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250 WHP Supernatural 3.4 Build by La fiera
Started on: 10-07-2017 11:04 PM
Replies: 250 (6695 views)
Last post by: Blacktree on 12-03-2018 10:55 PM
turbo 3800
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Report this Post10-25-2017 06:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for turbo 3800Send a Private Message to turbo 3800Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Details on heads? More up close pics of ports? How about parts used? Larger valves? Flow numbers? Who ported the heads?

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Will
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Report this Post10-25-2017 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

I don't know if I mentioned it yet but I'm working on a set of 3500 aluminium heads to complement that bottom end I just
mentioned and my goal for that set up is 300+ WHP.



If you want naturally aspirated power, start with a 3900. End of story. Biggest bore and best heads ever put on a 60 degree V6, roller cam, no replacement for displacement.

 
quote
Originally posted by Francis T:

I would suggest limiting your targeted peak power to around 5k - 5.5k RPM if you have an iron crankshaft, especially with a 3.4 - which is a stroked 2.8- too much reciprocating mass.

I got lucky - cost me $110- and brought one of the last -discontinued- Eagle STEEL crankshafts, else I would not have built my 2.8 for high RPM use.
BTW Venola makes good forged pistons that are priced good.


Almost all stock 60 degree V6 bottom ends will go to 7k just fine. The early 2.8's without the lead-in grooves to the crankshaft oil passages are the only exception.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-25-2017).]

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La fiera
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Report this Post10-25-2017 10:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hello will! I didn't mentioned it before but I want to keep the "stock " long block look. I'm working on a 3.7 liter using the stock Camaro block.
I know, I know, I can hear all the talk but you'll see it after is done. And I decided to stay with the iron heads because I want to keep the "stock"
looking long block. And my goal is still 300WHP. Hard to swallow but I love challenges.

I'll be selling the 3500 aluminum heads. They are being developed right now $1000 shipped Anybody?
Flow numbers will come soon.

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La fiera
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Report this Post10-25-2017 10:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by turbo 3800:

Details on heads? More up close pics of ports? How about parts used? Larger valves? Flow numbers? Who ported the heads?


That's the kind of information that can't be disclosed like I mentioned on m first post.
The only thing I can tell you is that is not about how much they flow, its about the length of time of "that" flow.

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lou_dias
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Report this Post10-26-2017 12:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Hello will!

I was wondering how long it would take before some pundits would tell you you're doing it wrong. LMFAO!
Clearly you're doing it wrong if you're making mode hp than a stock 3900 with the world's greatest factory heads...

You'll have to tell me how you're going to coax 3.7L out of your other block though...

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turbo 3800
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Report this Post10-26-2017 01:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for turbo 3800Send a Private Message to turbo 3800Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

I was wondering how long it would take before some pundits would tell you you're doing it wrong. LMFAO!
Clearly you're doing it wrong if you're making mode hp than a stock 3900 with the world's greatest factory heads...

.


Yea but la fiera still makes 25+ hp less than a near equally modified lx9. Lx9 wasn't fully rebuilt to race specs like la fiera. That's a fact.

Cam swap and 75 mm tb on a 3900 through an auto did 240 whp through an automatic. That's about 300 crank with 2 mods.

Claim you want to keep it stock looking but not with that intake manifold on it sticking out through the decklid.

You already made 240 whp so 10 more should be there.

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Tony Kania
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Report this Post10-26-2017 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Some men prefer blondes, other brunettes.

I love the cleanliness of this build. While not as interesting, I too have a very clean block on my engine stand. It is a Ford, but just as shiny.

Carry on. This is a nice thread to watch.

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La fiera
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Report this Post10-26-2017 02:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by turbo 3800:


Yea but la fiera still makes 25+ hp less than a near equally modified lx9. Lx9 wasn't fully rebuilt to race specs like la fiera. That's a fact.

Cam swap and 75 mm tb on a 3900 through an auto did 240 whp through an automatic. That's about 300 crank with 2 mods.

Claim you want to keep it stock looking but not with that intake manifold on it sticking out through the decklid.

You already made 240 whp so 10 more should be there.


Now that's an unfair comparison, the LX9 has 500cc' over in displacement, better intake and heads that flow way better than the 3.4 and the advantage of the roller cam.
So that engine you mentioned with 2 mods that made 240WHP, in reality it has 6 mods over the L32.
A bone stock LX9 is about 165WHP and a bone stock L32 is about 135-140WHP.
I don't know if you know but with the 2.8 I had previous to the 3.4, I was able to squeeze 173WHP @ 6000RPM.., more than a stock LX9.

