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GM High Value LZ9 Swap? by ChuckR
Started on: 07-07-2019 08:26 PM
Replies: 72 (1618 views)
Last post by: ChuckR on 10-10-2019 05:47 PM
ChuckR
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Report this Post07-07-2019 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hello, I have been searching for my first project car for over a year. I have tossed around all kinds of ideas to myself and a few friends. I wanted a car I can track and drive around, be RWD, independent suspension. I think I have finally settled on doing a Fiero. I grew up in the 80's-90's the Fiero always was one of those cars I loved the look of, just not the performance of. This brings me to my title.

I know there is a lot of documentation on the 3800SC swap, and most are going to say to do that. But looking at engine supply, one can get the same power from the LZ9 NA at 240HP/TQ for less money and lower mileage. I did see a build thread on here for doing a LZ9, but they were changing more than I was thinking of. My thoughts are the LZ9 is the great great grandchild of the 2.8L L44. These should have similar footprints and be a closer direct bolt in. I saw that people were reverting the ECU back to ODBI and thus losing the VVT, I am trying to see the benefit in doing this versus using the entire system motor,ECU, transmission and all from the 06-11 donor . My local U pull lot has these things all over sitting and rotting and can get the entire engine, wire harness, ECU, and trans for less than $700. I feel like I am missing something as to why this isn't a normal swap, other than loss of manual trans, which I think this has same bell as stock so that probably isnt it.

So here are my thoughts on the build I want to do. This car will be a driver that has the occasional outing at the track and autocross.

Start with an 88, since I plan to track the car I want the superior suspension
A full engine trans swap from Impala or such 3.9 LZ9
HP Tuners custom ECU program ODBII. ( I have a friend that has the pro edition so he says he can do it I just need to buy the additional license.)
Vue EPAS
Refresh all suspension to Poly.

I am in the searching mode for the 88 now. I do not have it yet. So if you know of one that needs a home in Indiana please let me know. Thank you all for your amazing materials here such a vast store of knowledge you have shared. It is hard to find exactly what you are looking for there is so much to digest.

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Will
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Report this Post07-08-2019 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It just hasn't been as popular. I think it's a great idea. The LZ9 can probably go up to 270 HP with a little work, like a cam swap, but the 3800 will go MUCH higher.

The LZ9 was offered with a stick in the Pontiac G6 GTP in 2006 & 2007.

The front engine mount bracket looks like this:





It bolts to the bottom of the oil pan and attaches to a mount very similar to the stock Fiero engine mount... There should be little to no modification required to get it mounted.

The minivan applications of the LZ9 have a "crossover" style exhaust that has a single outlet to the rear, which will be easier to deal with in a Fiero.

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ChuckR
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Report this Post07-08-2019 09:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I did see that the G6 does offer a single year with this manual, however the transmission i think will be a rare one to find since it is in only 1 model trim for 1 model year. While I would like to have a manual I am ok with having an Auto.

I think I figured out why the build threads I found, only 2 or 3 incomplete info builds, were reverting it back to ODBI. The threads were old and it was when the engines were newer. I do not think HP Tuners had cracked the ECU yet. My eventual goal will be to hit 300 WHP. I know the LZ9 will not be easy to hit that since there is no aftermarket support for this engine, but I think with a decent tune and a centrifugal SC like a HKS can be fit in there with no problem and give that 6-10 PSI boost without stressing the internals to get me to where I want.

I am a noob to more than moderate auto repair experience so I am looking for something to ease into. I do have access to a lathe, mill, etc. So making some parts is not a huge deterrent. I am also looking to keep this a budget friendly build since it is my first ever and if I fail then I will not be out 10k or more. This is what makes the LZ9 so attractive to me. I have no idea if the gearing in the 4L65-E will be good for my wants, I know next to nothing on transmissions. I am certain I will have to have half shafts made to fit, but it would be great if I didn't.

Again I do appreciate any knowledge that is shared. I go to look at a nice 88 GT today after work so I am committing to the Fiero after bouncing everywhere from a C4 Vette to a Miata. None sounded as cool to me as the Classic red headed step child as the Fiero.

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cvxjet
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Report this Post07-08-2019 12:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The 3.9 V6 is a good pick for the Fiero...It is the last iteration of the GM 60* V6....and it is 40-50 lbs lighter than the L44 2.8. If you want more power, you can go with the 3800, but that will ADD weight to the rear of the car. Better choices, in my opinion are the LS4 V8- designed for transverse mounting with the correct bellhousing pattern, or a slightly more exotic choice is the new LV3 4.3L V6.....It is all aluminum so weighs only 300 lbs (70 lbs lighter than the L44) and puts out 285 hp stock....this power is at a low RPM, so it also has the effect of lowering your final drive gear ratio, making that power more effective off the line. It will require a bellhousing adapter.

I have heard a older 4.3 running thru a Fiero 2.8 exhaust muffler and it sounds similar- I consider the L44 thru stock exhaust the best sounding V6...My Father, who was into sports cars back in the 50s and 60s said the only sixes he ever heard that sounded better than my Fiero were the Jag straight six in the E-type and the Maserati sixes.

