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Northstar installation frame cutting... F40? by Sideway-swede
Started on: 01-27-2015 05:25 PM
Replies: 43 (995 views)
Last post by: Will on 01-31-2015 10:10 PM
Sideway-swede
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Report this Post01-27-2015 05:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi!
I have a 1988 Pontiac Fiero GT with the getrag 5-speed and I'm loving the car, however, I think it needs an upgrade in the engine department, and I absolutely LOVE V8's. I've been looking a lot at buying a L37 Northstar engine and mating it to my 5-speed getrag and use my 1988 V6 flywheel(plug and redrill), because the northstar v8's are VERY cheap over here, and I would love to have a cammed, 8000 rpm, DOHC V8 behind my right ear, though I don't want to ruin the weight distrubution. I have read a fair bit on this forum and I know that there are alot of people who think I should go for a 3800 SC instead, but fact is that while they're cheap and plentiful over in the states, i can't find a single one over here, plus i don't like supercharger whine. So I hope that's that, but if you have something to say that can be of use, I'm all ears. Because I live in Sweden, Fieros and parts are hard to come by without spending a fortune (for example, a IAC-valve for the V6 costs 80 $). And because Fieros are rare they are also quite expensive, especially 1988 stickshifts, and I think that it would be a smart move to make modifications that can be reversed back to original. So my questions are:

Can you fit a Northstar in a 1988 Fiero GT with the 5-speed without having to cut in the engine compartment (mainly concerning the passenger side strut tower)?

Would it help if I installed it with an F40 6-speed?

Is there any other engine swap that you guys recommend that would work with my needs? Preferably V8's, but some V6's are nice too!


I really appreciate all the answers I can get and I have no doubt in that the members of this forum will be helpful!

Ps. No matter which swap I decide to do I will probably use a fully programmable ecm.
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Report this Post01-27-2015 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The F40 is larger than the 5 speed. To use it you will have to notch the cradle on the driver side as well. That would be required even if you kept the stock 2.8.

Most every V8 is going to require a fair amount of fabrication to fit, if that's what you're worried about.

This is probably the best thread to go through about using the N* and F40 if you want to go that route:

Blooze Own: An F355 Six Speed N* Build Thread
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Sideway-swede
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Report this Post01-27-2015 06:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

The F40 is larger than the 5 speed. To use it you will have to notch the cradle on the driver side as well. That would be required even if you kept the stock 2.8.

Most every V8 is going to require a fair amount of fabrication to fit, if that's what you're worried about.

This is probably the best thread to go through about using the N* and F40 if you want to go that route:

Blooze Own: An F355 Six Speed N* Build Thread


Thanks for the reply!
Im not at all worried about fabricating mounts and such, in fact, I plan on taking measurements of the stock cradle and try to weld a second cradle for the swap! Or if that proves too difficult, I can live with cutting and welding on the cradle, I just want to spare the chassie itself from the angle grinder. But the main question still remains; can I fit a northstar in the fiero without cutting in the strut tower of the car?

[This message has been edited by Sideway-swede (edited 01-27-2015).]

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Report this Post01-27-2015 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Sideway-swede:
...
But the main question still remains; can I fit a northstar in the fiero without cutting in the strut tower of the car?


I kind of doubt it. Seems like every 88 Northstar installation I've ever heard of required the right shock tower to be... massaged.

You might try PMing "Will" on this forum. He has a Northstar in an 88, with a Getrag. Or he may jump in here.

Edit - He's also got a very detailed swap/build thread here on the forum.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-27-2015).]

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Report this Post01-27-2015 06:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


I kind of doubt it. Seems like every 88 Northstar installation I've ever heard of required the right shock tower to be... massaged.

You might try PMing "Will" on this forum. He has a Northstar in an 88, with a Getrag. Or he may jump in here.

Edit - He's also got a very detailed swap/build thread here on the forum.



Thanks! I hope he chimes in here!
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Report this Post01-27-2015 07:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Duplicate this build: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000030.html

Other than removing the dogbone mount from the right strut tower, it does not appear that he did any body metal mods. Removing the dogbone mount is not actually even necessary... it just has to be trimmed.