The best part of having the stock appearing long block with an intake sticking out of the decklid is the look of peoples faces, specially at the track.
They spec to see a SBC, 4.9, LS4 or something else.
I respect and admire peoples engine swaps because they give their Fiero a unique personality and soul. The car becomes a living creature with a new name and attitude and they display it proudly! The car now becomes a REAL Fiero!!


But for all fairness sake, I'll just keep my iron heads and keep charging forward.
After reaching my 250WHP goal, my next goal is to get those extras 25WHP to pass that nearly modified LX9 you mentioned.

Stay tuned!

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post10-26-2017 05:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


That's the kind of information that can't be disclosed like I mentioned on m first post.
The only thing I can tell you is that is not about how much they flow, its about the length of time of "that" flow.


Are you worried about someone on the board making their Fiero quicker than yours?

Why does the sauce need to be kept secret?

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turbo 3800
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Report this Post10-26-2017 06:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for turbo 3800Send a Private Message to turbo 3800Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


Now that's an unfair comparison, the LX9 has 500cc' over in displacement, better intake and heads that flow way better than the 3.4 and the advantage of the roller cam.
So that engine you mentioned with 2 mods that made 240WHP, in reality it has 6 mods over the L32.
A bone stock LX9 is about 165WHP and a bone stock L32 is about 135-140WHP.
I don't know if you know but with the 2.8 I had previous to the 3.4, I was able to squeeze 173WHP @ 6000RPM.., more than a stock LX9.

The best part of having the stock appearing long block with an intake sticking out of the decklid is the look of peoples faces, specially at the track.
They spec to see a SBC, 4.9, LS4 or something else.
I respect and admire peoples engine swaps because they give their Fiero a unique personality and soul. The car becomes a living creature with a new name and attitude and they display it proudly! The car now becomes a REAL Fiero!!


But for all fairness sake, I'll just keep my iron heads and keep charging forward.
After reaching my 250WHP goal, my next goal is to get those extras 25WHP to pass that nearly modified LX9 you mentioned.

Stay tuned!



The lx9 is a 3.5 liter. The lz9 is a 3.9. Yes the lz9 has more displacement but I wouldn't call it unfair. Formula1 engines are smaller than an lx9 and make more power n\a.

Swapped Lx9 is into fiero and Cavaliers have made 180-200 whp. Simple mod like freeing up intake with a pipe and filter and larger diameter exhaust when swapped is something that has to be done anyways when swapped. There are dyno sheets out there of this I am sure. No other mods done. No cam headers or anything else. That's 60-70 hp more than an l32

Lx9 with stock compression, ported heads, camshaft gasket matched factory intake and a 65 mm tb made 35 more hp than the fully built iron head 3.4 and still did it on factory computer. Most modded 3.4 only do 160-180 whp though. Yours is much stronger than average.

A 3900 iron block still has a factory longblock look to it if you put iron heads on it. Then you get advantage of stock looking block with increased displacement and roller cam.

You could use a 3400 iron block and use a roller cam too you know. You are using a big mechanical while the lz9 uses a puny hydraulic.

Congrats on using iron heads and making 240 whp. Its a good accomplishment. But it could be more if you ditched the iron heads. That's the point Will was making. Since you want to sell your aluminum heads you willing to share the specs on those that you claim to have modded? Flow numbers? Valve size? Number of angle valvejob?

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La fiera
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Report this Post10-26-2017 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
[B]
A 3900 iron block still has a factory longblock look to it if you put iron heads on it. Then you get advantage of stock looking block with increased displacement and roller cam.

You could use a 3400 iron block and use a roller cam too you know. You are using a big mechanical while the lz9 uses a puny hydraulic.

Congrats on using iron heads and making 240 whp. Its a good accomplishment. But it could be more if you ditched the iron heads. That's the point Will was making. Since you want to sell your aluminum heads you willing to share the specs on those that you claim to have modded? Flow numbers? Valve size? Number of angle valvejob?


That's a good idea about using the 3900 block and use the iron heads! But then I have to get pistons to make up for the compression lost because of the chamber difference.

The reason I use a big mechanical cam is to make up for the lack of head flow of the iron heads.
And you are right, the LX9 does have a puny camshaft but the head flow makes up for the lack of lift and duration.

