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LK9+F40 (Saab turbo LSJ) swap by KillerFrogg
Started on: 03-26-2018 09:36 PM
Replies: 58 (2386 views)
Last post by: 86FieroCentPa on 03-25-2020 05:47 PM
FieroWannaBe
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Report this Post07-01-2019 09:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KillerFrogg:


Second image is the one I am going to get a quote on having it printed in AL or a high temp plastic. Shapeways list a plastic rated at 175 *C. That would be ok on an N/A setup but since i'm turbo, and this part is before the intercooler so I have to be mindful of that, but 350F seems high for a reasonably turbo setup.
Sim shows basically no meaningful deflection. 0.04mm at worst. Stress visualization colors auto scale so it looks worse than it is. Highly over built but I'm ok with that.



Do the math you might be surprised.

Tout = [Tin + Tin x [-1+(Pout/Pin)0.263]]/efficiency

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KillerFrogg
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Report this Post07-01-2019 09:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KillerFroggClick Here to Email KillerFroggSend a Private Message to KillerFroggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Quick math says 348*F, @25psi & 70% efficiency. Yeah right on the edge to say the least. Ill have to think about that. I had figured 300-325. Realistically 25psi past where I want to be, but blowing out or melting an intake from the inside is something the engine and my wallet can live with out having happen.

Finally rolled over to page two!
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KillerFrogg
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Report this Post07-03-2019 11:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KillerFroggClick Here to Email KillerFroggSend a Private Message to KillerFroggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Quick photo dump.
Tore the head apart to inspect valves as recommended previously and install new valve steam seals.
A lift. God. I am so happy we finally put on in the family barn. It has already paid for its self in the time saved with repairs to other cars in the family fleet. No more sketch lift arch. Still it worked well so its stashed behind the barn for later bastardization and abuse for other things.

3D printing a fit up prototype throttle body adapter. Half of gen 2, first 1/4 printed way too fast and nasty, 2nd stopped right at the end due to power flicker during a storm yesterday.
Gen 3 printed much nicer, and faster actually with some setting tweaks. First 1/4 done, second 1/4 on the printer. My printer is small and not that fast so had to split it up, and the big parts take 4-6 hours, but its a set it and forget it so that's nice.
















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KillerFrogg
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Report this Post07-06-2019 09:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KillerFroggClick Here to Email KillerFroggSend a Private Message to KillerFroggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Engine build up is just about done. Got a lot done yesterday. A few little things left there and there but good enough to get it on the cradle and make mounts and start fitting it in the car. Today installing clutch assembly, trans, getting the old 2.5 off the cradle and starting to get this in its place.

Fitted up with Cobalt S/C intake manifold and new alternator that clears said manifold. No idea what that alternator is off of. Got it through ZZP. Kind of annoyed it does not have the one way clutch on it the original Saab alternator did and I unfortunately can not swap it over because the offset is different. Not a big deal though.


Water manifold on the intake for the air-water intercooler visible. Going to pull those hose barbs out and modify them so they point toward the back of the engine to not have to worry about clearance issues with the water lines and the cabin firewall. Also visible is the oil cooler that comes on all factory turbo/SC Ecotech engines.


Back of the engine mostly to show the rotated turbo with the temporary flange adapter I printed. Exhaust outlet now points to the passanger side of the car, air inlet is dirvers side, compressor outlet points straight up. Much better for piping layout.


And the good stuff. The 3d printed throttle body adapter. MMMmmm looks really good. Only a little disappointed it is on the back of the engine and wont be all that visible. Will need a throttle and cruise cable bracket so its only going to get messier. This will make piping really nice and clean. Just one vaguely U shaped pipe from the back of the engine over the trans and to the TB.




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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post07-06-2019 01:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I hope that when you did your FEA of the 3D-printed intake piece, you used the degraded material properties (less stiff, less strong) of the plastic at high temperature... a reminder if you didn't.

It is not like the properties are flat from room temp to 175 °F, then they drop off a cliff. Also, you're using deflection in the middle as a design criteria, rather than stress?

That double-hump thing looks like it could be replicated with metal (steel or aluminium) tubing, welded onto the inlet and outlet flanges.

