Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions
  Ecotec LNF Swap - time someone did this! (Page 1)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 2 pages long:  1   2 
Previous Page | Next Page
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Ecotec LNF Swap - time someone did this! by BillS
Started on: 09-26-2014 03:45 PM
Replies: 75 (4019 views)
Last post by: jediperk on 01-11-2015 02:18 PM
BillS
Member
Posts: 593
From:
Registered: Apr 2000


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-26-2014 03:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BillSClick Here to Email BillSSend a Private Message to BillSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've seen a couple of normally aspirated swaps using the Ecotec, but so far no turbo versions. The LNF turbo engine is the stand out revolutionary version of this family. It is lighter than the V6, being all alloy, smaller than the V6, being a straight 4 (albeit with various things that stick out like turbochargers) and poses no problem swapping into a fiero, yet so many people seem to prefer the V8 swaps, which are old hat and frankly boring. Stock = 260 bhp (290 with a factory tune), and an after market tune kicks you up to 330 or so before you need to start looking at different parts bolted to the engine.

If you take a stock LNF engine and spend $2500 swapping out the turbo for a larger one, and get it tuned to suit, here is what you can end up with, without changing anything inside the engine:



That's on a chassis dyno, showing power at the wheels - the 407whp and 379 wtq equates to around 480 bhp and 445 Tq at the flywheel on a RWD car, and a bit more on a midengined car like the Fiero. In other words you get the same power as a new LT1 in a C7 Corvette, and the end result will weigh 5-600 lbs. less in a Fiero.

Who wants to be the first?

My Solstice is now off warranty, and I'll be bumping it up to this tune from the conservative 375 bhp I'd been using.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post09-26-2014 04:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There are some turbo Ecotec swaps running around, but none are using the LNF. Mostly because the tuning is a bit more of a pain to deal with than other engines.

I'd also not call V8 swaps "old hat" just because they are V8s. A modern V8 is hardly such, especially with VVT, or direct injection as the new Gen V SBCs all have. That wording is just asking for an argument to start up, rather than a useful discussion.

There have been plenty of threads about the LNF and why nobody has swapped it yet, as well. Other Ecotec engines can be had cheaper, are easier to set up, and throwing a turbo on, they can make those 400+ HP numbers too.

[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 09-26-2014).]

IP: Logged
DKcustoms
Member
Posts: 1071
From: Central NY
Registered: Oct 2013


Feedback score:    (15)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-26-2014 07:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DKcustomsSend a Private Message to DKcustomsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just to add on, I'd imagine that the size of the turbo required for 400+ Horsepower out of a 4cylinder would have an irritating amount of lag.
Not everyone wants that, either.

At a drag strip, sure you can wait for it to spool, but I think that would get old quick in street driving.

NA V8s don't have turbo lag but tons of power, plus the V8 rumble.

Everyone has their own way of doing things, I don't think the bashing is really necessary.
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post09-26-2014 08:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DKcustoms:
Just to add on, I'd imagine that the size of the turbo required for 400+ Horsepower out of a 4cylinder would have an irritating amount of lag.
Not everyone wants that, either.

At a drag strip, sure you can wait for it to spool, but I think that would get old quick in street driving.

NA V8s don't have turbo lag but tons of power, plus the V8 rumble.

Everyone has their own way of doing things, I don't think the bashing is really necessary.


You'd imagine wrong. With modern boost control and other technologies, lag is no longer really an issue. Turbochargers have come a long way in the last 30 years.
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-26-2014 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Twin Scroll and Variable Vane turbos throw lag out the window. Is it still there? Yes technically, but it is nowhere as obvious as it used to be.

How long can the LNF engines survive under that much abuse at 400+ wheel horsepower? I can see a big turbo Ecotec in one of my future Fieros.
IP: Logged
el_roy1985
Member
Posts: 295
From: Bismarck, ND, USA
Registered: Jun 2004


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-26-2014 10:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for el_roy1985Send a Private Message to el_roy1985Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Tried getting myself a LNF a few years ago, but the price was just too high. Ended up getting an LSJ instead for a great deal. Still have to get around to the install though...