The 3500 heads are being made as of now. And for me to sell them I must have flow numbers and all the details otherwise I wont be able to sell them.
When they are ready I'll put them up in the mall.

And thank you very much for your suggestions, I really appreciate any suggestions from anybody.

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lou_dias
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Report this Post10-26-2017 10:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by turbo 3800:
The lx9 is a 3.5 liter. The lz9 is a 3.9. Yes the lz9 has more displacement but I wouldn't call it unfair. Formula1 engines are smaller than an lx9 and make more power n\a.

Swapped Lx9 is into fiero and Cavaliers have made 180-200 whp. Simple mod like freeing up intake with a pipe and filter and larger diameter exhaust when swapped is something that has to be done anyways when swapped. There are dyno sheets out there of this I am sure. No other mods done. No cam headers or anything else. That's 60-70 hp more than an l32

Lx9 with stock compression, ported heads, camshaft gasket matched factory intake and a 65 mm tb made 35 more hp than the fully built iron head 3.4 and still did it on factory computer. Most modded 3.4 only do 160-180 whp though. Yours is much stronger than average.

A 3900 iron block still has a factory longblock look to it if you put iron heads on it. Then you get advantage of stock looking block with increased displacement and roller cam.

You could use a 3400 iron block and use a roller cam too you know. You are using a big mechanical while the lz9 uses a puny hydraulic.

Congrats on using iron heads and making 240 whp. Its a good accomplishment. But it could be more if you ditched the iron heads. That's the point Will was making. Since you want to sell your aluminum heads you willing to share the specs on those that you claim to have modded? Flow numbers? Valve size? Number of angle valvejob?

You do know he's making 240 rwhp on a Mustang dyno with heavier than stock wheels right? Just buy switching to a Dynojet and he's closer to 260...

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mender
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Report this Post10-26-2017 10:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for menderSend a Private Message to menderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
A bone stock LX9 is about 165WHP and a bone stock L32 is about 135-140WHP.
I don't know if you know but with the 2.8 I had previous to the 3.4, I was able to squeeze 173WHP @ 6000RPM.., more than a stock LX9.

Just another data point: my LX9 has all stock internals and cast iron exhaust manifolds. I use a cable Shortstar throttle body that's the same size as the LX9 DBW TB. I did mild porting on everything I could reach (own and run a performance engine shop) and made 186 whp @ 5300 rpm (that stock cam) on a Dynomotive dyno when finished tuning. At the 6300 rpm fuel cut-off it's still making 172 whp.

Torque output at the wheels starts at 200 ft.lbs @ 2500 rpm, stays almost flat with a peak of 204 ft.lbs at 3800 rpm then starts dropping, dipping below 200 ft.lbs by 4500 rpm.

[This message has been edited by mender (edited 10-26-2017).]

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La fiera
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Report this Post10-26-2017 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


Are you worried about someone on the board making their Fiero quicker than yours?

Why does the sauce need to be kept secret?


Not at all, There will always be some Fiero quicker than mine. I'm always willing to help anybody in the forum and I know some members can testify for that.
But there are certain things that I'd like to keep for myself.

Give you an example:
A friend came to ask me to enter in a karting championship the local track was putting together for the following year, my friend was also the track manager.
The reason he asked me was because he saw me about every weekend practicing. My kart did not comply with the rules because it was built in 1999 for oval tracks only.
This new local track was a road course and to make my kart "Legal" I had to do some changes to it and I did, but not on time. A new kart is about $4500-$5500, I paid $700 for mine! It needed a Spec engine, Spec tires and had to put weights to met the minimum weight to be legal. I asked another friend that owns a Mexican burrito joint to sponsor me and he agreed! He paid for the engine, paid all my entry fees and gas.
Since I was sponsored I paid a local team to rent a kart for the first 3 races, I managed two 2nd places and 1 win. They did the tuning and set up of the kart.
I entered my "modified oval kart" in the 4th round and you should've seen peoples faces! some of them thought it was a joke!

The joke was on them when I put it in pole position for the start. I went to win the race with a large margin of victory. I proceeded to tech to check my "legality" and they stripped my kart apart looking for something illegal, they found nothing. And that happened at every single race!