Keep in mind that he moved his engine to the left in order to have the necessary strut tower clearance.

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

The F40 is larger than the 5 speed.


It actually is not... at least not in the dimension that matters.
The F40 is larger in girth than the 282, but because of its dual layshaft design, is actually SHORTER from the bellhousing face to the extremis of the case.

Also, the F40 requires a deeper flywheel than the 282... the simplest way to have a flywheel would be to start with the Camaro 3800 flywheel and plug/redrill it for the Northstar pattern.

 
quote
Originally posted by Sideway-swede:

Thanks for the reply!
Im not at all worried about fabricating mounts and such, in fact, I plan on taking measurements of the stock cradle and try to weld a second cradle for the swap! Or if that proves too difficult, I can live with cutting and welding on the cradle, I just want to spare the chassie itself from the angle grinder. But the main question still remains; can I fit a northstar in the fiero without cutting in the strut tower of the car?



In addition to modest trimming of the dogbone mount, what typically has to be done is to cut the lower attaching bolt off the right hing box. The upper bolt can stay.
However, if you move the powertrain to the left to clear the strut tower, you *MAY* end up with enough clearance to avoid cutting the hinge box.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-27-2015).]

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Sideway-swede
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Report this Post01-27-2015 07:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Duplicate this build: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000030.html

Other than removing the dogbone mount from the right strut tower, it does not appear that he did any body metal mods. Removing the dogbone mount is not actually even necessary... it just has to be trimmed.

Keep in mind that he moved his engine to the left in order to have the necessary strut tower clearance.


It actually is not... at least not in the dimension that matters.
The F40 is larger in girth than the 282, but because of its dual layshaft design, is actually SHORTER from the bellhousing face to the extremis of the case.

Also, the F40 requires a deeper flywheel than the 282... the simplest way to have a flywheel would be to start with the Camaro 3800 flywheel and plug/redrill it for the Northstar pattern.


Great info! Thanks a lot!
Moving the engine a bit seems like a very good solution in my case!
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Report this Post01-27-2015 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You'll also have no choice but to move the front cross member on the engine cradle further forward too.
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Report this Post01-27-2015 07:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are there any other V8 swaps you guys think i should take a look at? I've also thought about trying my luck with swaping in a 3.0 Alfa Romeo 24V V6... you can get a whole working car with decent milage for 300 dollar or less, and it would be a one of a kind! Or prehaps a SAAB V6 turbo like bmwguru... saabs were made here so parts are very easy to come by. Thats one of the pros and cons of living in europe; we have different engines than you have in the US, so it's hard not to enter "uncharted waters"...
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Report this Post01-27-2015 07:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

You'll also have no choice but to move the front cross member on the engine cradle further forward too.


Ouch, that hurts...
I'll try to make a custom second cradle for the northstar swap if I decide to do one and see where i can get from there...
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Report this Post01-27-2015 08:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Sideway-swede:

Are there any other V8 swaps you guys think i should take a look at? I've also thought about trying my luck with swaping in a 3.0 Alfa Romeo 24V V6... you can get a whole working car with decent milage for 300 dollar or less, and it would be a one of a kind! Or prehaps a SAAB V6 turbo like bmwguru... saabs were made here so parts are very easy to come by. Thats one of the pros and cons of living in europe; we have different engines than you have in the US, so it's hard not to enter "uncharted waters"...


I was going to suggest the GM high feature V6 as an alternative to the Northstar. I know that came in 2.8 displacement turbocharged in Europe. I like N/A engines, so I'd go for the 3.6 direct injected engine, but I'm not sure what European apps received it.

The Saab from 2009 onward had a version of the F40 which bolted to that engine, so you can still have it with a manual transmission.

While moving the powertrain to the left helps, it is more work. Note that you will need to do something custom for axle shafts when you move the powertrain.

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wi..._High_Feature_engine

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Report this Post01-27-2015 09:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Sideway-swede:


Ouch, that hurts...
I'll try to make a custom second cradle for the northstar swap if I decide to do one and see where i can get from there...