For what it's worth though, it would definitely be a cool swap. The ecotec seems to be able to handle a good amount of power reliably.

[This message has been edited by el_roy1985 (edited 09-26-2014).]

IP: Logged
Super Duty Critter
Member
Posts: 527
From: Little Rock, Arkansas
Registered: Aug 2009


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-26-2014 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Super Duty CritterClick Here to visit Super Duty Critter's HomePageSend a Private Message to Super Duty CritterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The wife has a turbo Solstice and we threw a mild computer tune at it. It's a phenomenal engine. If I had the money and motivation it would be on the list of motors I'd consider for a swap. I've spoken to tuners who say 400 out of the stock motor is doable but I have my concerns that mechanical failure would be eminent at that level.
IP: Logged
Dennis LaGrua
Member
Posts: 13630
From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A.
Registered: May 2000


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 321
Rate this member

Report this Post09-26-2014 11:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Roger Thelin of Gainsville Florida did an Ecotec swap in a Fiero and was selling swap part. Don't know if he's still doing it but try to locate him and ask.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

IP: Logged
BillS
Member
Posts: 593
From:
Registered: Apr 2000


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2014 03:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BillSClick Here to Email BillSSend a Private Message to BillSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The guys that answered about the turbo are correct. The EFR series of twin scroll turbos are amazing and the 6758 I'll be using has a titanium compressor wheel, very light and lag just isn't an issue any more.

As for reliability, the bottom ends are built to be very strong as a multilayer alloy sandwich and seem to last well even at these power levels. If one wants insurance, it is only a set of after market rods and a set of forged Wiseco pistons away.

The limit on the engines is fueling. There isn't a wide range of DI injectors available, and the LNF uses the largest available. People shooting for more power than the high 400s need to run E47 or add a 5th injector to the manifold, or both. I'll be content with anything near what that plot I posted shows. It isn't about peak numbers anyway, it is about area under the curve as far as drivability and acceleration are concerned.


PS - by 'old hat' I didn't mean any disrespect for GM V8s, although I am not in favour of swaps that go backward - putting a V8 with a carb on it into a Fiero, for example. I simply meant that it had been done so many times before that there is no novelty to it. The LNF is new and interesting for a lot of reasons, not least of which is that they are now becoming more available and less expensive on the used market.

[This message has been edited by BillS (edited 09-28-2014).]

IP: Logged
jsmorter
Member
Posts: 124
From: creston ohio usa
Registered: Jun 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2014 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jsmorterClick Here to Email jsmorterSend a Private Message to jsmorterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Roger, please speak up if you are still selling mounts
IP: Logged
Dennis LaGrua
Member
Posts: 13630
From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A.
Registered: May 2000


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 321
Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2014 05:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jsmorter:

Roger, please speak up if you are still selling mounts



https://www.noidearecords.c...helinsells/kits.html

Ecotec Fiero swap parts.



IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
wftb
Member
Posts: 3661
From: kincardine,ontario,canada
Registered: Jun 2005


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2014 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Roger is not a member here and he does business over the phone .Great guy to talk to and his products are well made .As far as LNF specific parts go , all 2.0 -2.4 L ecotec blocks are almost the same .If you cant fabricate your own mounts , Roger's kit is a great way to start .
IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13444
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2014 07:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BillS:

The limit on the engines is fueling. There isn't a wide range of DI injectors available, and the LNF uses the largest available. People shooting for more power than the high 400s need to run E47 or add a 5th injector to the manifold, or both. I'll be content with anything near what that plot I posted shows. It isn't about peak numbers anyway, it is about area under the curve as far as drivability and acceleration are concerned.