Although the manual trans that came in the G6 is a relatively rare 6 spd, the only critical spec with manual trans as far as legality/smog is simply "Manual Transmission" so a 4 or 5 spd of any type will work (Legally)......The Automatics are all 50-80 lbs heavier.

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Will
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Report this Post07-08-2019 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:

I did see that the G6 does offer a single year with this manual, however the transmission i think will be a rare one to find since it is in only 1 model trim for 1 model year. While I would like to have a manual I am ok with having an Auto.


As I said above, there were two model years. The '06 transmissions are frequently available NOS. These two model years of production source ALL the F40 six speed manual transmissions the Fiero community uses. The LZ9 will also bolt directly to the original Fiero V6 manual transmission, which will be fine at that power level as long as you're not one of the people who can break anything.

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:

I think I figured out why the build threads I found, only 2 or 3 incomplete info builds, were reverting it back to ODBI. The threads were old and it was when the engines were newer. I do not think HP Tuners had cracked the ECU yet. My eventual goal will be to hit 300 WHP. I know the LZ9 will not be easy to hit that since there is no aftermarket support for this engine, but I think with a decent tune and a centrifugal SC like a HKS can be fit in there with no problem and give that 6-10 PSI boost without stressing the internals to get me to where I want.


https://wot-tech.com/index.php

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:
I am a noob to more than moderate auto repair experience so I am looking for something to ease into. I do have access to a lathe, mill, etc. So making some parts is not a huge deterrent. I am also looking to keep this a budget friendly build since it is my first ever and if I fail then I will not be out 10k or more. This is what makes the LZ9 so attractive to me. I have no idea if the gearing in the 4L65-E will be good for my wants, I know next to nothing on transmissions. I am certain I will have to have half shafts made to fit, but it would be great if I didn't.


A 4L65-E won't work at all. A 4T65E is what you're thinking of.

 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

The 3.9 V6 is a good pick for the Fiero...It is the last iteration of the GM 60* V6....and it is 40-50 lbs lighter than the L44 2.8.


The aluminum heads are about 25lbs lighter than the iron heads, but the 3900 has extra coolant manifolds and extra "stuff" that make it end up close to the same weight as the 2.8.

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ChuckR
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Report this Post07-08-2019 02:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
A 4L65-E won't work at all. A 4T65E is what you're thinking of.


Yes. Thank you for the correction.

 
quote
https://wot-tech.com/index.php


I see they have some items but not really much offered for the 3500/3900 VVT. Since they are only a 2 hour drive from me they might be a great resource to tap and probably have more that is not listed on the website, thank you for the suggestion.

Does anyone have any build threads that would be useful for this swap? If so please share them.

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ChuckR
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Report this Post07-09-2019 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Went to look at an 88 GT today. It is an auto with a bit of rust in the trunk corners but everything else looks good. They did an EGR delete and it runs rough until to temp. Window motors need replaced but New ones come with the car. Has the Ocelot exhaust on it, a rebuilt short block. Owner got car from grandpa and just titled it in his name waiting on it to come in the mail. If this is not a hoax (and I believe him) then I will have my Fiero. I will fix the rust in the trunk. Car was garaged for 8 years but not driven. Injectors, fuel regulator, trans fluid, batter, oil sensor, fan relay all new this year. He said still has old gas in it so cleaning that out will be a need. Brakes a soft. Hoping a bleed and flush will fix. I will check to see if calipers are working correctly at that time. I know I am doing a swap on this car in the future but it is great to have a good running one to enjoy until all planning is completed.

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Will
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Report this Post07-10-2019 02:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Joseph Upson did a 3900 swap, but he did a lot of weird mods (turbo, offset ground stroker crank), so you'll have to filter through a lot of extraneous information to figure out what a stock swap looks like.

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ChuckR
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Report this Post07-11-2019 06:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
The 3.9 V6 is a good pick for the Fiero...It is the last iteration of the GM 60* V6....and it is 40-50 lbs lighter than the L44 2.8. If you want more power, you can go with the 3800, but that will ADD weight to the rear of the car. Better choices, in my opinion are the LS4 V8- designed for transverse mounting with the correct bellhousing pattern, or a slightly more exotic choice is the new LV3 4.3L V6.....It is all aluminum so weighs only 300 lbs (70 lbs lighter than the L44) and puts out 285 hp stock....this power is at a low RPM, so it also has the effect of lowering your final drive gear ratio, making that power more effective off the line. It will require a bellhousing adapter.


The 3.9 being the last iteration of the 6 60 is one of the reasons why I want to do this swap. While I like the idea of the LS4, it is more power than I am looking for, has a higher cost, and is a more involved swap. The 4.3 would be nice but again the cost and difficulties go way up for this set up. I also do not want to add weight to the rear in the likes of the 3800SC. I want to track this car so balance is key. And power for the sake of power is not my main goal. I have seen a lot of Fiero videos of drag strips, and while that is fun I want to carve up road courses.

