and other peoples Fieros) is very stable at well over 100 MPH.
I had this exact problem......I have an 85 SE V6 converted to 88 rear suspension- I was trying to see what could be wrong- inspected everything...Finally noticed that one of the struts had a little greasy spot on it like it was leaking.....Took it off (KYB GR2 Gas Strut) and compressed it- did not return up....All the gas + oil had drained out of it.
Loosing the gas pressure is like A) Changing the spring rate and B) makes the shock not work properly.
Check your struts- I can't remember which one it was vs the pull right/left under accel/decel......
The most common cause of this behavior on an 88 is the long lateral link bolt being loose.
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Originally posted by olejoedad:
I second what fieroguru stated. An alignment check certainly wouldn't hurt. Any idea how old the shocks, struts and tires are? My Formula (and other peoples Fieros) is very stable at well over 100 MPH.
thanks guys, i'll look into this
tires are practically brand new (195/65R15 front, 215/60R15 rear if that matters) shocks and struts would be a complete guess, they don't look factory(have a white case) and seem to pass the 'bounce test' (if i push down at a corner, it settles back to normal height in one bounce). the car appears to have less than 5000kms since it was restored, but i didn't buy it from the person who did the restoration, so i'm not sure how many new parts were put on vs used parts.
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Originally posted by cvxjet:
I had this exact problem......I have an 85 SE V6 converted to 88 rear suspension- I was trying to see what could be wrong- inspected everything...Finally noticed that one of the struts had a little greasy spot on it like it was leaking.....Took it off (KYB GR2 Gas Strut) and compressed it- did not return up....All the gas + oil had drained out of it.
Loosing the gas pressure is like A) Changing the spring rate and B) makes the shock not work properly.
Check your struts- I can't remember which one it was vs the pull right/left under accel/decel......
i guess these will be something i need to check when i'm looking at the lateral link bolt. thank you
i put the car up on jacks and got the wheels out of the way to have a look, and i don't really know what i'm looking for. Everything looks ok, nothing 'wobbles' or has any play in it that i can tell. I snapped a bunch of pics, that may be totally useless, but I don't know. Does anything look out of place? Can somebody direct me towards the parts i need to specifically check and how to check them?
I am willing to bet it is a leaky strut; Take them off and test them both- You can rent/borrow a spring compressor (to remove the springs from the struts) at PartsSource.......The two big bolts that hold the strut to the spindle are 15/16" and, when re-installing them, should be torqued to 140 Lb/Ft. Mark the position of the bolts/washers with a scribe so you can align them (Camber) when re-installing. (By the way, the struts/springs unbolt and come off the car as a unit, (Right & left)
Push each one (Without the spring) down and then see how it returns- should come back up to full extension relatively quickly- if it stays down, there is your problem...
I don't see anything particularly wrong in your pics- old and dirty, but no glaring problems...
[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 09-26-2019).]
when you have "torque steer" etc you must look at the whole car very carefully. Because many things including problems on the other axle can "fake" a bogus torque/bump steering problems.
Pictures of suspension often doesn't help much because many problems are not easy to see even looking directly. Example: Many bushing w/ internal sheaves, external shells or both can have hidden problems. Outer shells can rust out in a hard to see area. Inner sheaves or bushing themselves can have problems too. 20+ year old Rubber can get soft or bad but Worse if you have Polly in the Control Arms and related because that can wear out the centers in a few years or faster and w/o making noise.
IOW May need to use mirrors, bore scope, etc. to look at some parts or areas of a given part but may not help even w/ that. I had 1 outer shell rotten and can't see the bad spot until LCA was remove from the car. Between LCA shape and car's frame was near impossible to see the rust spot in the car. That one bad spot allow the LCA to move under braking loads and try to steer the car w/o being obvious thru steering wheel etc.
Note that if the car has been lowered... Problems w/ shocks struts and ball joints are very common and many not be easy to see. "Standard" Bounce tests for shocks/struts are often useless and more so w/ good bushings because will act as shocks/struts for the amount you generate trying to do this "test."