To make the story short I managed to win almost all the races, the ones I didn't win was because the kart had a mechanical failure or someone crashed into me.
They even brought professional kart drivers with years of experience and hundreds of wins. Did not work for them and that draw the line!
They came to me after the ceremony at the championship banquet to tell me that they will not let me race the following year, they said they had to "level" the plainfield.
"We know you are cheating but we don't know how", that was their reason from banning me from racing that class.

You know where my secret was? All competitors had the same weight, sealed engine and tires. My secret was in the set up and the way I adjusted my driving to use that set up to my advantage.
That was in 2014 and they still ask me how do I manage to be so fast? Now I have a new kart that a manufacturer gave to me because of my achievement with the older kart! the last 2 races I won with the new kart but I used the same principle; set up and use it to my advantage.

Now your question would be like: What was your set up? That I can't tell you!

The moral behind the story is: Don't do what EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING. Think for yourself and look for ways to improve without following the trend.

I'll leave you with some pictures.









That landed me a ride on a Civic on the 24 horus of VIR Chump Car Series. Started 82nd and finished 10th.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-26-2017).]

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La fiera
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Report this Post10-27-2017 09:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Back to the build!
I upgraded the trans. I went from the M17 3.65 gears to the M19 4.10 performance gears 4 speed manual. And to make things more interesting the diff is locked.
Now the driver input has a lot to do with it. You can't just floor it because you'll wrap it around a three.
The reason I decided to weld the diff was because of my karting experience. If I can drive a kart and be fast I want my Fiero
to be just like my kart.




Throttle response is very important for me, specially when rev matching. So an aluminum flywheel was chosen.
There is one trick you must do otherwise you'll hear noises and think is you motor!


If you choose to use an aluminum flywheel DO NOT INSTALL the bolts with out hard steel washers. The reason being is that the bolts will eat the aluminum and the flywheel will get loose and damaged. Apply red locktite and torque to the recommended specs.


Got an Ebay clutch just for giggles and also the price was right! I don't think it'll last long!


Get it in place and ready for the pressure plate.


Pressure plate torqued in place. I think the red color will give it more clamping force!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-27-2017).]

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Blacktree
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Report this Post10-28-2017 11:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The red pressure plate holds an extra 20 ft-lb... true story.

I've been using a Fidanza aluminum flywheel for about 10 years now. There is no loctite on the flywheel bolts. The flywheel has never come loose. Proper torque (and torquing sequence) is your friend.

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La fiera
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Report this Post10-28-2017 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

The red pressure plate holds an extra 20 ft-lb... true story.

I've been using a Fidanza aluminum flywheel for about 10 years now. There is no loctite on the flywheel bolts. The flywheel has never come loose. Proper torque (and torquing sequence) is your friend.


According to the manual there is no loctite on the flywheel botls that's for sure, but me personally using an aluminum flywheel with steel bolts and not using a washer to spread the clamping force evenly around the weak and softer aluminum is asking for trouble. Loctite is for extra precaution, you'll be surprise to see what comes loose when you run an engine constantly from mid to hi rpm for an hour of so.

Hey Mike, you replaced the friction disc on your flywheel right? Can you direct me where to get one?

Thanks!

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Blacktree
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Report this Post10-28-2017 03:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It's available at Summit Racing. Here's the link: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fiz-229501

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Fierobsessed
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Report this Post10-28-2017 07:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That pressure plate sucks. Not that brand per-se. just that specific type. Its a "Valeo AMC44" which probably had its pressure angle modded. I had severe issues with those type plates. They rely solely on the spring straps to retract the pressure ring itself. When you release the clutch the pressure ring isn't FORCED to retract. the spring straps merely suggest it. At high RPM any imbalance of the pressure ring causes it to wobble, grabbing the clutch disk unintentionally. Long story short. You may not be able to shift at high RPMs. If it were perfectly balanced and mounted perfectly centered it might be ok, but chances are it is not.

I've had great luck with Exedy "GMC502" They have clips that are riveted on that grab behind the diaphragm spring. The pressure ring is forced to back away from the clutch disk when you release the clutch. Only downside is that it is a relatively low-moderate clamping pressure plate at 2100 lbs. I've measured SPEC's "SCC883" pressure plate right at 3000 lbs which is impressive. However, that one won't stay released at high RPMs. The modifications they made to increase clamping also reduced the spring straps retracting force.

For some detail, see my build thread.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/127002-7.html#p250

I haven't updated it with my modified Exedy pressure plates yet, as I just finished building one.

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post10-28-2017 08:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Funny how there seems to be just a handful of clutch manufacturers in the world.