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ChuckR
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Report this Post07-11-2019 07:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Joseph Upson did a 3900 swap, but he did a lot of weird mods (turbo, offset ground stroker crank), so you'll have to filter through a lot of extraneous information to figure out what a stock swap looks like.


I did see this build while I was stalking the forum before I signed up. This is one of the builds that I was talking about being switched to ODBI. And the build was done in 07 before HP Tuners cracked the ECU. I did figure out that is why it was being reverted to ODBI. I guess I will have to do a detailed build on just a straight swap when I do it. I am realistically looking at 2 years out from now, so dont hold your breath in suspense. I am still researching so please any other help would be greatly appreciated.

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Report this Post07-12-2019 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hiwil88formulaClick Here to Email hiwil88formulaSend a Private Message to hiwil88formulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have a running lz9/f23 running the e67 ecm. Basically like it cam out of the 09 Lucerne it came out of. I have it attached to the factory gauges. I have to tell you it is a ton of fab work. I got the diagrams from gmtuners and wired the engine myself. Took about 3 years off and on to get it right. No I just need to figure out the tach and get the a/c working. Fun to drive and sounds awesome. I have tons of pics up on Facebook on pfffacebook page. Feel free to ask questions.

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ChuckR
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Report this Post07-13-2019 06:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by hiwil88formula:

I have a running lz9/f23 running the e67 ecm. Basically like it cam out of the 09 Lucerne it came out of. I have it attached to the factory gauges. I have to tell you it is a ton of fab work. I got the diagrams from gmtuners and wired the engine myself. Took about 3 years off and on to get it right. No I just need to figure out the tach and get the a/c working. Fun to drive and sounds awesome. I have tons of pics up on Facebook on pfffacebook page. Feel free to ask questions.


I will definitely be asking questions! First is what kind of fab work? I was hoping it would fit without cutting away at the car itself. I figure there is going to be a ton of wiring to get the electrical side working. I will look up your posts on PFF facebook.

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ChuckR
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Report this Post08-15-2019 07:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hiwil I have not found your pictures on the FB site. How much of the fab work was wiring? did you need to alter the frame? or was it all fabbing mounts ect? Please tell me more! I have been speaking with Ryan at sinister about different combos to get where I want, and even though this engine will not get me to my magical 300 WHP I want, i think it hits all of my other swap list, but that depends on what kind of fab work you are talking about here. I was hoping that it would be the least amount of metal fab.

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Report this Post08-15-2019 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The LFX high feature engine is gaining popularity as a swap but not in Fieros so far. Its light, DOHC, revs high and provide 300-325HP stock. If you can get it to work it might be the perfect engine.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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ChuckR
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Report this Post08-15-2019 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

The LFX high feature engine is gaining popularity as a swap but not in Fieros so far. Its light, DOHC, revs high and provide 300-325HP stock. If you can get it to work it might be the perfect engine.



I have been looking heavily at that package, but I was reading Daryl's build last night and there was some discussion about the 6T70E not fitting and I want to use a mated engine trans combo to keep things more simple. That and they were saying the BCM is required for that trans as well, where I do not think the 4T75E mated to the 3900 requires the BMC to work.Daryl has a really nice LFX build in process but he is doing the F40. I have thought of following his footsteps as well, but that will require changing over my car to manual and not being able to do a full donor car like I am planning. I can drive and do love a manual, but I am looking to keep my swap simple as can be since it is my first ever doing anything more than maintenance and I do not want an unfinished swap on my hands because I got in over my head. I do keep looking at the 3800SC too since it is well documented, but to be honest, I dont like how it sounds as silly as that is.Nor do I like the idea of adding more weight to the rear of the car since it already has a lot of front end lift under acceleration. i think the stock mounts even come real close to fitting the 3900 which is why I was trying to find Hiwil's build pictures.

i love the sound of my 2.8 and I have listened to clips of Impala's and Monte Carlo's with an exhaust on them and they sound pretty good too. The 3800SC is uninspiring to me. I mean you cant even hear the M90 SC whine like you can on the Cobalt's with the SC. Since right now I am researching I know I will change my mind another 6 times. I have a friend that is a VW freak that is trying to get me to do a VR6 like BMWGuru did as well... Yes I have been doing a lot of build stalking as of late... LOL. The LS4 is always a good idea too, but i really want to stay V6.

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Report this Post08-15-2019 12:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

If all you've done is maintenance, maybe you could start modifying the stock engine (i.e. making a custom exhaust for it, etc), as a way of building your fabrication skills before diving into a swap?

My Fiero has been down for almost three years while I modify the mostly stock engine... if I were doing a swap, I cannot imagine how long it would take to complete.