I'd also run some more analyses to see if the small mounting ears up top are stiff enough; looks like they would flex, and that the gasket in the middle would not be adequately compressed.
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KillerFrogg
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Report this Post07-06-2019 01:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KillerFroggClick Here to Email KillerFroggSend a Private Message to KillerFroggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Those studies were done in a generalized aluminum more as a "am i grosly underestimating anything".I plan on having it printed in aluminum, and i need to nix the tabs to fit the build volume anyway. The original supercharger mounts in the same way, and the base flange is 10mm thick. And yes it could be fabricated, but its a 8+ hour job between the two flanges and the welding. The shapeways Al prints come out comparable to castings and would only need holes drilled to size and tapped, then a bit of time with a belt sander to clean up the two flange surfaces. Their high temp plastics were appealing because of a larger build volume but the temp safety margin is a bit tight for me.
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KillerFrogg
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Report this Post07-07-2019 09:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KillerFroggClick Here to Email KillerFroggSend a Private Message to KillerFroggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got the quote for getting the intake printed adapter printed. That is going to be a hard NOPE. $3500. Eh oh well. Fabbed it is!
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Will
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Report this Post07-07-2019 09:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was wondering where you were going to get metal printed cheaply enough for a Fiero project...
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86FieroCentPa
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Report this Post03-02-2020 06:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86FieroCentPaClick Here to Email 86FieroCentPaSend a Private Message to 86FieroCentPaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just thought I'd take a moment to bump this and see if there's been any updates. Looks like we're both doing very similar swaps; LK9/LSJ and F40 with Haltech standalone ECM.

Here
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KillerFrogg
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Report this Post03-02-2020 10:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KillerFroggClick Here to Email KillerFroggSend a Private Message to KillerFroggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Still here and still working on it!

Since I had last posted I haven't made a ton of progress but its till going slow and steady. Not long after I made my last post I hurt my self working on the car, a grinder got away from me and got my leg on the way into orbit and I ended up with 8 stitches and 13 staples. Had to put things on hold for a bit while that healed up and I got a bandsaw instead. Got about a week to work on the car then schedule at work got crazy and I have been working 6 days a week + overtime some days almost every week since.
Since then I have the engine/trans mounted to the cradle, using custom mounts.
I don't recall if I had posted but I have the axles and about 75% of the fuel system in hand, just need the regulator and lines/fittings.
Axles are factory SS/SC cobalt axles. The inside spline fits the F40 and the outside fits the Fiero spline and they are so close to the correct length that it doesn't mater.
Using an AEM E-85 rated pump + 60lb injectors. Fuel pump hanger had to be modified a bit for the new pump but i think it can be made to work as is. Made some changes to the factory fuel rail as well just to clean up the hose routing as well as remove the restriction from the stock regulator.

Building on the last few posts here, I am getting the throttle body adapter CnC'd in the next week or so. More on that later.

For now progress will be slow till winter is over and my family unpacks the barn and I can get back the space I need to start working on things again.
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Will
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Report this Post03-03-2020 08:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KillerFrogg:

a grinder got away from me and got my leg on the way into orbit and I ended up with 8 stitches and 13 staples.


That beats my best grinder injury story.
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Report this Post03-03-2020 06:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KillerFrogg:

Building on the last few posts here, I am getting the throttle body adapter CnC'd in the next week or so. More on that later.



the other option would be to use your print as a mold and have the part cast, something like that doesn't appear to be too far outside of the real of possibility for a small casting operation.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post03-04-2020 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

the other option would be to use your print as a mold and have the part cast, something like that doesn't appear to be too far outside of the real of possibility for a back yard casting operation.



FTFY
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Report this Post03-04-2020 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


FTFY


back yard is also accurate, I'm fairly confident that I could pull it off with my small furnace and some slight changes to the pattern.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post03-05-2020 12:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Let me know what ZZP says about the axle with the reluctor wheel with sensor... they would not sell the individual parts for this to me when I inquired a little over a year ago for my LF3/LF4 with saab F40 swap. DarylM went with shrink wrapped magnets and a hall sensor on his saab intermediate shaft. I'm going with a Davies Industries reluctor wheel bored out to fit the intermediate shaft and the factory VSS.

Let me know if you need more information on the Davies reluctor wheel.

M
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KillerFrogg
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Report this Post03-18-2020 12:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KillerFroggClick Here to Email KillerFroggSend a Private Message to KillerFroggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86FieroCentPa:

Just thought I'd take a moment to bump this and see if there's been any updates. Looks like we're both doing very similar swaps; LK9/LSJ and F40 with Haltech standalone ECM.