Mods necessary to the stock cradle won't bother you if you're building your own.
If you can build your own, you probably don't need us to tell you how.

However, one thing you SHOULD do if building your own cradle is raise the inner pivots of the lateral links by 25-40 mm. This corrects a deficiency in the Fiero's stock rear roll center location and dramatically improves handling and controllability at the limit. This is the best bang/buck (bang/kroner?) modification you can do for an '88 Fiero's handling.

The second best bang/buck mod you can do to an '88 Fiero is to run steel on steel ball joints in the rear lateral links.

Here's a thread on how to do it with rod ends: http://www.realfierotech.co...topic.php?f=3&t=2573

However, I recommend building links to use these joints, if you can:

http://www.europartimports....o.php?products_id=32



Lemforder / Lemfoerder Part number 34756-01
Which is a sealed steel-on-steel ball joint with numerous Mercedes applications spanning 20 years.

IE, it's a highly engineered automotive version of a sealed monoball, that's available cheap because it's been mass produced for a couple of decades.
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Report this Post01-27-2015 11:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I was going to suggest the GM high feature V6 as an alternative to the Northstar. I know that came in 2.8 displacement turbocharged in Europe. I like N/A engines, so I'd go for the 3.6 direct injected engine, but I'm not sure what European apps received it.

The Saab from 2009 onward had a version of the F40 which bolted to that engine, so you can still have it with a manual transmission.


I think the F40 was actually available in the Saab 9-3 2.8t from 2004 on. It is probably much cheaper/easier to find an F40 with the High Feature bell pattern in Sweden (or anywhere else in Europe) than in the USA. So it would be a pretty good option if one is willing to deal with the electronics/tuning headache (the biggest thing that's prevented people from doing the swap over here).

The 2.8 LP9 was used in a lot of Euro cars (Opel and Saab). I think any of the 3.xL displacement versions were used very little in Europe, and mostly in USDM cars.

It would certainly be great to see another High Feature swap happen though. So definitely a good suggestion for someone in Europe. An Ecotec 4 cylinder wouldn't be bad either. They should be pretty plentiful in Europe too, as they get used in a lot of worldwide platforms.
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quote
Originally posted by Will:

Duplicate this build: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000030.html

Other than removing the dogbone mount from the right strut tower, it does not appear that he did any body metal mods. Removing the dogbone mount is not actually even necessary... it just has to be trimmed.

Keep in mind that he moved his engine to the left in order to have the necessary strut tower clearance.


In addition to modest trimming of the dogbone mount, what typically has to be done is to cut the lower attaching bolt off the right hing box. The upper bolt can stay.
However, if you move the powertrain to the left to clear the strut tower, you *MAY* end up with enough clearance to avoid cutting the hinge box.



I did in fact have to make a pocket on the right strut tower for the rear valve cover. When I did my F40 swap I had already run the car with the northstar for a while so that pocket is not shown in that particular build thread. Also, since I was running the getrag to start with, the engine / transmission interface plane remained in the factory location when I swapped to the F40. There was only 1/4" clearance to from the F40 to the Fiero frame rail on the drivers side so I don't think you can avoid cutting the strut tower on an 88. If you had an 84-87 you might get away without it since the strut towers aren't tipped in as much as the 88's.
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Report this Post01-28-2015 03:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IXSLR8Click Here to Email IXSLR8Send a Private Message to IXSLR8Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Relative to your questions:

1) You can fit a Northstar in a 1988 Fiero GT with the 5-speed Getrag without having to cut the right strut tower. I have the 5speed Getrag with a 1996 N* and I'm approximately 1/4 inch from the valve cover to the 88 strut tower. I moved my transmission a little to the left using the stock 5 speed cradle mounting slots. There is no binding on the axels and fits fine without cutting the strut tower. The closest measurement is between the cam sensor and the strut tower. You will have to cut the right deck lid hinge to allow fitment for the front cab side valve cover. The main work with this swap is with the modification of the cradle and engine mounts...all very doable though. I would suggest that you put your new front crossmember as far forward as you can for easy access to the oil cooler lines, oil pressure switch and for oil filter options.