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Report this Post08-15-2019 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I did a performance rebuild on the 2.8 that came with my 86 GT. I spent over 2000.00 on it, bored over balanced etc etc. It ate a cam lobe after about 800 KM. Later I learned that the only decent lifters are GM OEM, not the aftermarket lifters I put in. The GM lifters were 5 times the price. Anyway , that is when I decided I did not want to deal with ancient technology anymore. I did a 2.2 ecotec swap, and by using all of the wiring harness and ECM, BCM and fuel pump etc from a 2004 cavalier I had it back on the road in 6 weeks. Obviously not without a lot of rough edges that I have been smoothing out for years but I try to use a simple guideline: If I cant get a mod done over a winter, I do not bother.
That being said, now that I am retired, each of my 2 hobby cars takes every other year off the road because I don't want to spend so much on insurance. This year I am driving my 91 civic wagon.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

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ChuckR
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Report this Post08-15-2019 03:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

If all you've done is maintenance, maybe you could start modifying the stock engine (i.e. making a custom exhaust for it, etc), as a way of building your fabrication skills before diving into a swap?

My Fiero has been down for almost three years while I modify the mostly stock engine... if I were doing a swap, I cannot imagine how long it would take to complete.


As wftb says below your post, I do not want to spend time and money on an engine that will never be anywhere close to what I am looking for. I am also looking for a project, something that will have my stamp that make this Chuck's Fiero, not just another 2.8 GT on the road. I spent the past year and a half deciding what car I wanted to do a swap in. I chose the Fiero because it is so unique and a piece of my childhood. I love the wedge, 80's nostalgia, the first (was only) US made mid-engine. I love my new to me, I have had it 1 month now, 1988 Fiero GT. I want to do it right, the way it was meant to be done when new. And while the 2.8 was a good step in the 80's it still wasnt the power level that was envisioned for this car. The LFX is closer to what the original vision for this car was, albeit a much more modern version of it. I am willing to stay on board with the 6 60 though even if it is iron and pushrod vs aluminum and DOHC. I want more and efficient power then the 2.8 will ever deliver. I want a better transmission than a near first generation transaxle is. But that doesnt mean I want to hack up the frame and and get way too much out of my scope. I will be planning this for at least a year if not 2. I will be asking seasoned builders about mounting locations, software, wiring etc before I ever come close to dropping the engine. I want the challange, i just dont want to be reinventing the wheel along the way. Nor do I want to have 40g in it when I am done. I am expecting 10-15..

[This message has been edited by ChuckR (edited 08-15-2019).]

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ChuckR
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Report this Post08-16-2019 06:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

It just hasn't been as popular. I think it's a great idea. The LZ9 can probably go up to 270 HP with a little work, like a cam swap, but the 3800 will go MUCH higher.

The LZ9 was offered with a stick in the Pontiac G6 GTP in 2006 & 2007.

The front engine mount bracket looks like this:





It bolts to the bottom of the oil pan and attaches to a mount very similar to the stock Fiero engine mount... There should be little to no modification required to get it mounted.

The minivan applications of the LZ9 have a "crossover" style exhaust that has a single outlet to the rear, which will be easier to deal with in a Fiero.


Will, for mounting the LZ9 in the cradle would I be correct in the assumption that the LZ9 will bolt to my stock TH125 transmission? I do not plan to use this trans mission, but I am thinking that if I leave it bolted in the cradle then bolt the LZ9 to it that will help in locating engine placement. Then once I have the motor mounts fabbed up and connected I can unbolt the TH125 and bolt up the 4T65E in its place and fabbing the trans mounts, thus keeping the original engine / trans locations and alignment.

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Report this Post08-16-2019 08:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:


Will, for mounting the LZ9 in the cradle would I be correct in the assumption that the LZ9 will bolt to my stock TH125 transmission? I do not plan to use this trans mission, but I am thinking that if I leave it bolted in the cradle then bolt the LZ9 to it that will help in locating engine placement. Then once I have the motor mounts fabbed up and connected I can unbolt the TH125 and bolt up the 4T65E in its place and fabbing the trans mounts, thus keeping the original engine / trans locations and alignment.


There is really no need to stick with the original engine/transmission placement. You will find that the 4T65 is much larger, and using your method will having you cutting portions of the cradle to fit the transmission after the fact. It is best to start with the engine & transmission combo and play around with the placement until it optimizes clearance, axle selections, etc. Even with the stock engine placement, the axle/CV angles changed between auto and manual transmissions, so there isn't a right or ideal axle angle, even from GM.

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Will
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Report this Post08-16-2019 11:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:

Will, for mounting the LZ9 in the cradle would I be correct in the assumption that the LZ9 will bolt to my stock TH125 transmission? I do not plan to use this trans mission, but I am thinking that if I leave it bolted in the cradle then bolt the LZ9 to it that will help in locating engine placement. Then once I have the motor mounts fabbed up and connected I can unbolt the TH125 and bolt up the 4T65E in its place and fabbing the trans mounts, thus keeping the original engine / trans locations and alignment.


There are bolt-in 4T65E mounts from WCF, and maybe other vendors that will let you locate the 4T65E right off the bat, then just locate the engine mount bracket and drill any required holes.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-16-2019).]

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ChuckR
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Report this Post08-16-2019 12:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


There are bolt-in 4T65E mounts from WCF, and maybe other vendors that will let you locate the 4T65E right off the bat, then just locate the engine mount bracket and drill any required holes.