I've been wondering about DI injector capacity.
Can the naturally aspirated intake manifold fit the DI head? That would allow mounting port injectors to augment the DI, instead of a "fogger" further up the intake tract.
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post09-28-2014 08:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BillS:
The guys that answered about the turbo are correct. The EFR series of twin scroll turbos are amazing and the 6758 I'll be using has a titanium compressor wheel, very light and lag just isn't an issue any more.

As for reliability, the bottom ends are built to be very strong as a multilayer alloy sandwich and seem to last well even at these power levels. If one wants insurance, it is only a set of after market rods and a set of forged Wiseco pistons away.

The limit on the engines is fueling. There isn't a wide range of DI injectors available, and the LNF uses the largest available. People shooting for more power than the high 400s need to run E47 or add a 5th injector to the manifold, or both. I'll be content with anything near what that plot I posted shows. It isn't about peak numbers anyway, it is about area under the curve as far as drivability and acceleration are concerned.


PS - by 'old hat' I didn't mean any disrespect for GM V8s, although I am not in favour of swaps that go backward - putting a V8 with a carb on it into a Fiero, for example. I simply meant that it had been done so many times before that there is no novelty to it. The LNF is new and interesting for a lot of reasons, not least of which is that they are now becoming more available and less expensive on the used market.


Are the LNF injectors larger than the ones on the turbo engine in the Buick Regal Turbo?

I agree about thorwing a carb in a Fiero. It's easy, but it's a) illegal and b) not very interesting. Anybody can throw a carbed engine in any car, regardless of how many cylinders it has (I've seen carbs used on the Duke, V6, and V8s in Fieros).

That said, I think the LTG or LHU are more interesting at this point than an LNF. The LHU is an E85-capable slightly higher performance version of the LNF, and the LTG is the third generation version of what the LNF/LHU was. It seems to have some improvements to the turbocharger and manifold, and has a slightly higher compression ratio. It's also a Gen III Ecotec engine, which has some other improvements to the block as well, and I believe all Gen III Ecotecs have the new variable displacement oil pump, which should help a little bit with efficiency. Of course, the LTG is probably less available and more expensive on the used market.

To me, a modern V8 is more interesting; and presents more of a challenge for a few things. So that's the route I'm going. But it's certainly far from "old hat."
IP: Logged
wftb
Member
Posts: 3661
From: kincardine,ontario,canada
Registered: Jun 2005


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2014 09:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You could probably use a Hahn racecraft port fueler with an LNF .The nice thing about a port fueler is it adds 4 more fuel injectors and has its own standalone controller .Map it any way you want , only works when you program it to . I am seeing more turbo/supercharge kits that include an extra port injector system for DI motors .
IP: Logged
KaijuSenso
Member
Posts: 911
From: Westland, MI
Registered: Jan 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2014 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KaijuSensoSend a Private Message to KaijuSensoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I've been wondering about DI injector capacity.
Can the naturally aspirated intake manifold fit the DI head? That would allow mounting port injectors to augment the DI, instead of a "fogger" further up the intake tract.


This was my first thought as well to try and mount a port injection intake from an earlier generation engine if the fuel injectors are a limiting factor for high performance builds.
The big OEMs are getting into using both port and direct injection. Toyota/Subaru with the FA20 engine and VAG with the EA888 gen 3 for example.
IP: Logged
BillS
Member
Posts: 593
From:
Registered: Apr 2000


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-29-2014 10:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BillSClick Here to Email BillSSend a Private Message to BillSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well the LNF is the one that is available more and more cheaply now. The LDK has very slight mods that don't amount to anything significant. The LHU is pretty much teh same, but the computer used with it has more tables for ethaniol use.

The LTG swapped sides for intake and exhaust, so not sure how much is interchengeable.

The DI injectors on the LNF are the largest available and put out enough fuel for more power per cylinder than the C7 engine. The C7 uses the same ones - 74 lb injectors.