2) Would it help to install an F40 6-speed? Yes, the F40 will take more HP and torque than the 5 speed Getrag. No, it won't make any real difference with the engine bay space requirements.

3) Is there any other engine swap that you'd recommend? You might consider the typical late model LS GM V8's. They are cheaper to work on and have a ton of aftermarket performance support compared to the N*.

Relative to ECM's, the early N*s have a number of options to choose from to get the engine running well outside of the cadillac platform: Shelby series 1, Holley Commander, Holley Dominator, OBD2 & OBD1 Caddy computers, and others.

Additional comment regarding the manual transmission/N* and exhaust. There is plenty of room for exhaust using the Getrag or F40. I have a complete trunk with an 80 series flow master in the stock position and headers. With the auto, its very, very tight work. I cut the trunk bottom out for auto transmission configuration.
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Report this Post01-28-2015 05:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I was going to suggest the GM high feature V6 as an alternative to the Northstar. I know that came in 2.8 displacement turbocharged in Europe. I like N/A engines, so I'd go for the 3.6 direct injected engine, but I'm not sure what European apps received it.

The Saab from 2009 onward had a version of the F40 which bolted to that engine, so you can still have it with a manual transmission.

While moving the powertrain to the left helps, it is more work. Note that you will need to do something custom for axle shafts when you move the powertrain.

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wi..._High_Feature_engine


I'm also a NA guy, I think turbos destroy the sound. But like you said, the complete drivetrains are plentiful over here, but sadly they're not cheap. An engine costs around 1200-1500 bucks. If I am to swap in another V6 in my car i belive i will go with the Alfa Romeo V6. It's one of the best sounding engines out there IMO. For example:

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqMrrGgIrpk&list=PL6bswOKIuOjQcbvwYNTmGjUffCR2i1SUN&index=2][/url]
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Report this Post01-28-2015 05:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Sideway-swede

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quote
Originally posted by Will:


Mods necessary to the stock cradle won't bother you if you're building your own.
If you can build your own, you probably don't need us to tell you how.

However, one thing you SHOULD do if building your own cradle is raise the inner pivots of the lateral links by 25-40 mm. This corrects a deficiency in the Fiero's stock rear roll center location and dramatically improves handling and controllability at the limit. This is the best bang/buck (bang/kroner?) modification you can do for an '88 Fiero's handling.

The second best bang/buck mod you can do to an '88 Fiero is to run steel on steel ball joints in the rear lateral links.

Here's a thread on how to do it with rod ends: http://www.realfierotech.co...topic.php?f=3&t=2573

However, I recommend building links to use these joints, if you can:

http://www.europartimports....o.php?products_id=32



Lemforder / Lemfoerder Part number 34756-01
Which is a sealed steel-on-steel ball joint with numerous Mercedes applications spanning 20 years.

IE, it's a highly engineered automotive version of a sealed monoball, that's available cheap because it's been mass produced for a couple of decades.


Thanks for the advice, I'll be sure to look into it!
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Sideway-swede

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quote
Originally posted by dobey:


I think the F40 was actually available in the Saab 9-3 2.8t from 2004 on. It is probably much cheaper/easier to find an F40 with the High Feature bell pattern in Sweden (or anywhere else in Europe) than in the USA. So it would be a pretty good option if one is willing to deal with the electronics/tuning headache (the biggest thing that's prevented people from doing the swap over here).

The 2.8 LP9 was used in a lot of Euro cars (Opel and Saab). I think any of the 3.xL displacement versions were used very little in Europe, and mostly in USDM cars.

It would certainly be great to see another High Feature swap happen though. So definitely a good suggestion for someone in Europe. An Ecotec 4 cylinder wouldn't be bad either. They should be pretty plentiful in Europe too, as they get used in a lot of worldwide platforms.


Wait, doesn't the GM high feature engines have the same bellhousing pattern as the 60* v6?
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Report this Post01-28-2015 06:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Zac88GT:


I did in fact have to make a pocket on the right strut tower for the rear valve cover. When I did my F40 swap I had already run the car with the northstar for a while so that pocket is not shown in that particular build thread. Also, since I was running the getrag to start with, the engine / transmission interface plane remained in the factory location when I swapped to the F40. There was only 1/4" clearance to from the F40 to the Fiero frame rail on the drivers side so I don't think you can avoid cutting the strut tower on an 88. If you had an 84-87 you might get away without it since the strut towers aren't tipped in as much as the 88's.