If there are already mounts for this transmission is there already a tried and true axle? Thank you for that great info!

Edit:
I found these on WCF
https://westcoastfiero.com/...to-4t60-e-and-4t65-e
Is there a more economical version? I havent looked into it yet but 250 a side sounds incredibly expensive considering most CV are around 70 bucks for standards.

[This message has been edited by ChuckR (edited 08-16-2019).]

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ChuckR
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Report this Post08-16-2019 09:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ok I am looking around at options and I don't want to be lazy and just ask questions and have someone else give an answer.but I am finding I just don't know where to look to find my answers.

Here are my next 3 questions:
Are the LZ9 internals strong enough for turbo charging. I was kind of looking at some exhaust mounted options since there isn't far to go so a lot of the downfalls to rear mounted turbos are not as applicable. I know they are present still but not as bad since it is all in the same place.

Where do I look to find this kind of information?

Has anyone used something like this
https://www.drivetrain.com/...Z9LfDQhehkYWyKCyzaSY

What are the drawbacks and are there better options out there?

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wftb
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Report this Post08-16-2019 10:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

In the old days, like 30 years ago, a turbo engine needed forged pistons, forged rods and a cast iron block to survive turbocharging. Now all you need is modern electronic controls. Modern OBD2 ECM's monitor what is going on inside an engine thousands a time a second. They adjust fuel flow, timing and monitor coolant temps and air intake tempurature and make on the fly adjustments. And they wil do this even if the ECM was not on a turbo car to begin with. Spending a ton of money on internal upgrades is mostly a waste of time and money. You can turbo just about anything.

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Will
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Report this Post08-17-2019 12:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:


If there are already mounts for this transmission is there already a tried and true axle? Thank you for that great info!

Edit:
I found these on WCF
https://westcoastfiero.com/...to-4t60-e-and-4t65-e
Is there a more economical version? I havent looked into it yet but 250 a side sounds incredibly expensive considering most CV are around 70 bucks for standards.



Axles would be assembled the same way as with a 3800 swap using that transmission.

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Report this Post08-19-2019 03:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

In the old days, like 30 years ago, a turbo engine needed forged pistons, forged rods and a cast iron block to survive turbocharging. Now all you need is modern electronic controls. Modern OBD2 ECM's monitor what is going on inside an engine thousands a time a second. They adjust fuel flow, timing and monitor coolant temps and air intake tempurature and make on the fly adjustments. And they wil do this even if the ECM was not on a turbo car to begin with. Spending a ton of money on internal upgrades is mostly a waste of time and money. You can turbo just about anything.


You can turbo about anything, that doesn't mean that you don't need to worry about internals. If you put 20 PSI of boost on non forged stock internals you can break things, fast. The engines today are all high compression compared to the old days. Though the 3.9 is lower than a lot of others now days at 9.8:1. With a 9.8:1 ratio you can run more boost than say a 12:1, but I am trying to figure out how much boost I can safely run if i wanted to. if the internals are forged like a LE5 Ecotec then it is capable of taking FI better than if they are just standard.

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Report this Post08-19-2019 04:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Forged internals are always better of course but I am always amazed at how modern controls will keep everything from blowing apart. With the help of bigger injectors, HP tuners and a water meth injection kit, I ran 11 psi of boost in a stock 2.2 L61 ecotec without damage. The engine I run now has 10.5:1 compression ratio and I run the same amount of boost but it does have forged pistons and rods. I added even larger injectors (44lbs) and the watermeth set up became redundant so I no longer run it. I also got rid of my FMU because it was interfering with the ecm. The FMU would raise fuel pressure under boost and then the computer would dial back the injectors, so it became redundant too. Meanwhile, this was overworking the fuel pump. And I blew 2 of those.
I have no intention of running 20 psi. The engine is running strong enough for me and there are a few things that would prevent 20 psi anyway. The plastic LE5 intake manifold I run will split at 20 psi. The biggest mistake I made was using a 2" exhaust on my setup. I thought it would be big enough with my new mufflerless setup but it starved the turbo and it would not rev over 6500. After a month of chasing my tail around tuning I scrapped the 2" exhaust and replaced it with 2.5" piping and then I got my 7000 revs back. It could use a 3" exhaust but I can't be bothered, and room for that is tight.
I follow all the engine build threads on here and a lot of them are just about a lot of money blown and blown engines. A lot of fun to read about but really not very productive. Some of them have never run. My advice always is to see what you can get out of a low mileage stock motor and then decide how deep you want to go.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
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Report this Post08-19-2019 06:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Forged internals are always better of course but I am always amazed at how modern controls will keep everything from blowing apart. With the help of bigger injectors, HP tuners and a water meth injection kit, I ran 11 psi of boost in a stock 2.2 L61 ecotec without damage. The engine I run now has 10.5:1 compression ratio and I run the same amount of boost but it does have forged pistons and rods. I added even larger injectors (44lbs) and the watermeth set up became redundant so I no longer run it. I also got rid of my FMU because it was interfering with the ecm. The FMU would raise fuel pressure under boost and then the computer would dial back the injectors, so it became redundant too. Meanwhile, this was overworking the fuel pump. And I blew 2 of those.
I have no intention of running 20 psi. The engine is running strong enough for me and there are a few things that would prevent 20 psi anyway. The plastic LE5 intake manifold I run will split at 20 psi. The biggest mistake I made was using a 2" exhaust on my setup. I thought it would be big enough with my new mufflerless setup but it starved the turbo and it would not rev over 6500. After a month of chasing my tail around tuning I scrapped the 2" exhaust and replaced it with 2.5" piping and then I got my 7000 revs back. It could use a 3" exhaust but I can't be bothered, and room for that is tight.
I follow all the engine build threads on here and a lot of them are just about a lot of money blown and blown engines. A lot of fun to read about but really not very productive. Some of them have never run. My advice always is to see what you can get out of a low mileage stock motor and then decide how deep you want to go.