Iffy brakes can fake suspension problems too.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I think the bolt that comes loose on 88's is the lowest one on the bottom of the spindle on each side. But I am not an 88 guy but all Fiero's use the same strut assembly and a common problem is the strut bolts do not get torqued properly when the struts get replaced.They are supposed to be torqued at 165Lbs, but most shops just crank them on with wrenches. I was at a pick and pull today to grab a couple of struts and I was armed with a breaker bar, 4' piece of pipe and a propane torch. When I looked at the bolts they were not factory strut bolts and they came loose with no effort at all, didn't even use the breaker bar. Get a torque wrench and check all the bolts, most people that work on these cars have no idea what they are doing.
------------------ 86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo rear SLA suspension QA1 coilovers on tube arms
I am willing to bet it is a leaky strut; Take them off and test them both- You can rent/borrow a spring compressor (to remove the springs from the struts) at PartsSource.......The two big bolts that hold the strut to the spindle are 15/16" and, when re-installing them, should be torqued to 140 Lb/Ft. Mark the position of the bolts/washers with a scribe so you can align them (Camber) when re-installing. (By the way, the struts/springs unbolt and come off the car as a unit, (Right & left)
Push each one (Without the spring) down and then see how it returns- should come back up to full extension relatively quickly- if it stays down, there is your problem...
I don't see anything particularly wrong in your pics- old and dirty, but no glaring problems...
at this time, i'm not wanting to remove the strut assemblies unless i see a good reason to. I've done that before and very carefully marked everything, and the car was nearly undriveable when i put it back together(i did also lower it at the time, so that must have contributing to the alignment issue) so i'm going to avoid doing that for now. If i remove them, then i will 100% need to get an alignment done, imo.
funny how different areas impact vehicles, i thought the underside looked amazingly clean, haha
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Originally posted by theogre:
when you have "torque steer" etc you must look at the whole car very carefully. Because many things including problems on the other axle can "fake" a bogus torque/bump steering problems.
Pictures of suspension often doesn't help much because many problems are not easy to see even looking directly. Example: Many bushing w/ internal sheaves, external shells or both can have hidden problems. Outer shells can rust out in a hard to see area. Inner sheaves or bushing themselves can have problems too. 20+ year old Rubber can get soft or bad but Worse if you have Polly in the Control Arms and related because that can wear out the centers in a few years or faster and w/o making noise.
IOW May need to use mirrors, bore scope, etc. to look at some parts or areas of a given part but may not help even w/ that. I had 1 outer shell rotten and can't see the bad spot until LCA was remove from the car. Between LCA shape and car's frame was near impossible to see the rust spot in the car. That one bad spot allow the LCA to move under braking loads and try to steer the car w/o being obvious thru steering wheel etc.
Note that if the car has been lowered... Problems w/ shocks struts and ball joints are very common and many not be easy to see. "Standard" Bounce tests for shocks/struts are often useless and more so w/ good bushings because will act as shocks/struts for the amount you generate trying to do this "test."
Iffy brakes can fake suspension problems too.
i believe everything to be 'stock', although clearly some parts have been replaced, i don't think anything has been done to lower the vehicle. I wasn't too hopeful with the pics, but figured I needed a place to start. nothing is 'loose' in that i can't wiggle anything, turn anything, or notice any play in anything. I don't really have experience with diagnosing anything with the suspension though. My experience is basically just replacing springs with lowering springs on an 85. It worked before i started, it needed an alignment after i finished.
i'm curious about the comment regarding brakes. When i noticed the pulling, i did try stomping hard on the brakes to see if the car pulled during braking as well, and it didn't seem to. I'm only noticing the issue when the vehicle is in drive and i either accelerate hard, or let off the gas while accelerating hard. Braking hard, or light acceleration seems to be fine. i figured this meant it probably was not the brakes
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Originally posted by wftb:
I think the bolt that comes loose on 88's is the lowest one on the bottom of the spindle on each side. But I am not an 88 guy but all Fiero's use the same strut assembly and a common problem is the strut bolts do not get torqued properly when the struts get replaced.They are supposed to be torqued at 165Lbs, but most shops just crank them on with wrenches. I was at a pick and pull today to grab a couple of struts and I was armed with a breaker bar, 4' piece of pipe and a propane torch. When I looked at the bolts they were not factory strut bolts and they came loose with no effort at all, didn't even use the breaker bar. Get a torque wrench and check all the bolts, most people that work on these cars have no idea what they are doing.
this one was 'restored' by an old retired guy with a passion for fieros. apparently it's his hobby, he rebuilds one or two a year. the stuff that's easy to see, looks pretty good. everything looks like the guy is taking pride in his work. i don't want to read too much into it, but i am be cautious with how much i mess with because honestly i'm worried about making it worse. I am certainly enjoying working on a vehicle again, and this one is in FAR cleaner shape than any other fiero i've owned. Most of them couldn't be worked on in a day, because you needed to spray penetrating oil on the bolts at least a day in advance or you were more likely to snap the bolt than remove it.
that being said, i have sprayed penetrating oil on all the suspension bolts in anticipation for the weekend.