I see. Do you think the F40 swap was worth the effort?
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Report this Post01-28-2015 07:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

Relative to your questions:

1) You can fit a Northstar in a 1988 Fiero GT with the 5-speed Getrag without having to cut the right strut tower. I have the 5speed Getrag with a 1996 N* and I'm approximately 1/4 inch from the valve cover to the 88 strut tower. I moved my transmission a little to the left using the stock 5 speed cradle mounting slots. There is no binding on the axels and fits fine without cutting the strut tower. The closest measurement is between the cam sensor and the strut tower. You will have to cut the right deck lid hinge to allow fitment for the front cab side valve cover. The main work with this swap is with the modification of the cradle and engine mounts...all very doable though. I would suggest that you put your new front crossmember as far forward as you can for easy access to the oil cooler lines, oil pressure switch and for oil filter options.

2) Would it help to install an F40 6-speed? Yes, the F40 will take more HP and torque than the 5 speed Getrag. No, it won't make any real difference with the engine bay space requirements.

3) Is there any other engine swap that you'd recommend? You might consider the typical late model LS GM V8's. They are cheaper to work on and have a ton of aftermarket performance support compared to the N*.

Relative to ECM's, the early N*s have a number of options to choose from to get the engine running well outside of the cadillac platform: Shelby series 1, Holley Commander, Holley Dominator, OBD2 & OBD1 Caddy computers, and others.

Additional comment regarding the manual transmission/N* and exhaust. There is plenty of room for exhaust using the Getrag or F40. I have a complete trunk with an 80 series flow master in the stock position and headers. With the auto, its very, very tight work. I cut the trunk bottom out for auto transmission configuration.


Thank you! Thats great news!
If what you said is true, I think the northstar could be THE engine for me! I've thought about using a late model LS-engine, but they are about three to four times more expensive than a northstar where I live. When you did your swap, which flywheel did you go with? I think the Spec products could become a bit expensive with the freight and the swedish 25% import taxes. However, if I go with a northstar, I will probably invest in some CHRFAB cams to put on it. Do you think the getrag can handle the torque of a cammed northstar, or is the F40 stronger? You also said that the F40 will TAKE more power and torque than the Getrag, does this mean that the I will have more drivetrain loss if i use the F40?
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Sideway-swede

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BTW, do you guys have anything to say about the MS3X? It's the ecm I plan to use with my swap, so if you have any opinions about which ecm I should go with I'd love to hear them.
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Report this Post01-28-2015 09:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Sideway-swede:


Wait, doesn't the GM high feature engines have the same bellhousing pattern as the 60* v6?


No. The High Feature DOHC engine has its own bell pattern. The High Value (3.5, 3.9) has the same metric pattern as the 60 degree V6.

The Northstar also has a slightly different pattern to the Metric pattern, but can be used with it, requiring cutting the top of the trans, and I think moving a dowel pin or similar, and maybe some grinding for axle clearance. Plenty of details in the previously mentioned threads on that.
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Report this Post01-28-2015 09:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Sideway-swede:
Thank you! Thats great news!
If what you said is true, I think the northstar could be THE engine for me! I've thought about using a late model LS-engine, but they are about three to four times more expensive than a northstar where I live. When you did your swap, which flywheel did you go with? I think the Spec products could become a bit expensive with the freight and the swedish 25% import taxes. However, if I go with a northstar, I will probably invest in some CHRFAB cams to put on it. Do you think the getrag can handle the torque of a cammed northstar, or is the F40 stronger? You also said that the F40 will TAKE more power and torque than the Getrag, does this mean that the I will have more drivetrain loss if i use the F40?


The F40 is stronger than the 5 speed. It's rated at 400 N-m (FXX == FWD and XX * 100 N-m torque rating, for the GM transmissions). You won't have more mechanical loss with the F40 than the 5 speed, in any meaningful sense.