Yes! This is why I was asking about what the stock is on this engine and what it can handle. I have no intention of ever going to 20 PSI boost. I was just throwing that out there as an example. I think for my purposes if I do this motor and if I boost, it will be low numbers 6-8 psi.
On your exhaust at 2.5" from all the research I did on the Ecotec Miata, those engines need the 3" and it was a problem for many of the Miata guys without going to the V8roadsters subframe to fit it through. I was really close to going Miata before I found my Fiero. I am glad I did find the Fiero. The Miata is a wonderful car, but it doesnt fit me. I am a bit too fat and have just a touch of redneck, I did have a mullet in the 80's... Although i was too little to pick for myself a hairstyle.

I honestly would prefer a SC to a turbo for the low rev power/ no lag. I know that it robs power to make power, but it is more linear power. I would love to do a Vortech head unit (centrifugal) but they dont make a kit for the 3900. Turbos are cheaper too, much cheaper. I think I would pass on meth injection as it seems more involved to get it running and probably overkill for my wants. I would instead do an air to air intercooler if there is room in the engine bay. Joseph found room so I know it is there.

Again this is all hypothetical since I am just in research stages. Most likely I will just go with a standard install to start with. K.I.S.S. I think with Will pointing out the trans mount kits for the 4T65E on westcoastfiero.com and the how to build instructions on Ryan's page for the shafts I am heavily leaning toward this LZ9. Hiwil sent me pictures of his car and a nice dyno sheet showing 213 WHP and 225 WTQ so I know what it will run at the wheels bone stock. Looks like there is only some light modification needed to keep the AC compressor and the hinge box delete to make room for the alternator, and motor mounts of coarse. Then the copious amounts of wiring. Then enjoy that for a while, I mean it will double the WHP bone stock and I know I will be happy with that for at least a year or 2. Then once I have all the bugs worked out I can complicate the build a bit more by adding the turbo and maybe get to my goal HP of 300 WHP ( around 375 at crank.)

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ChuckR
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Report this Post08-22-2019 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Well this isnt swap related but I wanted to share and it doesnt warrant a new thread....

I was just gifted a set of these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B...ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
LED head lights, it was on my amazon wish list as something I thought was kinda cool, and might one day buy.... maybe. Well now I have them. I will let you all know if they are any good once I install them and get the turn signals and DRL wired in. I will run the DRL to the parking lamp and use as a halo instead of DRL.

Cheers!

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Report this Post08-23-2019 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqEg7Iav-5w


Here is a short video of how they look. They give great light, needs a bit of adjustment. Focus is lower than stock.

[This message has been edited by ChuckR (edited 08-23-2019).]

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Report this Post08-30-2019 07:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

While researching the possibility of a much later planned boost application I came across this from the 60degreeV6 website.

 
quote
what we do when we apply boost to late model gm vehicles is we get a map sensor for a chevy cobalt ss or a c6 zr1 corvette and we use hptuners to convert the ecu to a 2 or 3 bar os. and now the ecu can see when the intake manifold is under boost. and there are extra breakpoints added for those higher kpa levels. then we tune the ve tables in the newly added reigons and then we tune the maf. and the ecu works the same way it did from the factory, just now it uses boost. the right way. the other way is the canned tune way. it forces all fueling off of the maf. while a lot will argue this method works, I would like to point out that to date not 1 car has left a manufacturing plant tuned like that. every boosted oem application the ecu sees boost. tuning shouldn't be about what you can get away with, but how good you can get it.


This is in response to someone asking about boosting a 3900VVT. Is it that simple? I know that you have to take these things on forums with a grain of salt.

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Report this Post08-30-2019 09:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:

While researching the possibility of a much later planned boost application I came across this from the 60degreeV6 website.


This is in response to someone asking about boosting a 3900VVT. Is it that simple? I know that you have to take these things on forums with a grain of salt.