You checked the lateral link bolt ? (sits right under each brake caliiper). Maybe it is seized but not torqued enough? Perhaps try loosening it and then re-torquing it? From what you describe, I would guess that one or both of those bolts is loose- very common on 88's.
Is that grease coming out of your axle boot on the passenger side? May want to see if it is split. Car looks pretty clean underneath- Doesn't look like it was wrecked by being driven in salt like so many cars here in Canada ....
You checked the lateral link bolt ? (sits right under each brake caliiper). Maybe it is seized but not torqued enough? Perhaps try loosening it and then re-torquing it? From what you describe, I would guess that one or both of those bolts is loose- very common on 88's.
Is that grease coming out of your axle boot on the passenger side? May want to see if it is split. Car looks pretty clean underneath- Doesn't look like it was wrecked by being driven in salt like so many cars here in Canada ....
thank you for being so specific. I double checked, and i was able to turn that bolt about 3/4 of a full rotation on one side, couldn't budge it with any reasonable amount of force on the other side, so there was definitely a difference in torque between the two.
i had a closer look at the axle boot(i also noticed the 'grease') but i don't see any splits, and it looks pretty dried and caked on. not sure if that makes any difference. i'm going to wipe it away, and then at least i'll know if it comes back
I guess i'll put the wheels back on and see if this made any noticeable difference.
Tony, I'll most likely being getting an alignment done in the spring either way. over the winter i want to spend some time figuring out if there are any other suspension upgrades i want to do first though. for all intents and purposes, the car is put away for the year. I have insurance on it pretty much just so i can drive it to wherever i end up storing it if i can find someplace other than my single car garage. it's gonna be a cold winter if i have to park my daily driver outside...
EDIT: ok, i might be a little slow, but i'm starting to figure out what you've all been telling me... so i tightened those bolts and there was a noticeable improvement. i'm not convinced it's completely solved, but where it used to feel like the front end of the car moved 6inches, it now feels like it's moving half an inch. Does anybody know what the correct torque is for those bolts? i found this: //www.fiero.nl/forum/A...130314-2-087857.html but it seems to be missing the info i need
[This message has been edited by fierce_gt (edited 09-27-2019).]
I may have a way you can test the struts without removing them; Undo the nut at the top of the strut (With the car on the ground) and then push the strut shaft down to almost flush with the mounting....then see if they both return up (This will only work with gas-charged struts) The one that is bad will not return as fast- or not at all.......Not as accurate but may show the problem...
If you lowered the car then expect alignment problems and damage to rest of suspension at minimum. Factory alignment specs are invalid for nearly all lowered vehicles but most will try to use them anyway. Even if the alignment works to save the tires, cut springs and other crap screws up the suspension often in big ways. Strut and other "rubber" bumpers are only there as a rare use backup for preventing slamming unspung suspension into the rest of the car. If you cut them down, eliminate or they simple fail... Blown shocks, struts, and ball joints are only a starting point. I've seen more then enough lowered cars sitting in the middle of the road w/ pigeon toed tires because parts finally failed. Worse when happens on big highways because that can have fatal results to people in the dead car or anyone in the often huge traffic backup they cause.
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Originally posted by cvxjet: I may have a way you can test the struts without removing them; Undo the nut at the top of the strut (With the car on the ground) and then push the strut shaft down to almost flush with the mounting....then see if they both return up (This will only work with gas-charged struts) The one that is bad will not return as fast- or not at all.......Not as accurate but may show the problem...
Do Not do this. You will have the spring move sideways the millisecond after the rod clears the hole and never get the rod thru the top hat without big headaches.
Ogre- That is why I said down to "Almost flush with the mounting" That way it stays aligned/in the hole........My one bad strut gave me exactly the symptoms he is talking about- If I had pushed it down it would not have come back up at all- While the other side had full gas pressure and would return up rapidly...