Everyone else is just repackaging/repainting/relabeling the Big Guys' clutches.

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Blacktree
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Report this Post10-28-2017 08:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That friction disc makes me nervous. There doesn't seem to be much of anything holding the springs in the hub. You do NOT want that thing throwing springs at 7000 RPM! I'd suggest getting a friction disc with better spring retention, like this:



Notice how there's a sheet metal "cage" around the springs in the hub. There's no way those springs can pop out.

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Fierobsessed
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Report this Post10-28-2017 08:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yes on the handful of manufacturers. But they aren't just re branding, packaging and re-painting. They do modify them. What mods are done, and how they are done is everything. But I've learned so much more than anyone needs to know about how sensitive clutches and pressure plates can be. You can't just put together any plate with any disk and expect it to work. Disk thickness VS pressure plate's load curve is so important, and a very touchy thing. But I can tell just by looking at his clutch that its at the very least got that nailed. The fingers are pressed in to the peak load point, They should be even, or just below the face of the cover plate.

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La fiera
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Report this Post10-28-2017 09:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

Yes on the handful of manufacturers. But they aren't just re branding, packaging and re-painting. They do modify them. What mods are done, and how they are done is everything. But I've learned so much more than anyone needs to know about how sensitive clutches and pressure plates can be. You can't just put together any plate with any disk and expect it to work. Disk thickness VS pressure plate's load curve is so important, and a very touchy thing. But I can tell just by looking at his clutch that its at the very least got that nailed. The fingers are pressed in to the peak load point, They should be even, or just below the face of the cover plate.


Well thank you for that information Fierobsessed! What clutch do you recommend for my build?

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Will
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Report this Post10-29-2017 01:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Hello will! I didn't mentioned it before but I want to keep the "stock " long block look. I'm working on a 3.7 liter using the stock Camaro block.
I know, I know, I can hear all the talk but you'll see it after is done. And I decided to stay with the iron heads because I want to keep the "stock"
looking long block. And my goal is still 300WHP. Hard to swallow but I love challenges.

I'll be selling the 3500 aluminum heads. They are being developed right now $1000 shipped Anybody?
Flow numbers will come soon.


I never understood prioritizing looks over power, but it's your build. Just keep your expectations realistic. There's are reasons Northstars make more power than 4.9's that no 4.9 build can overcome no matter how much attention is put into the details.

I don't think you'll get to 300 WHP with the iron heads unless everything else in the build is perfect, including use of an aggressive mechanical ROLLER cam and more displacement. 3.7 liters from the Camaro block will be fun, too. There are ways to do it, but none of them are well-advised.

Without the extra displacement, you'll be getting into an RPM range in which the required spring load and valvetrain loads run a real risk of popping a rocker boss off the heads. If that happens, you'll never achieve your goal with that configuration.


 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Now that's an unfair comparison, the LX9 has 500cc' over in displacement, better intake and heads that flow way better than the 3.4 and the advantage of the roller cam.
So that engine you mentioned with 2 mods that made 240WHP, in reality it has 6 mods over the L32.


LOL! You're the one who gave yourself the handicaps
As noted, LX9 in a 3.5 liter, so displacement advantage is not 500ccs. However, it has a 2mm bigger bore than the 3.4, unshrouding the valves that much more.
Focus on engine building, not mod accounting.


 
quote
Originally posted by turbo 3800:

A 3900 iron block still has a factory longblock look to it if you put iron heads on it. Then you get advantage of stock looking block with increased displacement and roller cam.


This won't work. The LZ4 and LZ9 bore centers are moved outboard compared to earlier engines. The accompanying increase in bore size to 99mm means that the outer edges of the bore move 5 mm. This change caused GM to move the cooling jacket holes in the deck. Neither the chambers/bores nor the cooling jacket holes still line up between the old heads and the new blocks.

 
quote
Originally posted by turbo 3800:
You could use a 3400 iron block and use a roller cam too you know.


Exactly... I think he'll need to do that in order to hit his power goal.


 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

That's a good idea about using the 3900 block and use the iron heads!

The reason I use a big mechanical cam is to make up for the lack of head flow of the iron heads.