At least one Kappa owner has added conventinal injectors in the intake to supplement the DI injectors - he is going for 500whp At least one supplier (Hahn) makes a supplementary port injection set up as wftb said.
IP: Logged
akademikjeanius
Member
Posts: 405
From: Dayton, OH
Registered: Feb 2011


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-30-2014 04:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BillS:


The DI injectors on the LNF are the largest available and put out enough fuel for more power per cylinder than the C7 engine. The C7 uses the same ones - 74 lb injectors.

At least one Kappa owner has added conventinal injectors in the intake to supplement the DI injectors - he is going for 500whp At least one supplier (Hahn) makes a supplementary port injection set up as wftb said.


A supposed temporary patch to DI limitations

[This message has been edited by akademikjeanius (edited 09-30-2014).]

IP: Logged
4thfiero
Member
Posts: 801
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Oct 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-30-2014 04:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Im almost done my ecotec turbo swap and will be updating my thread soon.

I went with an L61 2.4l out of a 2006 Cobalt SS with a stage 2 turbo kit, getting 350 hp at crank. certain versions of the l61 were built with stronger internals that can handle boost, 2--5-2007 or something like that. semi-forged components. They are much cheaper...they work with Rogers kit. and in my humble opinion are the faster engine. (no replacement for displacement) They are also MUCH easier to tune than the LNF. I was originally gonna go with the LNF but its much more money and you can't tune them as well. also some versions do not have VVT where as the L61 does. Making the turbo get near 100% volumetric efficiency. I got my engine/turbo kit and wiring harness from Alpha fab industries. They provide the full stand alone kit to run the engine. Then u just need the mounting kit from roger and your good to go. If u have more questions, call Alpha Fab Industries and talk to Shawn. Hope this helps!
IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13444
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post09-30-2014 07:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:
also some versions [of the LNF] do not have VVT where as the L61 does.


Didn't we already debunk this drivel?
Do you work for that outfit or something?
IP: Logged
akademikjeanius
Member
Posts: 405
From: Dayton, OH
Registered: Feb 2011


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-30-2014 10:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Didn't we already debunk this drivel?
Do you work for that outfit or something?


Actions speak louder than words. Only a matter of time before he has to show and prove. (No offense to you, 4thfiero. I pm'ed you eagerly inquiring about status a couple weeks back. Can't wait to hear how it performs!)
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Will
Member
Posts: 13444
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post10-01-2014 11:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm sure he'll build a great swap. I'm not saying anything about that.

But... EVERY LNF HAS VVT. [PERIOD]
IP: Logged
BillS
Member
Posts: 593
From:
Registered: Apr 2000


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-01-2014 03:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BillSClick Here to Email BillSSend a Private Message to BillSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wonder where that rumour got started - completely incorrect as has been pointed out.

The 2.4 engines have potential, but not as much as the stronger 2 litre engines. And some of the 2.4s came with powdered metal connecting rods, which I wouldn't want to run in a high output engine. The reason the LNF turbos can withstand high boost pressures is the direct injection and suitably shaped piston crowns that allow cooling so that they can run hypereutectic pistons rather than forged (if you want to head for 500 bhp, you need forged!). All LNFs have forged bottom ends, so nothing needed there for anything buy extreme output levels.

And I don't know where the idea that the tuning is harder with the LNF than the NA engines, because that is just wrong too. The LNF (and later iterations) are well known to any number of tuners and can be handled easily with HP Tuners or Trifecta.

How do these ignorant ideas get started, anyway? The true parts are that currently LNFs cost more than earlier Ecotecs, and that if you are going for middling power, a 2.4 with an added turbo or supercharger will get you to the same levels as a stock LNF - but then the LNF owner starts in with his tuning and mods and leaves you in the dust. I expect any advice to the contrary is because API only tunes and sells packages for the non-LNF engine range, so why would they tell customers the LNF was better?