The term take is often used in US English in the manner of capable of accepting something. I hope that clears up the confusion.
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Report this Post01-28-2015 10:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


The F40 is stronger than the 5 speed. It's rated at 400 N-m (FXX == FWD and XX * 100 N-m torque rating, for the GM transmissions). You won't have more mechanical loss with the F40 than the 5 speed, in any meaningful sense.

The term take is often used in US English in the manner of capable of accepting something. I hope that clears up the confusion.


Haha yeah I figured that out later, but thanks for clearing it up!
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quote
Originally posted by Sideway-swede:


I see. Do you think the F40 swap was worth the effort?


Not if you have a 5 speed in good working order. Mine was toast so it was either find a new getrag or swap to the F40.
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Report this Post01-28-2015 11:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Zac88GT:


Not if you have a 5 speed in good working order. Mine was toast so it was either find a new getrag or swap to the F40.


Okay, thanks!
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Report this Post01-28-2015 01:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


I think the F40 was actually available in the Saab 9-3 2.8t from 2004 on.


It was introduced with the Ecotec in 2004... I don't think it was used with the HFV6 until 2009.
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Report this Post01-28-2015 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Will

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quote
Originally posted by Zac88GT:

If you had an 84-87 you might get away without it since the strut towers aren't tipped in as much as the 88's.


Cutting the strut tower was not necessary for me, and my bellhousing plane is in the stock location with my Getrag on stock replacement urethane mounts. My car is an '87. However, I also only have about 1/4" of clearance to the strut tower, but mine is at the valve cover flange just aft of the cam sensor.

 
quote
Originally posted by Sideway-swede:


Wait, doesn't the GM high feature engines have the same bellhousing pattern as the 60* v6?



Nope.

 
quote
Originally posted by Sideway-swede:


I see. Do you think the F40 swap was worth the effort?


Depends...

I broke a CV joint at the drag strip. I'd like to swap from the Getrag to the F40 because the F40 has larger stronger splines where the CV joints go into the transmission.

ALSO, the right version of the F40 can have a taller top gear than the Getrag for lower highway cruise RPM. I turn 2700 @ 80 mph right now with 0.72 fith gear and 3.61 final. I am about to swap to a 3.94 final, which will get me to 2900 @ 80.
The F40 has a 0.62 sixth gear available (it differed by year, so do your homework), and final drives of 3.55 or 3.91. With 3.55 it would turn 2300 at 80 mph and with 3.91 it would turn 2500.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-28-2015).]

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Report this Post01-28-2015 01:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


It was introduced with the Ecotec in 2004... I don't think it was used with the HFV6 until 2009.


I see the Saab 9-3 got the LP9 in 2006. The 9-3 Aero came with the LP9/F40.

Very hard to find a manual 2.8t in the US though. They're almost all automatics. :-/
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Report this Post01-28-2015 10:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

ALSO, the right version of the F40 can have a taller top gear than the Getrag for lower highway cruise RPM. I turn 2700 @ 80 mph right now with 0.72 fith gear and 3.61 final. I am about to swap to a 3.94 final, which will get me to 2900 @ 80.
The F40 has a 0.62 sixth gear available (it differed by year, so do your homework), and final drives of 3.55 or 3.91. With 3.55 it would turn 2300 at 80 mph and with 3.91 it would turn 2500.



New applications, like the Buick Regal GS (Opel Insignia?) coded MR6 have a 3.762 Final also.
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Report this Post01-28-2015 11:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:
New applications, like the Buick Regal GS (Opel Insignia?) coded MR6 have a 3.762 Final also.


It also seems to have the same gear ratios as the earlier MT2 F40 instead of the later MU9, save for 1st being 3.917 instead of 3.77.
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Report this Post01-29-2015 02:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IXSLR8Click Here to Email IXSLR8Send a Private Message to IXSLR8Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I used the SPEC clutch and flywheel package for the N*. I have had 0 issues or problems with it. The flywheel is aluminum with a steel insert. I actually prefer the steel flywheel for a number of reasons.

I have the mild CHRFAB 272 cams using the Shelby series 1 program with the LS computer. I gained nothing using them with this program. It was a waste of money. I don't think I would buy any CHRFAB or reground cams again unless they were significant such as the 282's. You are best to go with an aftermarket ECU to take advantage of the cams and tune the way Alan uses them. The person I bought the 272 cams from had a Holley Commander and was netting 350HP with the mild cams.

CHRFAB's (Alan's) advice to me, regarding the 272 cams and the Getrag transmission, was to be careful relative to burnouts or hard shifts at high (7500-8000) rpms. Rolling take-offs on up to higher speeds he said would be fine on the Getrag. The F40 is stronger with the same approximate parasitic losses. I don't hesitate with WOT's while moving. Awesome power curve pulling, pulling and more pulling. I also have the heavier duty springs for the valves that will turn up to 8200 rpms according to CHRFAB.

I also have an aluminum tab welded to the N* block where the mismatched Getrag hole is. You also have to clearance the upper part of the transmission for the N* starter. Both of these mods are easily done.

You should build your car based on how you want to drive it. Sounds like the N* is a good choice for you since it nets 300HP with out any mods in stock form, is cheap to acquire and readily available in Sweden.

[This message has been edited by IXSLR8 (edited 01-29-2015).]

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Report this Post01-29-2015 03:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Sideway-swedeSend a Private Message to Sideway-swedeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

I used the SPEC clutch and flywheel package for the N*. I have had 0 issues or problems with it. The flywheel is aluminum with a steel insert. I actually prefer the steel flywheel for a number of reasons.

I have the mild CHRFAB 272 cams using the Shelby series 1 program with the LS computer. I gained nothing using them with this program. It was a waste of money. I don't think I would buy any CHRFAB or reground cams again unless they were significant such as the 282's. You are best to go with an aftermarket ECU to take advantage of the cams and tune the way Alan uses them. The person I bought the 272 cams from had a Holley Commander and was netting 350HP with the mild cams.

CHRFAB's (Alan's) advice to me, regarding the 272 cams and the Getrag transmission, was to be careful relative to burnouts or hard shifts at high (7500-8000) rpms. Rolling take-offs on up to higher speeds he said would be fine on the Getrag. The F40 is stronger with the same approximate parasitic losses. I don't hesitate with WOT's while moving. Awesome power curve pulling, pulling and more pulling. I also have the heavier duty springs for the valves that will turn up to 8200 rpms according to CHRFAB.

I also have an aluminum tab welded to the N* block where the mismatched Getrag hole is. You also have to clearance the upper part of the transmission for the N* starter. Both of these mods are easily done.

You should build your car based on how you want to drive it. Sounds like the N* is a good choice for you since it nets 300HP with out any mods in stock form, is cheap to acquire and readily available in Sweden.



Wow, those are some really nice numbers, especially in a car that weighs less than 2800 lbs!
Okay, I think i'll go with the spec product line then, wouldn't wanna have a breakdown in the clutch/flywheel department (or anywhere else for that matter)... How's the vibration at stoplights and the drivability around town with the cams? I've read that the 288 cams will give about 75HP over stock at the same RPMs as the stock cams, but how much vibration would they cause? I'm not very sensitive when it comes to vibration, but it could become annoying if the car starts to shake and rattle every time I stop. Thank you for taking you're time to answer my questions! I'd give you a + if I could! (I have to wait for 30 days before i can rate anyone)
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Report this Post01-29-2015 10:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

I used the SPEC clutch and flywheel package for the N*. I have had 0 issues or problems with it. The flywheel is aluminum with a steel insert. I actually prefer the steel flywheel for a number of reasons.


Does SPEC make a flywheel for the F40 with the Northstar? The 282 flywheel isn't deep enough for the F40 with the flywheel space... Didn't FieroGuru design an aluminum F40 flywheel for his LS4? This only change required to use that on the Northstar should be bolt circle and crank pilot bore.


 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

I have the mild CHRFAB 272 cams using the Shelby series 1 program with the LS computer. I gained nothing using them with this program. It was a waste of money.