A big roller would do even better, as aggressive ramp rates would result in more area under the lift curve and more time spent at max lift, comparing across the same max lift for flat and roller tappets.
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Back to the build!
I upgraded the trans. I went from the M17 3.65 gears to the M19 4.10 performance gears 4 speed manual. And to make things more interesting the diff is locked.
Now the driver input has a lot to do with it. You can't just floor it because you'll wrap it around a three.
The reason I decided to weld the diff was because of my karting experience. If I can drive a kart and be fast I want my Fiero
to be just like my kart.


LOL! Good luck with that. Your Fiero is NOT a kart.


 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

If you choose to use an aluminum flywheel DO NOT INSTALL the bolts with out hard steel washers. The reason being is that the bolts will eat the aluminum and the flywheel will get loose and damaged. Apply red locktite and torque to the recommended specs.



How many torque cycles are on those bolts? Reusing stock bolts more than two torque cycles is very sketchy.

If you want a clutch that enhances your car's performance, you may want to give serious consideration to a Tilton or Quartermaster 7.25" dual disk.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-29-2017).]

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La fiera
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Report this Post10-29-2017 03:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

If you want a clutch that enhances your car's performance, you may want to give serious consideration to a Tilton or Quartermaster 7.25" dual disk.



Thank you very much Will!!

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Report this Post10-29-2017 06:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ok! Enough of the positive criticism and back to the build!



connected the oil lines and new oil filter.


Prime the entine


Fuel lines installed and pressurized, make sure to check for leaks!


Ok, we are ready to fire! Waiting for Major Tom countdown!

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Report this Post10-31-2017 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

LOL! Good luck with that. Your Fiero is NOT a kart.


Tell that to people who drive larger cars...
It's actually one of the things I like about the Fiero when compared to 'other' vehicles.

 
quote
I don't think you'll get to 300 WHP with the iron heads unless everything else in the build is perfect, including use of an aggressive mechanical ROLLER cam and more displacement. 3.7 liters from the Camaro block will be fun, too. There are ways to do it, but none of them are well-advised.

Yep. We know...a 3.4 will never make 200rwhp...then Oreif did... A 3.4 will never make 250hp...then la Fiera did...
I think he knows what he's doing. Rather than sit here and criticize, let's just enjoy the build...which has already exceeded all expectations!
Personally, I think he could hit 300 as a 3.5L with more compression and a couple of other tweaks such as narrower valve stems...

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Report this Post11-01-2017 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

There was nothing ambiguous or open to interpretation about the assertion "Your Fiero is not a kart". Larger cars were not mentioned and therefore are not relevant.

I didn't say it couldn't be done. You quoted me as not saying that. I did say that the rest of the build would have to be perfect in order to hit 300 WHP. This remains the case and is likewise not ambiguous.

Let us know when you do a 250 WHP build.

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Report this Post11-02-2017 07:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

There was nothing ambiguous or open to interpretation about the assertion "Your Fiero is not a kart". Larger cars were not mentioned and therefore are not relevant.

I didn't say it couldn't be done. You quoted me as not saying that. I did say that the rest of the build would have to be perfect in order to hit 300 WHP. This remains the case and is likewise not ambiguous.

Let us know when you do a 250 WHP build.

I'll let you know when I try. Considering the weight of the wheels I'm turning, and the race I run, my builds have been about torque and I've already made 249 ft*lbs with a stock 3400 cam + Fiero intake on a Mustang dyno. I lost power [on the dyno] when I upgraded from 45 lbs wheel/tire combination to 54 lbs....yet still make over 200ft*lbs... Even at 45lbs, my rotating assembly was made higher than stock thanks to my 12" brakes and the thicker than stock Cobalt SS-based axles required by the F40 6-speed oh yeah and 1" aluminum spacer for the flywheel. Once again - the heads aren't the issue.
At the time, I remarked that my 3.4 build was slightly faster than my 4.9+allante intake 5 speed car with stock brakes and axles. Since going to bigger and wider and heavier wheels, it is most certainly not as future dynos have proven...however, the extra grip at the track still made the car faster overall on the oval-track racing that I do because I build that kind of engine for that kind of race. When you pay me to build a 300hp engine, I most certainly will. My drop-clutch rpm is in the 2000-2400 range and thanks to the gearing, I launch as good as slightly modified AWD cars but not as good as the more highly modified ones. My current engine is using the 480/480 cam from WOT-Tech which lowers the peak hp by another 300 rpm but gives me a slight bump in torque 400rpm sooner on the torque curve.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 11-02-2017).]