Here


Cool to see someone else doing something very similar. Lots of progress in a short time as well. Plans for your speedo? The Haltech will drive the tach no big deal i believe, though I don't remember if I tested that actually.
As I type this i'm ordering some parts to put together a converter circuit to to go from the single ended output form one of the Haltech outputs to a +-12v signal to drive the factory speedo. I'll do a post about it once it get it working.

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


the other option would be to use your print as a mold and have the part cast



It did cross my mind but I have no experience with casting, and would have to put it on a mill anyway to face the mounting surfaces. And I expect to have to modify it as well, I know at the very least it needs a bracket for the throttle cable and I have no idea how or what the plan with that is yet. Welding on cast AL is not fun. I've got access to some CNC's and can get the part made for the cost of stock and tooling, then they will buy the tooling off me after if its still in good shape. + the bling of billet parts on the back of the engine no one will really be able to see lol.

 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

Let me know what ZZP says about the axle with the reluctor wheel with sensor...

M


Same answer for me when I talked to them when I ordered the a bunch of parts from them. Not a big deal just would have been a time saver. Really I just wanted their VSS sensor bracket but I can make that with out too much issue. The tone wheel I am just going to make when I get there, probably have it be a clamp on deal or something.

Next progress post will be short about the fuel hanger. Short one but its about all I have at the moment.
Removed the original pump holder and made a new bracket, and will post the drawings to go with it.

[This message has been edited by KillerFrogg (edited 03-18-2020).]

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ericjon262
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Report this Post03-19-2020 09:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KillerFrogg:
It did cross my mind but I have no experience with casting, and would have to put it on a mill anyway to face the mounting surfaces. And I expect to have to modify it as well, I know at the very least it needs a bracket for the throttle cable and I have no idea how or what the plan with that is yet. Welding on cast AL is not fun. I've got access to some CNC's and can get the part made for the cost of stock and tooling, then they will buy the tooling off me after if its still in good shape. + the bling of billet parts on the back of the engine no one will really be able to see lol.


you should add the cable bracket into your drawing and have it machined while you're at it.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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KillerFrogg
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Report this Post03-24-2020 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KillerFroggClick Here to Email KillerFroggSend a Private Message to KillerFroggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Messy post, but I figured id post now since its working. I'll drop another once I have things cleaned up and in its more permanent form.

The parts I ordered to work on the speedo came in so I dragged out the ECU and mess of a naked harness that goes with it.
Took some poking but did I did get one of the generic outputs to drive the speedo.

Last week when I was working on making a signal converter from scratch I was talking to another friend about some old robotics hardware.
Long story short we were talking about using RS232 vs RS485 for something and I remembered that RS232 is a zero crossing +-12v (or so) signal, exactly what the speedo needs to work correctly. Went looking at how the RS232 drivers work and their differential voltage from signal source generators blah blah blah.
A few googles later and ended up looking at a TTL to RS232 converter. Most that are at the top of searches are for arduino and are for 3.3 or 5v.
Found one on SparkFun that is voltage agnostic and will deal with just about what ever supply voltage you shove into it. Got some parts on order and got it in today.

The part is basically not documented at all so it took a bit to figure out even with as simple as it is, but as off label of a use as this is I'm not surprised.
But I did get it working 100%. There is one small issue but that is on the ECU and not the signal adapter. With how I have it setup right now as long as the ECU is on it outputs a 1hz pulse.
I think would add ~5,4mi to the odometer per hour of car on while its not moving.

Ok back on track.
Here is the part from SprakFun
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8780
Needs 1 other parts to work, one 1uF 50v or 25v cap, I have a 50v in since thats what I have but its only 12v peak/peak so a 25v would be ok. It goes in between the output of the converter and the speedo.

Lots stuff bit bottom middle, I'm feeding in 60hz from the signal generator in my scope meter, I have the ECU calibrated to match, so it thinks its going 54mph to match the calibration of the original sender on the Fiero. This will change once the setup is in the car with the actual tone wheel that needs to be mounted to the jack shaft. Its outputting a 60hz signal to the converter, and its doing its job and driving the speedo at 54mph. Tested from 1hz all the way up to the 127hz max that the speedo will take and it works cleanly all the way through.




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86FieroCentPa
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Report this Post03-25-2020 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86FieroCentPaClick Here to Email 86FieroCentPaSend a Private Message to 86FieroCentPaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's a pretty ingenious setup; I haven't even started thinking too hard about how I'll drive the dashboard with my Haltech. Definitely filing this one away for future use.
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