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Won't start, no compression by BOBBY D
Started on: 11-22-2014 02:30 PM
Replies: 30 (427 views)
Last post by: JohnWPB on 12-03-2014 12:54 AM
BOBBY D
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Report this Post11-22-2014 02:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DClick Here to Email BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
4 cyl,
Got the car for free. Won't start. PO tells me water pump went and he blew a head gasket.

Got the car home, oil is black. Try to start , turns over but nothing. Check I get spark, I spray starting fluid, still won't start. Check compression, very little to none, I thought the gauge was bad. Get new gauge same results. Pull the engine apart. Get the head off.

Gasket looks good but there is a very bad valve in the head, permenately open.

Anyone think one bad valve could have kept the engine from starting?

Any other things to check before I put it back together?
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Gall757
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Report this Post11-22-2014 03:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you tested all 4 cylinders, and all 4 have bad compression, then one valve cannot cause all of that. Do all 4 cylinders and piston tops look the same? I would closely examine the other valves.
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NW-Fiero
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Report this Post11-22-2014 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NW-FieroSend a Private Message to NW-FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Age of engine (miles)? Rings could also be leaking. Head could be warped depending on extent it was run with bad water pump.
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NW-Fiero
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Report this Post11-22-2014 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NW-FieroSend a Private Message to NW-FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

NW-Fiero

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Age of engine (miles)? Rings could also be leaking. Head could be warped depending on extent it was run with bad water pump.

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' 85 2m6 3.4PR
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theogre
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Report this Post11-22-2014 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Take off Oil lid, look at rockers, moves or not when try to start car?
No move then cam gear is dead.
See my Cave, Cam Gears

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[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 11-22-2014).]

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tebailey
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Report this Post11-22-2014 05:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ditto, timing gear.
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BOBBY D
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Report this Post11-22-2014 05:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DClick Here to Email BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Took the valve cover off, every thing moves when starting. As in all the rockers go up and down in a sequence that appears to be correct. Engine has 130,000 miles. Took the head off already. Pistons look good. No holes or anything.

I did find oil in the antifreeze when disconnecting hoses.

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Patrick
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Report this Post11-22-2014 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BOBBY D:

Check compression, very little to none, I thought the gauge was bad. Get new gauge same results. Pull the engine apart. Get the head off.


Kind of late now (with the head off), but did you try doing a compression test after squirting a bit of oil in each cylinder?

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-22-2014).]

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BOBBY D
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Report this Post11-22-2014 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DClick Here to Email BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Kind of late now (with the head off), but did you try doing a compression test after squirting a bit of oil in each cylinder?



I did not because the reading on #4 was 0, and #2 was 30. Being that bad I assumed it wouldn't be the rings.

Not exactly true, I did squirt some sea foam in each cylinder when I tried to start it.

[This message has been edited by BOBBY D (edited 11-22-2014).]

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Patrick
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Report this Post11-23-2014 01:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BOBBY D:

I did squirt some sea foam in each cylinder when I tried to start it.


I don't know for sure, but that might've washed off any residue of oil that remained on the rings... and made the compression worse.

I've had good luck (three times so far) putting about a tablespoon of ATF in each cylinder and letting it seep down for a day into the rings before trying to start an engine that's been sitting for years.
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tebailey
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Report this Post11-23-2014 10:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

I don't know for sure, but that might've washed off any residue of oil that remained on the rings... and made the compression worse.

I've had good luck (three times so far) putting about a tablespoon of ATF in each cylinder and letting it seep down for a day into the rings before trying to start an engine that's been sitting for years.


That trick also worked on a 1940 flat head that had been sitting for 40 years, and seized. ATF and a big pipe wrench.
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Arns85GT
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Report this Post11-23-2014 12:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had an engine with no compression, at least not enough to start it. After looking at the options to save it, it went to the recyclers.

Another working used engine is just way cheaper and way less of a PITA.

Arn
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Report this Post11-23-2014 02:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bob, you have a PM.
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BOBBY D
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Report this Post11-24-2014 09:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DClick Here to Email BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, I got every thing torn down. Timing was dead on. I am going to assume that the overheating caused the bad valve. Took a straight edge to the head and it is slightly warped. Going to reokace the head with a new / used one. New water pump and put it all back together and see what is what.