If I were shooting for a mild 300+ a bit engine, the later (2007 and later, with the Gen 2 blocks) L61 2.2 or an LE5 2.4 would be a less expensive route to go.

[This message has been edited by BillS (edited 10-01-2014).]

IP: Logged
qwikgta
Member
Posts: 4520
From: Virginia Beach, VA
Registered: Jan 2001


Feedback score:    (21)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 83
Rate this member

Report this Post10-02-2014 09:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree that the Ecotec is a great engine, and I'd love to have one in my daily driver. Hooked to an AT with overdrive and all the comforts (A/C, CC). However, I have an LS376 in my 88 and i'd hardly call it "old hat". 480/475 stock w/out a tune. And the sound that it makes is incredible. No one will ever think its "Just a Fiero".



Rob

------------------


88 Coupe, CJB T-TOP, LS376 and a GT clip
88 GT, SIII 3800NA/Auto swap underway
LS Build Thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/083204.html
LS on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAH9yjw6XR0
3800 build thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089035.html

IP: Logged
foxgapfiero
Member
Posts: 2429
From: Bangor PA USA
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score:    (18)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-03-2014 07:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for foxgapfieroClick Here to Email foxgapfieroSend a Private Message to foxgapfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

I agree that the Ecotec is a great engine, and I'd love to have one in my daily driver. Hooked to an AT with overdrive and all the comforts (A/C, CC). However, I have an LS376 in my 88 and i'd hardly call it "old hat". 480/475 stock w/out a tune. And the sound that it makes is incredible. No one will ever think its "Just a Fiero".



Rob




Rob, remember that convertible I bought from you? It is still in the garage waiting to do this 4 banger swap. This is a great thread for me, tons of info.

IP: Logged
4thfiero
Member
Posts: 801
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Oct 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-03-2014 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Didn't we already debunk this drivel?
Do you work for that outfit or something?


Sorry let me rephrase, The 2.0 LSJ does not have vvt the 2.0 LNF does. However , because the lnf uses a Bosch controller that utilizes torque management only about oh I don't know less than half of the maps have been unlocked in HPT. This includes the cam tables. So the ability to dual in the vvt is limited. Like i said before im a middle man and Shawn at Alpha fab is the expert. And no i dont work for them, dont live anywhere near them, i was just really impressed with there work and advice. I really wanted to do an ecotec turbo swap, but the electronic nightmare prevented me from doing that, fusing 2 engine harnesses from 2 cars, its a mess! I wanted a good stand alone system, and thats when i found Alpha Fab. Makes the electronics sooo much easier, and i really think it will help other ppl who wanna do ecotec swaps. But anyways, don't take my word for it. Find out for yourselves if you want. Hope that clears it all up.

[This message has been edited by 4thfiero (edited 10-03-2014).]

IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post10-03-2014 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:
I really wanted to do an ecotec turbo swap, but the electronic nightmare prevented me from doing that, fusing 2 engine harnesses from 2 cars, its a mess! I wanted a good stand alone system,


http://www.haltech.com/halt...for-18th-of-october/

One of these would probably take care of all the things on the LNF.
IP: Logged
Dennis LaGrua
Member
Posts: 13630
From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A.
Registered: May 2000


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 321
Rate this member

Report this Post10-03-2014 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wonder how Don Nase Jr. is creating this much horsepower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnkI9hmAHBY

He comes out smoking with his Ecotec turbo!
------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 10-03-2014).]

IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post10-04-2014 10:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
I wonder how Don Nase Jr. is creating this much horsepower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnkI9hmAHBY

He comes out smoking with his Ecotec turbo!


Probably with a $20K+ investment in a full race build. But with sponsors like GM, Mobil-1, Roush, etc… the parts aren't that hard to come by.