It looks like common sense to me. You cannot safely run a boosted application without a two/three bar map unless it employs a MAF sensor based PCM that uses the VE tables as only a fall back option (like on the 3800SC}.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Report this Post08-30-2019 11:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

So for instance the 3900 is VVT, so would the flashed OS need to have those options as well? Also the 3900 does not have a wide band O2. so does this mean with the reflash you can use a wide band from a Cobalt? It just seems like there is a lot more to it than refalsh your ECM with one that has a 2 or 3 bar MAP. I asked Darth Fiero about boosting and he said:
 
quote
It is possible the factory 3900 ECM (even with DBW) could be custom tuned to work with a turbo. But these ECMs didn't use a wideband o2 sensor, and that would be preferred in any serious turbo build.


Is this how you can use the factory ECM? I am trying to wrap my head around the hows of it.

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Report this Post08-31-2019 10:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

You do not need a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor for the ECU to see boost. A maxed out 1 bar map sensor is at about 8 psi of boost on my guage in the car compared to what the ECU is seeing. The OS on my car does not have a MAF sensor, many newer OS's have both. So the ECU will read from negative manifold pressure at no boost to 1 bar or about 8 psi when boost gets that high, and everything in between. So, you can set up your tune based on that, with things like taking off timing starting at about .8 bar and going from there. After you get to the point in the MAP/timing/rpm table where you know it is over 1 bar you just go to the high rpm part of the table and pretend the ECU is seeing 2 bar if that is close to what you are going to set boost levels at and set the timing accordingly. And check all the tables that also reference MAP readings and make changes as needed.
For VE tables on my tune I don't mess with them. There is a VE offset that stock is set at 20%. Change that and all the tables change. I run at 50% with the 20G mitsu turbo I run. The other thing to change is the rpm that the Power Enrich function comes on at. On most NA cars that is set very high, 5500 rpm in my case. I have that set at 2500 rpm and there is a table to set AFR vs RPM in PE mode so you can compensate for the lack of a 2 bar there as well. There are other tables that can be fudged with too to help in high boost situations.
In my case I can not mount a wide band and hook it directly to the ECU because there is no input for one. To use a wide band, I have to send its signal in to my HP tuners interface and then see if I am getting the results I want with a scan. Since I can't set AFR except under PE, I have not bothered hooking one up.
Intake air temperature (IAT) readings usually have a direct impact on timing and other tables as well, even on an NA engine. So a good intercooler is a necessity. And relocate the IAT so it is reading temps after the intercooler and before the throttle body.
I am by no means an expert tuner. Most of what I have done is just what other people have done and posted on HP tuners forum. If you have HP tuners you can download other peoples tunes as well. Makes it easy to see what works and what does not work.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

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Report this Post09-01-2019 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

You do not need a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor for the ECU to see boost. A maxed out 1 bar map sensor is at about 8 psi of boost on my guage in the car compared to what the ECU is seeing. The OS on my car does not have a MAF sensor, many newer OS's have both. So the ECU will read from negative manifold pressure at no boost to 1 bar or about 8 psi when boost gets that high, and everything in between. So, you can set up your tune based on that, with things like taking off timing starting at about .8 bar and going from there. After you get to the point in the MAP/timing/rpm table where you know it is over 1 bar you just go to the high rpm part of the table and pretend the ECU is seeing 2 bar if that is close to what you are going to set boost levels at and set the timing accordingly. And check all the tables that also reference MAP readings and make changes as needed.
For VE tables on my tune I don't mess with them. There is a VE offset that stock is set at 20%. Change that and all the tables change. I run at 50% with the 20G mitsu turbo I run. The other thing to change is the rpm that the Power Enrich function comes on at. On most NA cars that is set very high, 5500 rpm in my case. I have that set at 2500 rpm and there is a table to set AFR vs RPM in PE mode so you can compensate for the lack of a 2 bar there as well. There are other tables that can be fudged with too to help in high boost situations.
In my case I can not mount a wide band and hook it directly to the ECU because there is no input for one. To use a wide band, I have to send its signal in to my HP tuners interface and then see if I am getting the results I want with a scan. Since I can't set AFR except under PE, I have not bothered hooking one up.
Intake air temperature (IAT) readings usually have a direct impact on timing and other tables as well, even on an NA engine. So a good intercooler is a necessity. And relocate the IAT so it is reading temps after the intercooler and before the throttle body.
I am by no means an expert tuner. Most of what I have done is just what other people have done and posted on HP tuners forum. If you have HP tuners you can download other peoples tunes as well. Makes it easy to see what works and what does not work.





If it's actually reading boost, it's a 2 bar sensor. A 1 bar is only good for atmospheric. Either way, your gauge is wrong.

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Report this Post09-01-2019 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

People forget that without boost the intake is under negative pressure. To get to 1 bar in the intake manifold takes about 8 psi on my setup. There is nothing wrong with my guage. I think I am not wording this right, what I mean is it takes 8 psi of pressure in the tube that goes from the turbo to the throttle body to get the ECU to see 1 bar in the intake manifold. And since a MAP sensor is reading Manifold Absolute Pressure (pressure in the intake manifold after the throttle body), a 1 bar MAP will show the intake manifold under boost with a limited range. My boost guage and all my reference points for water/meth etc are connected directly to the intake manifold after the throttle body.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 09-01-2019).]

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Report this Post09-01-2019 06:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BillSClick Here to Email BillSSend a Private Message to BillSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Might want to look at the recent Ecotecs, although the 3.9 is also a logical swap for the Fiero.

The 4 cylinder Ecotecs in turbo form are physically smaller, lighter engines that offer up to 400 bhp with very little work - don't even need to do anything inside the engines. There are threads around here on people that have done the non-turbo version as a Fiero swap to give you an idea of what is involved.

I have a mildly tuned one (375 bhp) in a 3,000 lb. Solstice that will do just under 13 flat in the 1/4 yet gets 30 mpg (highway) when driving normally. I've always thought that using one in a 300 lb. lighter Fiero would be rather interesting....

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Report this Post09-02-2019 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

People forget that without boost the intake is under negative pressure. To get to 1 bar in the intake manifold takes about 8 psi on my setup. There is nothing wrong with my guage. I think I am not wording this right, what I mean is it takes 8 psi of pressure in the tube that goes from the turbo to the throttle body to get the ECU to see 1 bar in the intake manifold. And since a MAP sensor is reading Manifold Absolute Pressure (pressure in the intake manifold after the throttle body), a 1 bar MAP will show the intake manifold under boost with a limited range. My boost guage and all my reference points for water/meth etc are connected directly to the intake manifold after the throttle body.


Pressure and vacuum are relative to the reference point.
Atmospheric pressure is always present and is 14.7 psi or 101kPa and varies with elevation and temperature/humidity changes.

Turn a car on, engine not running and the MAP will read in the 95 to 100 kPa range (measuring atmospheric pressure). This is 1 BAR and this is the highest reading that most 1 BAR MAP sensors are calibrated for.
Run a NA car at WOT and you will also be in the 90 to 100KPA range. A good debate question is how does air get into the engine? Is it being sucked in by engine rotation or pushed in via atmospheric pressure? There definitely is a 14.7 psi force pushing air into the NA engine, but the pumping motion of the engine can exceed the inlet flow of air (seen as less than Key On KPA reading).

When a NA engine is idling it can see 40 to 60 kPa. This is less than atmosphere, but would still be pressurized around 7 PSI, so the manifold isn't in a true "vacuum or negative pressure" state only a lower pressure state. It is very, very difficult for an engine to reach 0 kPa (even engine braking at 7000 rpm with the throttle closed) and you need to reach this point to create a true vacuum (zero atmospheric pressure) and go beyond it to create a negative vacuum state.

When people refer to boost pressure, it is in relation to atmospheric pressure. 7psi boost = 21.7psi actual. 14.7 psi boost = 29.4 psi = 2 BAR.

So if you want to accurately measure boost pressure in the 1-15 psi range, you need a 2 BAR map sensor, boost pressure in the 15 to 30 psi range needs a 3 BAR.

Many of the later model GM ECMs/calibrations have factory tables that go beyond the 1 BAR range and allow tuning for boost with the proper MAP sensor. Instead of the basic RPM x MAP timing table, most now use RPM x cylinder airmass for timing and hopped up NA applications barely use half of the table.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-02-2019).]

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Report this Post09-02-2019 02:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here is a screen shot of what I see on my laptop while taking a scan:



We have gotten way off topic but you can see the MAP is reading boost.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

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Report this Post09-03-2019 05:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by BillS:

Might want to look at the recent Ecotecs, although the 3.9 is also a logical swap for the Fiero.

The 4 cylinder Ecotecs in turbo form are physically smaller, lighter engines that offer up to 400 bhp with very little work - don't even need to do anything inside the engines. There are threads around here on people that have done the non-turbo version as a Fiero swap to give you an idea of what is involved.

I have a mildly tuned one (375 bhp) in a 3,000 lb. Solstice that will do just under 13 flat in the 1/4 yet gets 30 mpg (highway) when driving normally. I've always thought that using one in a 300 lb. lighter Fiero would be rather interesting....


While I respect the Ecotec engines and their capabilities, I wanted to stay with the 60* V6 engine line. Frankly I like the way they sound. The Ecotecs are not so great sounding to me. Since there are 1001 ways to swap and make power I am going to keep the overall sound of the car as a factor. While I am asking about boost right now, I am planning an NA swap. My boost questions are in case the NA swap just isnt enough for what I am looking for at a later date and I want more power what all would be involved. Which sounds like if I want to boost the 3900 properly I will have to stand alone ECU, and cam it since I would most likely be loosing VVT with that set up. Though wftb is boosting on an NA set up and it is working well, I think the MAP and wideband O2 would necessitate the engine management change from what I am reading from Fieroguru and what Darth Fiero had told me in PM. I know the 3900 can be boosted. There is a thread out there in the F body forums where a guy is posting 10's on the 3900 in a 3rd gen Camaro. I believe Joseph Upson also has a boosted 3900, just trying to see what it takes to get there.

[This message has been edited by ChuckR (edited 09-03-2019).]

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