If it won't go, a good forum member has a good low milage replacment motor.
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Report this Post11-24-2014 09:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Overheating can cause:
Dead/dying rings and pistons
crack/warped heads and/or block
blowing head gaskets

Usually does not cause valve issues.

use NEW head bolts! Many OE ones are weak and can break.

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tebailey
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Report this Post11-24-2014 10:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Valve issue could have been caused by engine sitting a long time with that valve in the open position. But since the head will be replaced it's not an issue.
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rogergarrison
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Report this Post11-24-2014 02:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tebailey:

Ditto, timing gear.


Yup. perfect symptoms. Just because rockers are moving, dont mean they are when their supposed to. Chains can jump a few teeth.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-24-2014).]

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Patrick
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Report this Post11-24-2014 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Chains can jump a few teeth.


No timing chain on a duke.
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rogergarrison
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Report this Post11-24-2014 05:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Never owned one, sorry. Belts slip, or gears strip then...?
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BOBBY D
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Report this Post11-24-2014 10:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DClick Here to Email BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I pulled the cover and the gears line up. Not a timing issue. May have had the wires installed wrong, but I doubt it. I had the diagram out in the garage when I put the new plug wires on.
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jaskispyder
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Report this Post11-25-2014 08:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Never owned one, sorry. Belts slip, or gears strip then...?


One gear is fiber and it doesn't slip, it strips... If the valve train is moving the gears are fine (well, good enough to run the vehicle at that moment).
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Report this Post11-25-2014 09:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've seen a lot of Dukes with stripped gears, however that doesn't seem to be your problem. Since you have the heads off I would suggest putting some thin oil or trans fluid into the cyls and see if it drains straight through. If it does your rings are shot.
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Report this Post11-25-2014 11:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Every engine I ever had that spun like no compression had slipped time...granted everything I had has a timing chain. Ive never heard of an engine that spun free with any other problem other than something like all broken pistons or no cylinder head. Even extremely worn cylinders or rings will have SOME compression especially if you crank it a few minutes. You could squirt some oil down the plug holes and try cranking it to see if that gives it any compression. If it was a cracked block or head, it would have to be a pretty serious hole that would be obvious.
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Report this Post11-25-2014 11:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Every engine I ever had that spun like no compression had slipped time...granted everything I had has a timing chain. Ive never heard of an engine that spun free with any other problem other than something like all broken pistons or no cylinder head. Even extremely worn cylinders or rings will have SOME compression especially if you crank it a few minutes. You could squirt some oil down the plug holes and try cranking it to see if that gives it any compression. If it was a cracked block or head, it would have to be a pretty serious hole that would be obvious.


He checked the gears visually, no issues, he pulled the head.

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Report this Post11-25-2014 11:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How the timing gear should look... and align (notice dots).



Stripped gear... for other posters...

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post11-26-2014 09:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have found that it is far less expensive and time costly to replace a blown engine than to try and rebuild it. Many people who have done engine swaps typically have taken out perfectly good engines and some may have them for sale. Ask around, check the mall. That would be the most economical solution.

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Arns85GT
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Report this Post11-26-2014 12:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree Dennis. However, a guy has to learn on his own oft times.

[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 11-26-2014).]

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BOBBY D
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Report this Post11-29-2014 08:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DClick Here to Email BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I have everything back together. Change the oil in the mornining and put a new set of plugs and wires in it and we should be running.


I figured out why it wouldn't run or sputter or anything at all. I opened the manual and not only read but this time I comprehended where cylinder number 1 was. I had it in reverse order. Lol.

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BOBBY D
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Report this Post12-01-2014 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DClick Here to Email BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Went together easy and started right up.
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tebailey
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Report this Post12-01-2014 07:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sounds like you need a new compresion gauge. If the readings you listed were right it wouldn't be running.
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JohnWPB
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Report this Post12-03-2014 12:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Something definitely strange going on..... reversed wires / mixed up wires has absolutely nothing at all to do with compression. If you truly had no compression when you started, swapping plug wires would do absolutely nothing to change the compression.

There is some other factor here for sure......

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