This is a very distinctive problem, and I found absolutely nothing wrong- until I noticed the wetness on my strut- then pulled them (I have coil-overs, making it very easy to disassemble) and found that one was limp- no gas pressure and very little fluid.
i have no signs of leaking in the struts, and tightening that bolt has nearly completely solved the issue. i still feel the slightest of movement when i let off the accelerator suddenly, but it's very small. I doubt i would have noticed it if i wasn't looking for it now. i mean, that's also a pretty rare scenario that i would go from flooring it to completely off the gas.
I am still a little concerned about having over-torqued that long bolt. I treated it like a lug nut, so i'm sure its over 100ft-lbs. when i get some more time, i think the next step will be to re-torque those correctly, and check the torque on every other bolt i can reach. I feel like that is the most logically next step, considering the car was taken apart and rebuilt by somebody in their garage less than 5000kms ago. Just enough time for all of those bolts to wiggle lose if they weren't torqued just right. Especially after seeing how much of a difference a couple turns of one bolt made. What i'm still feeling could easily be a 1/4 turn of one bolt somewhere. worst case i know everything got re-torqued correctly
Originally posted by cvxjet: Ogre- That is why I said down to "Almost flush with the mounting" That way it stays aligned/in the hole........My one bad strut gave me exactly the symptoms he is talking about- If I had pushed it down it would not have come back up at all- While the other side had full gas pressure and would return up rapidly...
This is a very distinctive problem, and I found absolutely nothing wrong- until I noticed the wetness on my strut- then pulled them (I have coil-overs, making it very easy to disassemble) and found that one was limp- no gas pressure and very little fluid.
You push down or simply falls down when strut has no pressure into the top hat the rod can twist/tilt the hat causing same problems. More so if top hat has problems too. If you really want to this try loosening the big nut 1-3 turns then push down. That way nut and washer will control the rod and top hat. But even Good pressure may not make it return right away but if you bump the car sim to infamous shock/strut test that often doesn't work should return then. Problem is iffy struts may do same so isn't a good test.
But even Good pressure may not make it return right away but if you bump the car sim to infamous shock/strut test that often doesn't work should return then. Problem is iffy struts may do same so isn't a good test.
I consider the bounce test a way of testing for bad shocks but not a way to confirm good shocks
[This message has been edited by fierce_gt (edited 10-02-2019).]
Originally posted by olejoedad: The bounce test doesnt work well on a Fiero....
It doesn't work on any vehicle for 50+ years. Even crappiest OE shock/struts like Fiero and others have including WS6 RPO in them. WS6 and many other "handling packages" are BS Hype for Selling most cars. Many have very little for better handing etc.
Often doesn't even work for dead units unless So dead lost all oil, broken mounts, etc. Even then many vehicles may pass the fake test because of the bushings.
Many Believe and push the "Bounce test" because Monroe had a display in Many Thousands of parts/tire stores w/ a new shock and a "Dead" shock that uses levers to "Show" the difference until as lest the 80's.
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE
From http://www.obnoxiousantique...ising-store-display/ I think Monroe got sued for false ads and people got hurt w/ this thing. You still find it and related "displays" in some store and Ebay etc. Made a Strut Display that works the same in later years.
i dunno, i've pushed down on a fender and watched a car take 2 or 3 'cycles' before leveling off.
i don't think anybody is calling it a definitive test, it's just so easy, it seems like a logical place to start. like, if i think my tire is low, the first thing i do is push the sidewall. it's never going to tell me if i have the correct pressure, but in some cases it tells me i have a flat, or which tire to check first. i don't do it because it's an effective, accurate test. i do it because it takes 1 second and zero tools. it's only a bad test if you misrepresent what it can tell you.
my skepticism that the shocks/struts were my issue was primarily based on the visual inspection. but certainly the 'bounce test' didn't contradict that opinion. if after tightening all bolts, and exhausting the easier options, i still experienced a problem, then i would have no issue with checking out the struts. I just didn't want to mess around with something that would 100% throw off my alignment if i didn't have to. and in this case, that was a smart move, as everything seems to be just fine after tightening up the lateral link bolts.