Probably a 90mm bore Ecotec race block, forged crank/rods/pistons, 12:1 compression, 30psi boost, and race gas would do it, as long as the head and gasket can keep the pressure contained. Not all that different from how top fuel cars make 8000 HP from a 500 cid hemi.
IP: Logged
wftb
Member
Posts: 3661
From: kincardine,ontario,canada
Registered: Jun 2005


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-04-2014 08:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
looking at the comments this video is about 6 years old .So this ecotec is probably a built 2.2 L61 .That turbo looks bigger around than my lawnmower .Looked up this car - 2.2 ecotec , 1650 HP .and that was in 2007 .It holds the record for 4 cylinder engines in the class it runs in .I dont know if he still runs it or not .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-04-2014).]

IP: Logged
Dennis LaGrua
Member
Posts: 13630
From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A.
Registered: May 2000


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 321
Rate this member

Report this Post10-05-2014 04:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

looking at the comments this video is about 6 years old .So this ecotec is probably a built 2.2 L61 .That turbo looks bigger around than my lawnmower .Looked up this car - 2.2 ecotec , 1650 HP .and that was in 2007 .It holds the record for 4 cylinder engines in the class it runs in .I dont know if he still runs it or not .



Don Nase Jr of Jackson, NJ did in fact break and still hold the worlds record for 4 cylinder engines in his class. AFAIK, after breaking the record and still holding it, Don has stepped back and stopped racing this Ecotec monster with nothing more to prove. A 1600 HP Ectotec run on gasoline, is an incredible achievement and it may not ever be duplicated again. I still can't imagine how Don kept this aluminum block engine in one piece at that power level..

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
wftb
Member
Posts: 3661
From: kincardine,ontario,canada
Registered: Jun 2005


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-05-2014 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There were parts made back then that are not available now .GM made a racing block and heads , heavy duty forged crank and other stuff you cant get now .The block is O-ringed to take the boost but CR was fairly low with boost around 30 psi or so .Dry sump etc , only thing that remained stock on these engines was the cam chain .Hydraulic cam chain tensioner was replaced with a solid one that you can make yourself .
IP: Logged
4thfiero
Member
Posts: 801
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Oct 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-06-2014 06:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


http://www.haltech.com/halt...for-18th-of-october/

One of these would probably take care of all the things on the LNF.


Which translates into probably not, lol. guys on the ecotec forums were talking about the motec and haltec for the lnf, they have had some success. But not much. I guess again bcc only about half the maps were unlocked. So again limited to tune, not very efficient. And they abandoned the lnf and swapped in an lsj, l61 or LE5 turbo. Until someone super smart unlocks the rest of the maps will we be able to do a full stand alone lnf ecotec swap in a fiero without having to merge a stock LNF ecu with the Fiero BCU i guess.

I talked to Alpha fab again, they still support LNF swaps and tunes and did one apparently the other day, and as far as they know maybe 75% of the maps have been unlocked via hp tuners so far. But bcc the LNF uses torque management DI instead of EFI it makes it hard to get all the maps and it just boils down to the aftermarket tuning has not caught up yet. Check out there youtube channel below, they built a LE5 turbo dynoing over 500 hp! They still believe the LE5 is the best swap for both power, efficiency and tuning. Apparently the stock turbo on the LNF is really inefficient needing 30lbs of boost to make around 280 hp. Where as they use about 15 pounds of boost to get about 350. Even if we unlocked all the LNF maps and it was fully tunable...i think you can still get a better engine for less money out of the LE5 (with upgraded internals) than the price of an LNF and upgraded turbo. Much more expensive with less displacement. *shruggs* Makes sense to me.

I can't remember if i mentioned this or not but i did call them initially wanting to do an LNF swap, and they said they can if i wanted buuuuut....then told me all this stuff and let me decide what i wanted. Made way more sense to go with the LE5. The way i see it, the only thing the LNF has over the LE5, is stock fully forged internals. LE5 is semi-forged. But still good to boost (as you can see in the youtube video) Once u upgrade the internals of an LE5...i dont see it losing to an LNF in any regard.