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Report this Post11-02-2017 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

[/benchracing]

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Report this Post11-02-2017 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BootClick Here to Email BootSend a Private Message to BootEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This is a great thread... I've wanted to see what sort of crazy places I could take an iron head motor, or even a stock displacement motor, but of course no means, means no course :P

Anyways, I was reading about your crank up above. What about the Mclaren/GM 3.1 turbo v6 from the late 80's? LG5, I think. From what I've read of it, not only is the block a special alloy with more nickel, but the internals are all hardened too. if you could find one of those, I'm sure the crank would be a stronger alternative to the f-body cast unit. According to Wikipedia they made about 3,700 of em per year in 89 and 90.

Hell, if you really felt like it, you could probably bore out the block and use the whole thing. I'm not even sure what the higher nickel content does, but it sounds cool

Here's a link. Wikipedia

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Report this Post11-02-2017 09:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Boot:

This is a great thread... I've wanted to see what sort of crazy places I could take an iron head motor, or even a stock displacement motor


Thanks Boot! That is what this build is all about!
I know I can break the 300whp with aluminum heads and put the NorthStar to shame missing 2 cylinders but this is not about that. This is about pushing the envelope.
Not only that but I do road course racing. That is at least 30 minutes of hard driving, So endurance will also be a test.

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Report this Post11-02-2017 09:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


I find it funny how everyone is pushing their 30+ year's Fieros for more performance but they don't try to get to the car's performance level themselves!

Here I am at 48 getting ready for next weekend to shakedown the Supernatural 3.4 at the road course.

My philosophy is that Fiero and driver are one

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 11-02-2017).]

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Report this Post11-02-2017 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post




New wheel and tires installed. I chose the "Stock Car" look becasue I livein Mooresville,, NC where a bunch of drivers and teams are located here in NC. Literally down the street from me. ( I hate NASCAR) I only watch 2 races a year, Sonoma, California and Watkins Glen, NY and they are both road courses.
I'm waiting for some flares, if they don't come before my test I'll use the other wheel and tire combo.
Why did I chose it? Because I like the Look!
Yes, the 1983 Porsche 944 is my daily driver and my 2014 Abarth is also my other daily driver. Like the Fiero they are light, nimble and low powered cars! They make for a better driver.

The Fiero scaled at 2200 without me, I weight 138lbs.

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Report this Post11-03-2017 07:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

[/benchracing]


It's nice to see you finally being honest with yourself.

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Report this Post11-03-2017 07:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:




New wheel and tires installed. I chose the "Stock Car" look becasue I livein Mooresville,, NC where a bunch of drivers and teams are located here in NC. Literally down the street from me. ( I hate NASCAR) I only watch 2 races a year, Sonoma, California and Watkins Glen, NY and they are both road courses.
I'm waiting for some flares, if they don't come before my test I'll use the other wheel and tire combo.
Why did I chose it? Because I like the Look!
Yes, the 1983 Porsche 944 is my daily driver and my 2014 Abarth is also my other daily driver. Like the Fiero they are light, nimble and low powered cars! They make for a better driver.

The Fiero scaled at 2200 without me, I weight 138lbs.

One of the projects I hope to get done this winter is adapting the 93-97 Firebird fenders to the Fiero. I've been destroying my nose and wheel-well area with my 17x10's and the Firebird fender seems to fit right over the Fiero fender pretty well but needs trimming around the door and windshield. It also requires so massaging at the front but I was thinking of merging the Trans Am nose I have with the Fiero nose to support it. I have a video either on youtube or Facebook where I test-fit the fenders.

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Report this Post11-03-2017 07:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

One of the projects I hope to get done this winter is adapting the 93-97 Firebird fenders to the Fiero. I've been destroying my nose and wheel-well area with my 17x10's and the Firebird fender seems to fit right over the Fiero fender pretty well but needs trimming around the door and windshield. It also requires so massaging at the front but I was thinking of merging the Trans Am nose I have with the Fiero nose to support it. I have a video either on youtube or Facebook where I test-fit the fenders.


Send me the link, I'd like to see that. That is a very clever idea!

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Report this Post11-03-2017 02:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Send me the link, I'd like to see that. That is a very clever idea!

Just uploaded it. Was on facebook but I couldn't find it.


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Report this Post11-03-2017 03:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:



FieroWarehouse wide front fenders?
What size tires?

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Report this Post11-03-2017 03:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Just uploaded it. Was on facebook but I couldn't find it.


Thar looks pretty nice! Are they metal or fiberglass?

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