Did you have the car tuned afterward? The virtue of the Shelby computer isn't that it runs the engine... it's that it can be tuned by any dyno shop with the HP Tuners software package.
Have you had the car on a dyno?


 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:
I also have the heavier duty springs for the valves that will turn up to 8200 rpms according to CHRFAB.



Be careful with RPM numbers like that. I've spoken with Alan several years ago about RPM limits, and he was of the opinion then that the engine wouldn't turn reliably to 8k without rods and pistons. The sequence of weak links was something like this: stock valvesprings just above stock redline, stock rod bolts to 7000, stock pistons to 7500 and stock rods to 8000.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-29-2015).]

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Report this Post01-29-2015 10:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Does SPEC make a flywheel for the F40 with the Northstar? The 282 flywheel isn't deep enough for the F40 with the flywheel space... Didn't FieroGuru design an aluminum F40 flywheel for his LS4? This only change required to use that on the Northstar should be bolt circle and crank pilot bore.


Blooze designed his own aluminum flywheel based on the LS4 flywheel that fieroguru designed. He has detailed drawings of the custom F40/N* flywheel in his build thread.
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Report this Post01-29-2015 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Sideway-swede:

Wow, those are some really nice numbers, especially in a car that weighs less than 2800 lbs!


Good luck with that. My '87 GT was 2895 with 1/2 tank of fuel, spare, jumper cables a couple of other odds and ends in the front compartment.
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Report this Post01-30-2015 12:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IXSLR8Click Here to Email IXSLR8Send a Private Message to IXSLR8Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There really isn't any vibration. The 272 cammed N* is smooth. I have my manual N* mounted using 4 mounts and an additional torque strut just for insurance. Its all mounted in polyurethane. I also have 4 polyurethane mounts with my auto trans stock cammed N* and there are no vibration issues. Both of the N*'s have been a very smooth engine under all operating conditions.

Drivability around town with the 272 cams is fine compared to stock. It doesn't really change the idle personality over stock because they are very mild cams.

The 288 cams will give about 75HP over stock at the same RPMs as the stock cams. True, but you have to have a tunable ECU to get those numbers.


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Report this Post01-30-2015 12:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IXSLR8Click Here to Email IXSLR8Send a Private Message to IXSLR8Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My understanding is that SPEC does now make a flywheel for the F40 Northstar combo and a clutch kit to go with it.

I had my car tuned after I installed the 272's. I'm not that thrilled with the tuning work nor with the 272 cam results. I still have the random stall (after spending $1200 in tuning). The dyno shop did use the HP Tuners software package for the shelby program. My dyno readings were around 256 HP at the wheels. Pretty average as far as I'm concerned.

Just reflecting the RPM numbers that Alan mentioned to me personally. He may have been thinking optimum engine parameters during that conversation. I haven't rebuilt my block nor checked it inch by inch so I don't go to those RPMS though I have the springs that allow for it. RPMS on the dyno were around 7200 if I remember right. It didn't do much after 6500. It was pretty flat if I remember right.
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IXSLR8

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http://specclutch.com/conversion_combos/view/30

F40 to N* Flywheel Part number: SC94ANF40 $449
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Report this Post01-30-2015 03:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:
I had my car tuned after I installed the 272's. I'm not that thrilled with the tuning work nor with the 272 cam results. I still have the random stall (after spending $1200 in tuning). The dyno shop did use the HP Tuners software package for the shelby program. My dyno readings were around 256 HP at the wheels. Pretty average as far as I'm concerned.



Yikes... my stock L37 with LD8 chip made 255 to the wheels. Your setup should be able to do much better than that with 272's and tunable computer.

Did the engine get LOUDER with the 272's? That's a significant duration increase over the 244 degree exhaust cam, so the exhaust valve is opening earlier when there's more residual pressure in the cylinder.
I don't guess you've tried a 272 intake with the 266 intake in the exhaust location, or even the stock 244 exhaust cam?

Regarding the stall... do you have a clutch switch installed? I have a clutch switch in my car and have never had a stalling issue with the Shelby computer.

See these for clutch switch info:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../000121-19.html#p739
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/126747.html
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