i need to look into how to tighten up the steering now. i replaced the steering rack on my 86SE over a decade ago, and i remember thinking afterwards that i HAD to do that with my 85gt when i got it running again. It would be nice if i didn't have to replace an entire rack, but there's just enough play to annoy me. It's not bad, but i guess maybe 5-10degrees i can turn the wheel before the tires actually start turning.
it's tough, i've gotten used to modern steering, braking, and suspensions, and the stock fiero is showing its age in these regards. i would say especially the brakes. an upgrade there is definitely in my future
So recently purchased a new 88gt that has been 'restored'. everything on it looks really good, and i've never owned a fiero that started and ran so well. but, it's not without it's issues.
here's the next one i want to deal with. i notice this most at highway speeds, let's say above 80km/h, but it's present below that speed too. when i floor it, the car pulls to the left, and when i let off the gas it jerks back to the right.
I had this *EXACT* issue with a totally different car, but the behavior was totally identical.
Short and sweet, it turned out to be ball joints.
The car in question was a 2008 Jeep Patriot 5-Speed. I started hearing a whining noise coming from the front right wheel hub, and took it to the dealership. Didn't have time to deal with it. Dealership *raped* me for something like $1,500 bucks. When I got it back, they told me they recommended changing out the control arms and ball joints. I said no, didn't want to have them charge me $4,800 for a 10 year old car. Drove it home... and when I'd accelerate, the car would pull to the left, and then the second I let off the gas, it would immediately pull to the right until the car coasted or maintained speed. It became somewhat scary.
I was pissed... so I said F-it, ordered new control arms and ball joints from Rock Auto, bought an impact gun, and took a day off work.
Got it done in an afternoon, and the car drove "amazing." Like a brand new car. I still took it to a tire shop to have an alignment done, but it really didn't need it, and drove fine before and after.
I know Fieros have issues with the tie-rod bars on the rear since (even as an 88) it's somewhat of a front wheel drive suspension adapted to the rear, but I'd seriously consider checking your front ball joints. Even the slightest bit of play can indicate a much more serious problem. I was expecting crazy play, but when I tested the play, I almost felt none.... but after changing out the control arms, it was perfect.
Maybe when the Fiero was "restored," they reused the ball joints, or the ball joints are failing prematurely? It could be any number of things on the front suspension honestly that could cause this... but what you're expressing seems to me much more likely that it's coming from the front. It's very distinct what you feel from the front versus the rear. In my experience, issues with the rear typically result in a squirrelly feeling in the rear, even the back end feeling like it's trying to come around.
I had this *EXACT* issue with a totally different car, but the behavior was totally identical.
Short and sweet, it turned out to be ball joints.
The car in question was a 2008 Jeep Patriot 5-Speed. I started hearing a whining noise coming from the front right wheel hub, and took it to the dealership. Didn't have time to deal with it. Dealership *raped* me for something like $1,500 bucks. When I got it back, they told me they recommended changing out the control arms and ball joints. I said no, didn't want to have them charge me $4,800 for a 10 year old car. Drove it home... and when I'd accelerate, the car would pull to the left, and then the second I let off the gas, it would immediately pull to the right until the car coasted or maintained speed. It became somewhat scary.
I was pissed... so I said F-it, ordered new control arms and ball joints from Rock Auto, bought an impact gun, and took a day off work.
Got it done in an afternoon, and the car drove "amazing." Like a brand new car. I still took it to a tire shop to have an alignment done, but it really didn't need it, and drove fine before and after.
I know Fieros have issues with the tie-rod bars on the rear since (even as an 88) it's somewhat of a front wheel drive suspension adapted to the rear, but I'd seriously consider checking your front ball joints. Even the slightest bit of play can indicate a much more serious problem. I was expecting crazy play, but when I tested the play, I almost felt none.... but after changing out the control arms, it was perfect.
Maybe when the Fiero was "restored," they reused the ball joints, or the ball joints are failing prematurely? It could be any number of things on the front suspension honestly that could cause this... but what you're expressing seems to me much more likely that it's coming from the front. It's very distinct what you feel from the front versus the rear. In my experience, issues with the rear typically result in a squirrelly feeling in the rear, even the back end feeling like it's trying to come around.
appreciate the post, but it turned out to be the lateral link bolt needing to be tightened. since doing that, it's been steady under acceleration.
seems like there's more than one thing that can cause this behaviour.