Im sorry if i seem to be rambling or whatever. I just know there are a lot of ppl who wanna ecotec there cars just as bad as me on a limited budget, so giving out as much information about WHICH ecotec to choose and why seems important. Might change someones mind and save there wallet like i did, and if someone still wishes to go LNF thats cool too! Its your car, do what u think is cool. I just know how much i appreciate info like this. Anyways cheers guys!

https://www.youtube.com/cha...p247W8vv1fH-woOI2eig
IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13444
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post10-06-2014 07:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:

Until someone super smart unlocks the rest of the maps will we be able to do a full stand alone lnf ecotec swap in a fiero without having to merge a stock LNF ecu with the Fiero BCU i guess.



As I mentioned in the previous thread on DI engines, Trifecta can do stand alone tunes for the LNF and DI V6's.
Just because your favorite shop can't do it, doesn't mean no one can.
Where's that "no nut swinging" .jpg?

 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:

Check out there youtube channel below, they built a LE5 turbo dynoing over 500 hp! They still believe the LE5 is the best swap for both power, efficiency and tuning. Apparently the stock turbo on the LNF is really inefficient needing 30lbs of boost to make around 280 hp.


Apples/oranges... LE5 doesn't have a turbo stock, so everything in that system is aftermarket. Comparing an aftermarket system optimized for power to a stock system optimized for emissions, fuel economy and responsiveness is dumb. The same turbo on an LNF would kick the LE5 around the block.

I get what you're saying about bang for buck...

BUT, do everyone a favor and stop spewing mis-information. CORRECT information supports good decisions. Incorrect information is worse than worthless because it not only causes people to make bad decisions, it causes them to stop looking for correct information.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-06-2014).]

IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13444
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post10-06-2014 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


http://www.haltech.com/halt...for-18th-of-october/

One of these would probably take care of all the things on the LNF.


Short of Bosch Motorsport and MoTeC, I don't think any aftermarket ECU manufacturer has a good handle on DI.

EDIT: Magnetti Marelli probably has some motorsport options that can handle DI as well, since Ferrari is running it. Audi has been running DI at Le Mans for a decade and a half.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-06-2014).]

IP: Logged
Will
Member
Posts: 13444
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 234
Rate this member

Report this Post10-06-2014 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:

Sorry let me rephrase, The 2.0 LSJ does not have vvt the 2.0 LNF does.



Since I'm on this kick... Why the heck did you say some LNF's don't have VVT?
I think we all know the LSJ is a shadow of the LNF, so it's dumb to lump them both into the same basket.

 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:
only about oh I don't know less than half of the maps have been unlocked in HPT.


 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:
maybe 75% of the maps have been unlocked via hp tuners so far.


Well... which is it?
The pace of aftermarket tuning solutions is accelerating. The more common apps like the V8 engines get hacked within a couple of years of release of a new electronic architecture (E38, E40, E67, etc.). The less popular apps like the Ecotect take a little longer. It won't be very long at all until the LNF controller is fully hacked. I consider PCM differences to be moot because anyone doing an LNF swap can have a fun car now, then go back to the dyno in a year and find more power or better driveability because of the advancement of the understanding of the controller.

 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:
Which translates into probably not, lol. guys on the ecotec forums were talking about the motec and haltec for the lnf, they have had some success. But not much. I guess again bcc only about half the maps were unlocked.


Why would the fact that only half the maps are unlocked in the stock controller have any bearing on the degree of success someone has dealing with a completely aftermarket computer?

 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:
fusing 2 engine harnesses from 2 cars, its a mess!


Not sure why you're complaining about the standard way to build an engine swap harness...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-06-2014).]

IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post10-06-2014 10:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Short of Bosch Motorsport and MoTeC, I don't think any aftermarket ECU manufacturer has a good handle on DI.

EDIT: Magnetti Marelli probably has some motorsport options that can handle DI as well, since Ferrari is running it. Audi has been running DI at Le Mans for a decade and a half.


