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1988GT LF3 / F40 Build by msweldon
Started on: 02-05-2019 05:49 PM
Replies: 25 (474 views)
Last post by: Daryl M on 03-28-2019 04:03 PM
msweldon
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Report this Post02-05-2019 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This swap will share quite a bit with Daryl M's LFX build, although he is several steps ahead of me as well as having much more free time to work on it than I....

Just getting into this by testing vertical clearances last night into the cradle after removal of the coolant base oil cooler and to see if the stock front mount bracket needs to be 86'd...

Did some initial vertical sizing up of the LF3/F40 combo last night...












[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 02-05-2019).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-05-2019 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

What a great swap! I will be watching with great interest. What version of F40 are you using?

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Report this Post02-05-2019 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looks like a fun swap!

Does the oil pan have an oil pan?
I also noticed we have the same tastes in harbor freight floor jacks!

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msweldon
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Report this Post02-05-2019 09:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

What a great swap! I will be watching with great interest. What version of F40 are you using?


2008 Saab 9-3 2.8T V6

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msweldon
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Report this Post02-05-2019 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Looks like a fun swap!

Does the oil pan have an oil pan?
I also noticed we have the same tastes in harbor freight floor jacks!


Yeah..the pan has a pan...real PITA since I can't set the motor down on concrete to level it with the cradle without crushing it....

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-06-2019 10:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Does the center axle shaft bearing carrier line up with the F40? What is the carrier from?

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msweldon
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Report this Post02-06-2019 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Does the center axle shaft bearing carrier line up with the F40? What is the carrier from?


The carrier bearing bracket is from the same Saab 9-3 turbo v6 or LP1 which is more or less the same block as ours.. For the LFX it should bolt up perfectly to the block, as was my ASSumption for the LF3, however on the LF3 the leftmost bolt hole in the bracket lands right on the turbo oil drain tube flange. I had to cut off the third mount hole to get it mated for axle alignment etc...

The stock lf3/xts bracket does not work nor does any other carrier bracket from an automatic AFAIK.

Debating on building a lower support bracket for the Saab bracket or cutting up the xts bracket and building a plate steel adapter to the block. Leaning toward the Saab bracket as everything lines up great now just need additional support.

Fyi, I tried a gmc Acadia motor mount carrier combo mount and although it bolts up the alignment once again is for an automatic.

Also, using the beefy cobalt turbo axles to handle the power this should produce....just have to swap out the axle stubs first

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mmeyer86gt/gtp
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Report this Post02-06-2019 11:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mmeyer86gt/gtpClick Here to Email mmeyer86gt/gtpSend a Private Message to mmeyer86gt/gtpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

when you float the engine for mounts i used 2x4 and then pulled the 2x4's when i built the mounts.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-06-2019 01:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by mmeyer86gt/gtp:

when you float the engine for mounts i used 2x4 and then pulled the 2x4's when i built the mounts.


I used the blocks from the giant Jenga game I made for the grandkids out of 2x4s . worked great to block the motor/tranny in place. I also made a custom dolly for the cradle out of scrap steel to role the thing under the car.

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Report this Post02-06-2019 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:


Yeah..the pan has a pan...real PITA since I can't set the motor down on concrete to level it with the cradle without crushing it....


I am sure you have some old Fiero sway bar links sitting around somewhere. Cut about 6 or 8 of them flush with the secondary pan and get longer oil pan bolts. Make some stands that protrude slightly below the pan. Weld some 1 x 1/8" bar between them to help stabilize them if needed.

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Report this Post02-23-2019 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just to put the bed any hopes of utilizing the Cobalt Turbo axles with an F40 swap of either swapping the fiero cups onto the end or even resplining the axle ends...

1.) The cobalt star/cage/balls will not fit into the fiero outboard axle stub housing... the cobalt cage is slightly larger and the balls are a few millimeters larger in diameter.

2.) Here's the 'real' goocher..... after number one above was fully realized I took some measurements on the cobalt vs fiero axle stub ends to make sure the cobalt axle can be resplined.... The fiero splined end is 26.5mm.. the cobalt splined is several mm thicker but is only half as far down the shaft as the fiero splining... behind the cobalt splining, further down the shaft where the fiero splining would be cut.. the cobalt axle necks down to 25.5mm so the end of the cobal axle cannot be splined to that of the fiero..... what a waste of some seriously stout axles......

The cobalt turbo axles 'can' be obtained to fit the fiero if one were to order the GMPP Cobalt Wheel Hop kit but that's $800... might as well get the LSJ stage 2 axles from the driveshaftshop for that amount of coin...

The cobalt parts are all in the lower part of each image...











Looking into the G6/Saturn Aura axles like joseph upson, saab 9-3/9-5 axles

Saab 9-3 or 9-5 axles and respline the end for the fiero…

Or go with Dutch Axle / drive shaft shop to cut some duplicates of the cobalt turbo axles splined for the fiero outboard cups...

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-23-2019 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

Just to put the bed any hopes of utilizing the Cobalt Turbo axles with an F40 swap of either swapping the fiero cups onto the end or even resplining the axle ends...

1.) The cobalt star/cage/balls will not fit into the fiero outboard axle stub housing... the cobalt cage is slightly larger and the balls are a few millimeters larger in diameter.

2.) Here's the 'real' goocher..... after number one above was fully realized I took some measurements on the cobalt vs fiero axle stub ends to make sure the cobalt axle can be resplined.... The fiero splined end is 26.5mm.. the cobalt splined is several mm thicker but is only half as far down the shaft as the fiero splining... behind the cobalt splining, further down the shaft where the fiero splining would be cut.. the cobalt axle necks down to 25.5mm so the end of the cobal axle cannot be splined to that of the fiero..... what a waste of some seriously stout axles......

The cobalt turbo axles 'can' be obtained to fit the fiero if one were to order the GMPP Cobalt Wheel Hop kit but that's $800... might as well get the LSJ stage 2 axles from the driveshaftshop for that amount of coin...

The cobalt parts are all in the lower part of each image...











Looking into the G6/Saturn Aura axles like joseph upson, saab 9-3/9-5 axles

Saab 9-3 or 9-5 axles and respline the end for the fiero…

Or go with Dutch Axle / drive shaft shop to cut some duplicates of the cobalt turbo axles splined for the fiero outboard cups...


Part number GM8217 from rockauto was a bolt in on my project. Have you checked it?

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msweldon
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Report this Post02-23-2019 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


Part number GM8217 from rockauto was a bolt in on my project. Have you checked it?


Yes... however, I'm looking for something a bit more stout to handle the LF3 output.... and the GM8217's used by the supercharged cobalt was known to snap at stock tq levels....

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 02-23-2019).]

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Report this Post03-26-2019 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Axle update... It looks like I'll be able to use the Cobalt SS Turbo axles after all... The Cobalt axles should be able to be resplined to fit the manual G6 outboard inner race as the G6 circlip is on the end of the axle like the Cobalt axles. OD and ID of the Cobal axle outboard end vs the G6 inner race work out with 1 mm to spare. Cobalt axles sent off to Hudlow Axle in North Georgia for resplining.


Ok... Vendor woes...

First, I know several PFF members have utilized California Clutch / Clutchnet over the years, including myself for a stage 1 clutch on a Mazda 6 restore I completed last year. However for my LF3/F40 build I ordered a saab 9-3 2.8T V6 billet solid flywheel, pressure plate, and 6 puck sprung clutch back at the beginning of January. I was initially told 10 business days for delivery and after 3 conversations where each time I was told 'next friday' or 'just waiting on the flywheel' during February, Oleg at Clutchnet has gone radio silent on me. Will not return calls/messages.. no status updates... nothing... I know he's there as one Friday after I left a message around mid afternoon I had a friend immediately call him up and leave a message about how he was interested in a new clutch/pp/fw and he immediately returned his call.

I noticed on the web that a few others have had similar experiences online recently and a few similar posts at the BBB.

Anyone else had this type of experience with ClutchNet recently?

On another Vendor issue..
I had been dealing with AlphaFabIndustries/Motorsports out of MI as they advertised a complete stand alone harness for the LF3 retuned E92 ECU, including all sensors for 1.5K$, spendy but that's a ton of time I could save on this build. Last fall I looked up their reviews, contacted them, asked them as many questions as I could about their business, turnaround time, etc.. and paid them in full last October for the harness and DBW throttle pedal. Then located and shipped them an XTS LF3 ECU to speed up their process. They do answer their phone, "IF" you know the extension and I called them every Friday to every other Friday since the end of January inquiring as to the status of the Harness.. Every time I got answer of, We'll get right back to you and call you back today, it'll be ready next Wednesday for shipment, etc..etc...

I contacted them to see if they'd be will to just back out of the deal, refund me my payment, and return my ECU. They jumped at the opportunity, apologized, took my card # for the refund and stated that the ECU would be shipped by that Friday. That was 10 business days ago......aaannnnnddddd you guessed it.......nothing... Called yesterday, asked to send in an email to get a response by the end of the day by the owner....nothing... emailed this morning... nothing.... They are alive and well as per their facebook page, doing quite well from what it seems...even moved to a larger shop.

I've got every email correspondence between us that backs up the story with AlphaFab.

Has anyone ever gone through the credit card charge back scenario with a vendor? Advice, pointers, etc?

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 03-26-2019).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post03-26-2019 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

What are you going to do for an ECU now?

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Report this Post03-26-2019 07:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

How does resplining work? Do they anneal, cut whatever they have to cut, and then re-harden? Or do they just cut the axle as-is?

I would avoid vendor #1, as if you're having communications problems with them before sending them a penny, after payment it could quickly degenerate into the situation you are presently experiencing with vendor #2.

Just about two weeks ago, my dad bought a brand-new car, and paid an extra fee to get the plus-sized mag wheels. When he got home with the new car, he noticed that the car had the standard-sized wheels. He kept calling the car dealer and getting the runaround, or being ignored.

After a week of this, he sent a letter (addressed to the salesman at the car dealer) threatening legal action if the problem could not be resolved... lo and behold the director of the dealer got back in touch with my dad right away, so we'll see how that goes...

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Report this Post03-26-2019 07:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

What are you going to do for an ECU now?


Roll up the sleeves, get a Cadillac ATS-V manual ECU and harness with Fuel Pump Control Module and get the whole thing running outside the car then customize the harness for the fiero bay...

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Daryl M
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Report this Post03-26-2019 09:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:


Roll up the sleeves, get a Cadillac ATS-V manual ECU and harness with Fuel Pump Control Module and get the whole thing running outside the car then customize the harness for the fiero bay...


You may want to contact Ryan at Sinister performance/GMTuners. He was great to work with and the price was fair, especially considering the good customer service I received. He reprogrammed my OEM ECU and sent a detailed set of wiring instructions.

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Report this Post03-27-2019 10:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ryan isnt taking on any new business at the moment..

Found a swap place in ohio that's already sold a few LF3 and lf4 stand alone setups so they're helping me out when I have questions for a small fee

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Report this Post03-27-2019 10:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

Ryan isnt taking on any new business at the moment..

Found a swap place in ohio that's already sold a few LF3 and lf4 stand alone setups so they're helping me out when I have questions for a small fee


Great! I am following your build with great interest. I'm curious to see how the turn is fit.

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msweldon
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Report this Post03-27-2019 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


Great! I am following your build with great interest. I'm curious to see how the turn is fit.


Turn?

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Report this Post03-27-2019 01:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

Axle update... It looks like I'll be able to use the Cobalt SS Turbo axles after all... The Cobalt axles should be able to be resplined to fit the manual G6 outboard inner race as the G6 circlip is on the end of the axle like the Cobalt axles. OD and ID of the Cobal axle outboard end vs the G6 inner race work out with 1 mm to spare. Cobalt axles sent off to Hudlow Axle in North Georgia for resplining.


Ok... Vendor woes...

First, I know several PFF members have utilized California Clutch / Clutchnet over the years, including myself for a stage 1 clutch on a Mazda 6 restore I completed last year. However for my LF3/F40 build I ordered a saab 9-3 2.8T V6 billet solid flywheel, pressure plate, and 6 puck sprung clutch back at the beginning of January. I was initially told 10 business days for delivery and after 3 conversations where each time I was told 'next friday' or 'just waiting on the flywheel' during February, Oleg at Clutchnet has gone radio silent on me. Will not return calls/messages.. no status updates... nothing... I know he's there as one Friday after I left a message around mid afternoon I had a friend immediately call him up and leave a message about how he was interested in a new clutch/pp/fw and he immediately returned his call.

I noticed on the web that a few others have had similar experiences online recently and a few similar posts at the BBB.

Anyone else had this type of experience with ClutchNet recently?

On another Vendor issue..
I had been dealing with AlphaFabIndustries/Motorsports out of MI as they advertised a complete stand alone harness for the LF3 retuned E92 ECU, including all sensors for 1.5K$, spendy but that's a ton of time I could save on this build. Last fall I looked up their reviews, contacted them, asked them as many questions as I could about their business, turnaround time, etc.. and paid them in full last October for the harness and DBW throttle pedal. Then located and shipped them an XTS LF3 ECU to speed up their process. They do answer their phone, "IF" you know the extension and I called them every Friday to every other Friday since the end of January inquiring as to the status of the Harness.. Every time I got answer of, We'll get right back to you and call you back today, it'll be ready next Wednesday for shipment, etc..etc...

I contacted them to see if they'd be will to just back out of the deal, refund me my payment, and return my ECU. They jumped at the opportunity, apologized, took my card # for the refund and stated that the ECU would be shipped by that Friday. That was 10 business days ago......aaannnnnddddd you guessed it.......nothing... Called yesterday, asked to send in an email to get a response by the end of the day by the owner....nothing... emailed this morning... nothing.... They are alive and well as per their facebook page, doing quite well from what it seems...even moved to a larger shop.

I've got every email correspondence between us that backs up the story with AlphaFab.

Has anyone ever gone through the credit card charge back scenario with a vendor? Advice, pointers, etc?



Really sorry to hear of such horrible experience with vendors. It seems the risks of dealing with alleged professionals regarding custom work is beginning to skyrocket. I had no idea one of the icons of custom performance John Hennessy, the goto for 1000 hp Vipers and Vettes is quickly re establishing himself as the scum of the performance aftermarket if what's being said can be believed (do a search), following some forum member's investigating a Hennessy CTS-V package on what is actually a V6 CTS that looks the look on the outside but, was about 400 hp and a few other items short underneath and on the inside.

My strong advice to you would be to send your desired inboard and outboard CV joints along with an axle that matches both spline patterns (if different) to Moser Racing and have a brand new pair of hardened axles made. Years back when I started with the F40, I had them make a pair of dual splined shaft nubs that fit the transmission splines and the Fiero female inboard joint cup. What I was not aware of at the time, is that two full length axles that would have connected the inboard F40 joint to the outboard Fiero joint would have cost the same. I realized that when later on I sent them a shaft to be cut and reground. It was ~$300 for the pair back in 2006.

Give it some thought because when you have a problem with a custom part, which I did, you can end up in a bind by having to shell out a lot more cash and deal with a wait time. You can easily replace a production joint, attached to a strong custom axle shaft, but if you damage a reground shaft, you have to start over. My reground shaft broke in the threaded area of the nut after it loosened, resulting in a terrible effort to locate a suitable replacement short shaft, because by then the parts stores had started importing new, low cost axles made in China that could not be disassembled for a chance at modification. A local transmission shop was not able to remove the outboard bearing hub with a 10k press, after I removed the joint cup with a plasma cutter.

If you decide to go with new axle shafts from Moser, be sure to tell them not to cut the snap ring groove to deep, they cut mine just like that found on the rear wheel drive axles which was too deep, so when I unwittingly assembled the axle, the outboard joint was locked on permanently from the ring moving away from centric, or the bordering spline edges not being chamfered, or both. I needed another G6 axle and Fiero passenger side manual axle which was stronger than the auto axles and fit the G6 outboard joint hub to combine into one.

You may also want to contact Nick Taliaferro https://www.genuinesaab.com/psi/index.htm He's the Saab Specialist that told me what my clutch and flywheel combo was just by looking at the pictures of the internals of the F40 that I crunched. He should have info you can use and would probably be far more reputable than what you appear to be experiencing now.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 03-27-2019).]

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msweldon
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Report this Post03-27-2019 07:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Joseph,

I read through your F40 axle saga many many times... and gave hudlow axle specific instructions and measurements about what I wanted...

My problems and woes are not with my axles, as hudlow axles knows their stuff and can also cut custom axles as well, but rather clutchnet for my clutch/pp/fw as well as the other vendor, Alpha Fab Industries, with the harness...

Thanks for the information about Hennessy....wow...just wow...

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Report this Post03-27-2019 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:


Turn?


Turbos. I hate autocorrect.

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msweldon
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Report this Post03-28-2019 09:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


Turbos. I hate autocorrect.



Oh...they won't fit...going with single turbo over transmission like the LP9 hfv6 gm made for Saab on the 9-3 turbo

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Report this Post03-28-2019 04:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That's a shame. The twins work well.

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