As the title says, my four speed won't shift (while running). Depressing the clutch pedal seems to not quite disengage the clutch from the flywheel. Example being, If you put the car in first gear, depress the clutch pedal all the way and start the car, the car lurches forward. if you keep the pedal depressed the car will still start, but the car will move forward slowly like the clutch is slipping, if you take it out of gear, you would be unable to put into any gear without turning the car off. depressing the clutch moves the slave cylinder piston, but I'm not sure the exact length of travel.
I figured I would try the cheapest and easiest fix before I went crazy. The clutch fluid level was fine but I bled the system and some filthy looking fluid came out, but seemingly no air. The new fluid wasn't enough to fix the problem. My slave cylinder is not that old in terms of KMs, but maybe the fluid was contaminated and rusted it out from the inside or something?
Anyways, is there a way to isolate whether its the slave or master cylinder thats failing, or is my best bet just to change the slave cylinder and if that doesn't work, change out the master?
As well, the Fiero shop service manual says that this problem is likely within the transmission itself (Fork and bearing problem, loose clutch bolts, clutch binding on input shaft, etc), this seems unlikely but is there a way to rule it out before I change out the clutch system?
EDIT FOR THOSE HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM:
In the end, the problem was in the clutch housing, a torsion spring broke loose and prevented the clutch from disengaging.
If someone is reading this thread because they are having the same problem I did, here's what I recommend you do.
1) verify that there is no air in the clutch line. A good way to check is it to take the rod out of the slave cylinder and let the piston in the slave be pushed all the way till it hits the snap ring that is retaining it. Get into the car, get your head down to where the pedals are, look at the banjo rod for the master cylinder and LIGHTLY push the clutch pedal in. if there is air in the system, the banjo rod will have a bit of travel and will feel bouncy (this is the air being compressed in the lines). If the putting pressure on the pedal does not move the banjo rod at all its because you are trying to push the slave piston through the retaining ring and you most likely don't have air in the system. While you are under there, inspect the banjo, make sure that the flat part of the banjo is facing the ground, that the banjo rod is not bent, and that there are no leaks from the master cylinder traveling down the banjo rod or dripping behind the carpeting.
1)b) if you have air in the system, there are special bleeding techniques required to properly bleed the system. V-8 Archie has a good method. I vacuum bled my system and it worked great but apparently other people have had problems with that before, so do what you are comfortable with.
2) Check the amount of travel on both the master and slave cylinder... from what I can gather, the master and slave cylinder bore diameters are the same. So when the master moves a certain amount, the slave should move the same amount. The maximum travel you will get from the master is around 1.25". No one can seem to tell me exactly how much travel you need on the slave to disengage the clutch, but consensus is just under 1". measure the travel on both the master and the slave cylinder. Make a mark on the banjo rod and the slave rod, depress the clutch (since I was working alone, I depressed the clutch and wedged a screwdriver between the clutch pedal and a flare on the steering column to hold it down) and measure the travel
3) If you aren't getting around 1" of travel of the banjo rod, make sure your clutch pedal isn't bent. Mine was good but from what everyone has been saying, if your clutch pedal isn't sitting over 1" higher than your brake pedal, then it is bent. Also check to see if you have an aluminum pedal or a steel one (put a magnet to it, if it sticks...it's steel) as the aluminum ones were prone to bending.
3) b) If you are getting 1" or more at the master but less than that at the slave, you need to remove the slave from its mounting bracket and measure it with out it being connected to the clutch arm as a block in the transmission might cause this problem. Once you have the slave removed from its mount, push the slave rod as far as it can go into the slave cylinder and get a helper to push the clutch pedal down. Measure the travel while pushing the slave rod firmly into the slave cylinder. If you are getting around 1" than the hydraulic portion of your clutch system is likely working fine. If you do not have 1" of travel, you have a faulty part within your hydraulic system, probably the slave cylinder (Use Rodney Dickman replacement they are cheaper and better than what you will get at a parts store).
4) If the movement of the master and slave is good then inspect clutch arm for bends or breaks, this apparently is an issue and will cause the problems I described above (this however was not my problem so I'm not 100% sure what you should be looking for). Removing the clutch arm to inspect is probably best, but mine was seized on so hard that I didn't want to risk bending the clutch fork trying to pry it off. It was easier to remove the heat shielding and stick my phone down there and take a good video of the arm so I get a good look at it from all sides.
5) If all this testing hasn't yielded a problem, then I'd bet you have a problem with the clutch assembly in the transmission.
[This message has been edited by McCool (edited 07-08-2019).]
There are about a billion threads here on this very issue.
If the slave is not moving at least an inch before the clutch pedal hits the floor, then you most likely still have air in the system... or your pedal (and/or banjo) is bent.
With my wife's '84 2.5 4-speed, we have encountered a recurring need to bleed the clutch (caused by a leaking master cylinder) and loose slave mounting hardware. By the way, the clutch does NOT like to be bled the same way the brakes are bled. You or your helper will need to crack the bleeder, THEN press the clutch pedal to the floor,THEN close the bleeder. Resist the urge to "pump" the pedal or to pressurize the system before cracking the bleeder. Hope this helps.
If the slave is not moving at least an inch before the clutch pedal hits the floor, then you most likely still have air in the system... or your pedal (and/or banjo) is bent.
Thanks Patrick, when I am at the garage next I'll confirm the piston travel to be around 1 inch. I'll take a peek at the banjo bolt and the pedal as well.
I read in another post that someone having the same issue ended up having the bolts on the flywheel come out... so hopefully its something easier than that because I'm not sure I'm willing to drop the cradle at this moment.
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Originally posted by CSM842M4:
By the way, the clutch does NOT like to be bled the same way the brakes are bled. You or your helper will need to crack the bleeder, THEN press the clutch pedal to the floor,THEN close the bleeder. Resist the urge to "pump" the pedal or to pressurize the system before cracking the bleeder. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the tip, but I vacuum bled the system, it was much easier aside from the master cylinder reservoir being capable of holding no more than a half a milliliter of DOT 3.
V-8 Archie has a write up on his website detailing a sure fire way to bleed all of the air out of the slave cylinder. Bubbles may be trapped in the area near the pushrod, his method ensures they are removed. Check it out, it works.
If you're vacuum bleeding or conventional bleeding, like olejoedad said, bubbles can be trapped at the pushrod end of the slave. The left front of the car needs to be lifted just enough that the wheel starts to come off the ground. Do your bleeding but rap on the side of the slave a few times in the process to make those trapped air bubbles move up to the bleeder end.
Five things to check: 1. Does the clutch pedal sit about 1 inch higher than the brake pedal? 2. Poke your finger all the way up into the hole where the pushrod goes into the back of the slave. Fluid leaks aren't always visible in this area. 3. Is the curl on the banjo rod turned upward? 4. Slip the boot off the end of the slave and check for fluid. 5. While someone operates the clutch, observe the slave cylinder bracket. If it moves it's cracked or loose. Breaking is a common problem with the 4-speed bracket.
If you're vacuum bleeding or conventional bleeding, like olejoedad said, bubbles can be trapped at the pushrod end of the slave. The left front of the car needs to be lifted just enough that the wheel starts to come off the ground. Do your bleeding but rap on the side of the slave a few times in the process to make those trapped air bubbles move up to the bleeder end.
Five things to check: 1. Does the clutch pedal sit about 1 inch higher than the brake pedal? 2. Poke your finger all the way up into the hole where the pushrod goes into the back of the slave. Fluid leaks aren't always visible in this area. 3. Is the curl on the banjo rod turned upward? 4. Slip the boot off the end of the slave and check for fluid. 5. While someone operates the clutch, observe the slave cylinder bracket. If it moves it's cracked or loose. Breaking is a common problem with the 4-speed bracket.
The clutch pedal sits higher than the brake, the slave cylinder does not appear to be leaking, and the cylinder bracket does not appear to be broken. However I don't know what you mean by "banjo rod turned upward".
I bleed the system v-8 archies way and tested the slave cylinder travel and only got somewhere in the area of 3/4" of travel. So I might be looking at changing the slave cylinder first and moving on from there.
Okay, so the banjo of the master cylinder is up. And does not appear to be bent.
I replaced the slave cylinder and bled the system the archie way and I'm still only getting about 3/4" if movement at the slave piston,the pedal feels very firm and I would be surprised if there was more air in the system.
From what I can tell, the clutch pedal is not bent, it does sit higher than the brake pedal and the U shaped bracket that attaches to the banjo seems square and secure. As well, I have a steel clutch pedal, not an aluminum one. I did notice that the banjo from the master cylinder is worn in such a way that makes me feel it used to be pushed further, but maybe that has more to do with the grommet being old and worn down... I'm not sure how to verify whether or not the master cylinder rod is traveling enough.
From what I can tell, the clutch pedal is not bent, it does sit higher than the brake pedal and the U shaped bracket that attaches to the banjo seems square and secure...
When the banjo is disconnected from the clutch pedal, is the pedal then able to come up further? If so, the banjo can be lengthened which will result in greater travel of the clutch master (and therefore also of the slave). I made my own adjustable banjo, but I believe Rodney also sells them.
When the banjo is disconnected from the clutch pedal, is the pedal then able to come up further?.
I'll check that when I'm at the garage next, but I'm confident that the answer is no. I specifically remember seeing the U-bracket hit a rubber stop placed above the clutch pedal.
Just so I have my head straight when I head to the garage next...
First thing I should check again is that there is no air in the system, basically re-do the archie bleed. After that, take a real close look at the clutch pedal and banjo rod and ensure everything is not bent.
assuming that's all good, Should I be changing out the master? Or do you guys have a feeling the problem is elsewhere?
Bleeding the system again got a few micro bubbles out but nothing significant and it wasn't enough to make a difference.
Taking the banjo off didn't allow the clutch to move forward any more than maybe an 1/16" at where the banjo connects. So I'm not sure a longer banjo would do anything.
However, the banjo had a wierd Grommet in the hole to make it fit the pedal, which to me would mean the pedal was changed out from the aluminum one to the steel one with the different pin and the old banjo was rigged to work... thoughts?
Anyways, I'm thinking it's time to order a master cylinder from Mr.Dickman because I am confident that the pedal assembly and the slave cylinder are good. So unless there is a leak in the system that I can't find. The only thing left is the master cylinder... right?
However, the banjo had a wierd Grommet in the hole to make it fit the pedal, which to me would mean the pedal was changed out from the aluminum one to the steel one with the different pin and the old banjo was rigged to work... thoughts?
How rigid is this grommet? If it "squishes" under load, that would be no good.
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Originally posted by McCool:
So unless there is a leak in the system that I can't find. The only thing left is the master cylinder... right?
I've never had an issue with a clutch master cylinder myself, but I understand that one thing to look for is fluid leaking from it and saturating the underpad material where the banjo comes through the bulkhead. Any evidence of fluid there?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-12-2019).]
How rigid is this grommet? If it "squishes" under load, that would be no good.
I've never had an issue with a clutch master cylinder myself, but I understand that one thing to look for is fluid leaking from it and saturating the underpad material where the banjo comes through the bulkhead. Any evidence of fluid there?
The grommet seems pretty solid. its made from some kind of hard plastic, it has the feel of ABS plumbing pipe. I doubt its causing the issue.
No evidence of a fluid leak from the master cylinder, the banjo is dry, and no evidence of leakage through the grommet leading to the cylinder. Unless something wierd is happening, there is no fluid leak anywhere. The level in the master cylinder did not drop below full and the clutch pedal has been firm (aside from when bleeding of course) the whole time I've been having this problem.
So to me the problem is one of the following: 1) I have completely and totally failed to bleed the system properly and air is causing me to not get the proper movement of the slave, 2) The master cylinder is not transferring the fluid properly to the slave cylinder to get full movement. 3) The slave cylinder is in fact traveling as far as it should, and I have a problem with the transmission.
There were two style clutch pedal pins. One of them had a black plastic bushing. https://www.fierostore.com/...spx?s=64900&d=89&p=1 Reproductions of this bushing has been a problem. Recently people have found that the bushing for the '92 Corvette is an OEM part and works better. They have also used a washer and E clip to retain everything on the pedal.
As has been mentioned a couple of times, fluid leaking from the back of the master cylinder is very difficult to recognize. The banjo rod probably won't be wet. The fluid runs down at the very edge of the master cylinder and seeps into the carpet padding. You would have to probe all the way back until you feel the back edge of the master cylinder to know if there's any fluid leak. Fluid leaks at the slave can also be retained inside the pushrod boot. Pulling the bottom edge of the boot off the slave groove that holds it on can reveal any fluid that might be there.
If the transmission shifts well without the engine running but the car tries to move with engine running and clutch in, I don't believe the problem would be with the transmission. Check the pinch bolt on the clutch release arm that the slave pushrod pushes against and be sure it's tight.
Some of the clutch arms were stamped steel and some were cast. The stamped steel units tend to be a problem and could cause the problem you're experiencing. TFS has a cast clutch arm. https://www.fierostore.com/...spx?s=64120&d=85&p=1
I replaced the slave cylinder and bled the system the archie way and I'm still only getting about 3/4" of movement at the slave piston,the pedal feels very firm and I would be surprised if there was more air in the system.
quote
Originally posted by McCool:
So to me the problem is one of the following: 1) I have completely and totally failed to bleed the system properly and air is causing me to not get the proper movement of the slave. 2) The master cylinder is not transferring the fluid properly to the slave cylinder to get full movement. 3) The slave cylinder is in fact traveling as far as it should, and I have a problem with the transmission.
what are you guys thinking?
I'll pick door #1
I had one helluva time years ago bleeding the clutch on my first Fiero, an '87 duke. The only way I could get all the air out of the system was to pressure bleed it. Turned out that the single seal slave was the issue all along. Air was constantly being sucked past the one seal and into the slave. The double seal slave developed and sold by Rodney Dickman absolutely completely solved the problem. I suspect the new slave you bought is not what I recommended.
The double seal slave developed and sold by Rodney Dickman absolutely completely solved the problem. I suspect the new slave you bought is not what I recommended.
You are correct, I didn't buy a Rodney Dickman slave cylinder. I appreciate that they are of superior quality and I would be better off with one. But in all fairness, the car has made it to 240,000km without one, and this isn't the first slave cylinder I have replaced in this car. Upon inspection of the old slave cylinder that I removed, I doubt it was malfunctioning. There was no evidence of any leaking and it actuated as easily as the new one does. However, this is the first time I have vacuum bled rather than pressure bled the system, so I'm going to try again to bleed the system, this time with a helper working the clutch. I will do this at the same time that I install the new master cylinder (from Mr. Dickman this time) and hopefully that will take care of it.... I'll let you know Tuesday when the parts arrive (hopefully).
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Originally posted by fierofool:
Check the pinch bolt on the clutch release arm that the slave pushrod pushes against and be sure it's tight.
Upon inspection of the old slave cylinder that I removed, I doubt it was malfunctioning. There was no evidence of any leaking and it actuated as easily as the new one does. However, this is the first time I have vacuum bled rather than pressure bled the system...
My experience with single seal slaves is that air can be sucked past the seal without any evidence of fluid leaking out. I just can't emphasize that enough. With all the hassle I had (and many many others have had) with air in Fiero clutch hydraulics, I would never install a single seal slave again.
This is one of the first threads I ever participated in here... over 20 years ago! I remember it like it was yesterday. Clutch Info uncovered
I'm "glad" to see that I'm not the only one who has clutch problems with their Fiero.
I have a question. Is it possible for air to be drawn into the system at the slave end without any evidence of fluid leaking from the slave cylinder? I continually have a problem with air in the system, but I've been reluctant to replace the slave because I haven't noticed any leakage of fluid. However, every couple of months when I can no longer disengage the clutch enough, out comes the bleeding kit.
I'm getting awfully tired of bleeding this damn thing though. We could probably start a new thread containing just the methods that everyone has individually developed to bleed the clutch hydraulics on the Fiero. My experience has taught me that it is NOT an easy skill to acquire.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-15-2019).]
The double seal slave certainly reduces if not eliminates the likelihood of air being sucked into the system. But there's another source of air bubbles. It comes from boiling of the fluid.
The V6 coolant crossover and the exhaust downpipe are very close to the fluid line as it comes upward toward the slave cylinder. In slow or stop and go traffic when there isn't much airflow through the engine bay, that proximity can overheat the clutch fluid. To reduce this possibility, I use the ribbed wire harness sleeves, cut to a length that fits snugly against the bottom of the line where it attaches to the chassis, and extends up to the top of the braided portion of the line. This acts as an insulator and also as a heatsink.
The fluid line has a slight angle as it comes downward from the slave cylinder. Giving it a slight twist before tightening the line nut, to bring the line away from the coolant hose and exhaust can also help reduce the possibility of boiling the fluid.
Some Fiero clutch wisdom from V8 Archie. I used his procedure to bleed mine and it works great. I have a Getrag 5 speed behind a Series III 3800 and used one of Rodneys Isuzu slave cylinders, smaller bore size, and like the way it reduces the amount of pedal travel necessary to disengage the clutch. Shifts are better, less chance of clutch drag when shifting but the Getrag will never shift as slick as todays manual transmissions.
Since my last post I have installed a dickman master cylinder and re-bled the system with well over a liter of dot3 using both a vacuum and pressure bleed (archie style). There is no air in the system, I am sure of it. The master cylinder is getting full travel of the banjo rod and the clutch pedal is stiffer than a priest at a playground... still wont shift. I'm running out of patience with the car.
Full disclosure, this is one of two fieros I own and it is most certainly the worse of the two. I was selling it when the clutch broke. It actually broke down on a test drive... I was debating stripping it for parts before I put it on the market. I think the car might have just decided for itself that it would rather be ripped apart than sold because I'm not sure I'm willing to put much more time and money Into a car I'm only going to get a grand or two for on a sale. I'll sleep on it. But I'm not sure I am willing to go much further with this repair as the car is worth more dead than alive...
I bleed the system v-8 archies way and tested the slave cylinder travel and only got somewhere in the area of 3/4" of travel.
quote
Originally posted by McCool:
Since my last post I have installed a dickman master cylinder and re-bled the system with well over a liter of dot3 using both a vacuum and pressure bleed (archie style). There is no air in the system, I am sure of it. The master cylinder is getting full travel of the banjo rod...
And how much travel are you now getting at the slave?
Here is a video if you'd like to see. The red marks are a 1/2" apart. So somewhere between 3/4" to 1" of travel.
Is the travel of the master cylinder supposed to be 1:1 with the slave? I have the old master out of the car, and when I manually push on the rod I can get 1.5" of travel, but the new one in the car bottoms out at just shy of 1" which is what I'm getting at the slave. There is plenty of pedal room left go further but it's like the pedal hits a wall. I assumed that this was because the master reached full travel, but now I am not so sure...
[This message has been edited by McCool (edited 06-19-2019).]
As has been mentioned, that's not enough travel to disengage the clutch. It needs to be more like 17/16".
Another thing to check for is to make sure that the clutch safety switch isn't misadjusted and preventing the clutch pedal from coming all the way up. The clutch pedal should be sitting 1" higher than the brake pedal.
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Originally posted by McCool:
Is the travel of the master cylinder supposed to be 1:1 with the slave?
I can't swear to it, but I believe the master and slave for the 4-spd are same diameter. One mod that several people over the years have reported doing is to use a slave from an Isuzu 5-spd on their Muncie 4-spd. The Isuzu slave has a slightly smaller diameter bore, therefore it moves a bit more with the same distance stroke of the master.
[EDIT] After re-reading this thread, I discovered that Larry had already mentioned the Isuzu slave trick.
quote
Originally posted by Larryinkc:
I have a Getrag 5 speed behind a Series III 3800 and used one of Rodneys Isuzu slave cylinders, smaller bore size, and like the way it reduces the amount of pedal travel necessary to disengage the clutch. Shifts are better, less chance of clutch drag when shifting...
Larry also included some very good links. In one of the discussions, it was also mentioned that if the slave push-rod was too short, that it was possible for the slave to reach the far end of its travel before the clutch was disengaged. That would give the same feeling as the pedal "hitting a wall". I'm curious... when your clutch is at rest, with the bleeder loosened, how far can you push the slave back into its bore? You basically want a slave push-rod that's as long as possible without it putting any pressure on the clutch fork at rest.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-20-2019).]
I am not sure that's correct about the Isuzu vs Muncie slaves being different. All auto parts stores list them as being the same part for the 85 and 86 L4 VIN R with Isuzu transmission and 85 and 86 V6 VIN 9 with Muncie transmission.
McCool, do you know how long the slave pushrod is? Once before, someone on this forum had similar problems with disengagement and we found that the slave pushrod was too short. That was actually what was causing the bottoming out. The pushrod should be approximately 5 1/2 inches long. The Getrag pushrod is about 2 inches shorter. I'm not sure about the pushrod for the 84 L4 Muncie but that year uses an entirely different slave and possibly a different pushrod.
Another question. Are the slave studs an integral part of the slave cylinder? The 4-speed slave should have the studs bradded into the slave flange and the studs point toward the engine.
Another thing to check for is to make sure that the clutch safety switch isn't misadjusted and preventing the clutch pedal from coming all the way up. The clutch pedal should be sitting 1" higher than the brake pedal.
I adjusted the banjo to the furthest up is could possibly go so the clutch pedal is 1.5" above the brake. I actually had to adjust the clutch safety switch lower after the install of the Dickman master because when depressing the clutch all the way, it wasn't enough to reach the switch. So that isn't the issue either.
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how far can you push the slave back into its bore? You basically want a slave push-rod that's as long as possible without it putting any pressure on the clutch fork at rest.
I can push it in roughly an inch though its hard to measure because while doing that I am more concerned with not letting the rod go forward before I've shut the bleeder. I bench tested the old slave and from start to end of travel its good for something like 3" so I would be surprised if I was bottoming out the slave.
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McCool, do you know how long the slave pushrod is?
I measured this while I had it out actually, it's approx. 5.5" long.
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Are the slave studs an integral part of the slave cylinder?
Yes, they were pressed into the flange of the slave cylinder and were pointing in the same direction as the slave rod.
I'm really starting to think this problem is something to do with the fork, or clutch plate system itself...
I am not sure that's correct about the Isuzu vs Muncie slaves being different. All auto parts stores list them as being the same part for the 85 and 86 L4 VIN R with Isuzu transmission and 85 and 86 V6 VIN 9 with Muncie transmission.
Wouldn't be the first time that parts catalogs might be wrong. There are two different Fiero slave bore sizes.
I can push it (the slave) in roughly an inch though its hard to measure because while doing that I am more concerned with not letting the rod go forward before I've shut the bleeder.
Vice grips on the rod, a wedge shaped piece of wood inserted between the rod and clutch fork. Easy peasy.
Patrick, I think there are 3 bore sizes. The 84 slave is one of it's own, then the Isuzu and the Getrag. And I agree that there are a few mistakes in the parts listings for our Fieros.
In 1993 when I bought my first Fiero, I had to have the clutch replaced within a year. Through fault of the garage, my transmission exploded and I found an Isuzu from an 86, along with everything needed for the swap. It was the same slave that I had on the Muncie. None of the parts stores list a different part number for the slaves. I haven't and don't have the time at the moment to check the P22 to see if there is any differentiation. Maybe someone can check that out.
Meanwhile, I'm off to Carlisle and will return too late to help McCool.
Edit: I had a moment to look at the P22 Parts Book.
Slave Cylinder Part Numbers by year and transmission
84--10026326 I assume no transmission code was given here because there was only one available. 85-88--MT2, M17--10035044 87-88--MG2--10038878
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 06-20-2019).]
I'm going to remove the slave cylinder from it's mount in order to test the travel of the clutch pedal and the slave cylinder. My reasoning is, with the slave cylinder disconnected from the arm, there should be no reason for the clutch pedal to not be able to travel further and thus, increase travel on the slave cylinder.
If, With the slave cylinder removed, I get less than 1" of travel, the problem lies somewhere between the clutch pedal and the slave cylinder and I neer to drive deeper into problems I thought I've fixed.
Assuming I have no air in the system, which I am confident of. If I get more than 1" of travel, then I should try adding in a longer rod to the slave cylinder and reinstall the slave. If at this point, I still am unable to get more than 1" of movement at the slave rod, the problem has something to do with the Arm/fork/throw out bearing/diaphragm/clutch plate.
I'm going to remove the slave cylinder from it's mount in order to test the travel of the clutch pedal and the slave cylinder. My reasoning is, with the slave cylinder disconnected from the arm, there should be no reason for the clutch pedal to not be able to travel further and thus, increase travel on the slave cylinder.
Although it may appear obvious (but I'll mention it anyway)... with the clutch fork no longer pushing against the slave, you'll need to be manually pushing the slave piston in to measure its travel distance when the clutch pedal is depressed. Otherwise, the piston will position itself at the very end of its outward travel.
It might actually be easier doing this test with the slave still installed, but with the factory push-rod removed. Temporarily use as short of a rod as you can, just to make the measurement with... but again, you'll need to manually push the piston all the way in.
With the slave disconnected and a helper holding the rod depressed fully within the slave, I still am only able to get 1" of travel on the master cylinder banjo and therefore the slave cylinder only travels 1".
I even disconnected the banjo from the pedal and pushed it by hand.... only 1" of movement on both the master and slave... what the heck is going on?
Since my last post I have installed a dickman master cylinder...
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Originally posted by McCool:
I even disconnected the banjo from the pedal and pushed it by hand.... only 1" of movement on both the master and slave... what the heck is going on?
Other than the Isuzu slave trick (which fierofool has basically stated doesn't apply to the Muncie 4-spd), I'm out of ideas. I suggest you send Rodney Dickman an email... and either explain the situation to him, or simply bring this thread to his attention.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-23-2019).]
This thread has caught my curiosity. How did this problem develop? I had a similar issue that was temporarily resolved by repeatedly pumping the clutch pedal. This clearly worked out to be a bad slave. No real evidence of fluid at that end, I just kind of got lucky when I searched and picked the most likely issue. Rodney Dickman's replacement immediately resolved it.
Secondly, what happens when you start the car in neutral and attempt to shift into first? Our 88 formula (a different scenario from the first paragraph) would give us a crazy rattling at full clutch pedal travel, courtesy of a bent fork and very loose TO bearing. We had to replace the fork, bearings, and clutch when it finally bombed.
Having read this thread a few times, I would suspect a bad fork and misplaced TO bearing. In our case, the rattling wasn't there every single time, but would pop up randomly.
Viperine, oddly, a local member just had his Formula's clutch kit, clutch fork and bushing/bearing, slave and master cylinder replaced. Full depression of the pedal won't allow the transmission to be put into gear if the engine is running. It also vibrates and rattles when he fully depresses it. He said it works perfectly if he only depresses it part way. All of it is from The Fiero Store.
I had ordered parts from Summit. I used a basic LUK clutch kit, and regretfully ordered an ATP fork (my formula was an auto converted to a 91 or 92 getrag) which turned out to be absolute junk. A pioneer fork was ordered to replace it.
I never found fork bushings and we actually we're forced to machine the original brass bushings because they were too small. Found that strange.
When we bought our formula, the PO had no idea about the rattle, but had never really depressed the clutch pedal fully.
I knew it would eventually bite us in the butt. It didn't take very long. The springs that supposedly help hold the TO bearing are tough to track down and so we researched to see that they aren't really needed.
Car shifts like brand new now. The old fork was definitely bent just enough that it barely held the old TO bearing.
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Originally posted by fierofool:
Viperine, oddly, a local member just had his Formula's clutch kit, clutch fork and bushing/bearing, slave and master cylinder replaced. Full depression of the pedal won't allow the transmission to be put into gear if the engine is running. It also vibrates and rattles when he fully depresses it. He said it works perfectly if he only depresses it part way. All of it is from The Fiero Store.
I suggest you send Rodney Dickman an email... and either explain the situation to him, or simply bring this thread to his attention.
I talked to Rodney, He said that the travel I am getting on the master and slave cylinder is about right, and if the clutch plate is still making contact at this point, the problem lies somewhere after the slave. He recommended what others have in the thread, take off the arm and have a good look at it. So that's my next step.
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Originally posted by viperine
How did this problem develop?
suddenly and without warning... it just stopped shifting mid drive.
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I remember it like it was yesterday. 