Well, I specifically mentioned the Haltech Elite, as looking at the short feature list they have listed for it on the announce page, it looks like DI might be a possibility with it. I've just e-mailed to ask them more explicitly about GM's SIDI and VVT configurations, though.
IP: Logged
4thfiero
Member
Posts: 801
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Oct 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-06-2014 11:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good grief Will....

So i guess u want an apology? sorry i mistyped my information that i later corrected but still made u feel like u had to reply like a ponse anyways?...my bad.

Will - I consider PCM differences to be moot because anyone doing an LNF swap can have a fun car now, then go back to the dyno in a year and find more power or better driveability because of the advancement of the understanding of the controller.

GREAT! i believe i already covered at the end of my post that if someone wants to do an LNF swap...DO IT! its your car! Fantastic! not sure why you have to comment on that.

Will - Why would the fact that only half the maps are unlocked in the stock controller have any bearing on the degree of success someone has dealing with a completely aftermarket computer?

Current efficiency and tuning JUST FYI FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW. I would have liked to know that before i choose an engine. And it made ME change my mind bcc of the type of build I wanted. May not be the same as what maybe YOU would want, but guess what? that's okay!

Will - Not sure why you're complaining about the standard way to build an engine swap harness...

Because some of us either don't know how to do it, are too scared to try or dont WANT to merge two harnesses for MANY other reasons. Was that not obvious to you? If u can and wish to do that, GREAT! I dont care! This is for ppl who dont. LIKE ME.


If you wanna do an LNF swap YOUR way whatever that means, then do whatever you want! If the info on this or other posts is of no use to you then leave it alone, If the info is in-accurate in some way (like when i messed on the vvt on lnf) then KINDLY correct the person and everyone can go on with there day. I have lots of members PM'ing me asking questions about my build and why i choose what blah blah blah, im only trying to help. Some of whom interestingly, NAMED you, and said "Dont worry about Will, guy loves to start crap over nothing" and one guy who wanted to ask some question in the forum (he was new) but didnt bcc he saw how ppl can go off on them and make them feel like idiots for asking... like....thats garbage, we are all here to help in a calm respectful way.

...you probably know a lot more about swaps and electronics and cars and Fiero's than I do Will, thats great, it really is. But no-one likes a "no it all" who doesnt know how to deal with ppl in a respectful manner. Just chill out, use your expertise in healthier ways and have some more discernment on how to talk to ppl.
IP: Logged
4thfiero
Member
Posts: 801
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Oct 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-06-2014 11:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

4thfiero

801 posts
Member since Oct 2012
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Well, I specifically mentioned the Haltech Elite, as looking at the short feature list they have listed for it on the announce page, it looks like DI might be a possibility with it. I've just e-mailed to ask them more explicitly about GM's SIDI and VVT configurations, though.


Cool! Let us know what they say!
IP: Logged
4thfiero
Member
Posts: 801
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Oct 2012


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-06-2014 11:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

4thfiero

801 posts
Member since Oct 2012
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Apples/oranges... LE5 doesn't have a turbo stock, so everything in that system is aftermarket. Comparing an aftermarket system optimized for power to a stock system optimized for emissions, fuel economy and responsiveness is dumb. The same turbo on an LNF would kick the LE5 around the block.

I get what you're saying about bang for buck...

BUT, do everyone a favor and stop spewing mis-information. CORRECT information supports good decisions. Incorrect information is worse than worthless because it not only causes people to make bad decisions, it causes them to stop looking for correct information.




I really dont believe that the same aftermarket turbo on an LE5 and LNF would result in the LNF "kicking" the LE5...LE5 has more displacement and has a lot of nice low end torque. I think the LE5 would still take the LNF. Both in power and everything else u mentioned.
IP: Logged
Previous Page | Next Page

This topic is 2 pages long:  1   2 
next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock