It's decision time for my project. I currently have an 87 Fiero GT 3800 SC that I am just completing the swap and starting to drive it.
My original intent with this project was to complete a 308 replica. I acquired the body kit first before I found a donor car. Originally, I was looking for a cosmetically challenged car, but I came across a much nicer car for not much more money.
I'd like to open this up for opinions on what would be more desirable in the end - Nicely done 87 Fiero GT with 3800SC conversion or - Nicely done 87 Fiero with 3800SC and 308 Body kit
In the end, I don't want to lose my shirt on this car. I realize I won't get it all back.
It's decision time for my project. I currently have an 87 Fiero GT 3800 SC that I am just completing the swap and starting to drive it.
My original intent with this project was to complete a 308 replica. I acquired the body kit first before I found a donor car. Originally, I was looking for a cosmetically challenged car, but I came across a much nicer car for not much more money.
I'd like to open this up for opinions on what would be more desirable in the end - Nicely done 87 Fiero GT with 3800SC conversion or - Nicely done 87 Fiero with 3800SC and 308 Body kit
In the end, I don't want to lose my shirt on this car. I realize I won't get it all back.
Can you keep the GT and finish it up properly and then find a poor condition notchie to use the body kit? Nothing wrong with having two Fieros
Look, if you do a 308 your gonna have a bunch of people come up to you, ask you 10,000 questions and you'll have to answer them all with "it's a replica."
If your going to completely destroy a fiero as it is then why not make a design that YOU made up. Creating something that is completely original will have people baffled and leave them with the impression that your very talented.
I was driving my brother's 308 kit one day & a guy complimented me on it, then asked if it was real. I told him it was a Fiero with a kit, but later thought of a better answer: "Can't you tell?". Insky: I'd do what you want - it's your car. You have the kit already? Research just how much you'll spend to complete it, including paint ($3500 to 5 grand to do it right), lights, wheels, accessories, etc. etc. - then add a grand or two & see if you want to spend that much for a replica. Keep in mind, a real 308 can be had far cheaper than most folks think, of course upkeep is quite expensive... I'd be glad to do the paintwork (or the whole thing) if you like. I've done two Meras so far (& a hell of a lot of other kits & restorations, custom fabrication, show cars, track cars, etc.)... ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
This is what I tell the Mera people but they insist on forking 20 grand of mods into the Fiero. I would much rather spend the 20 grand for a real one since I have seen them for that price or even cheaper.
I'd like to open this up for opinions on what would be more desirable in the end - Nicely done 87 Fiero GT with 3800SC conversion or - Nicely done 87 Fiero with 3800SC and 308 Body kit
In the end, I don't want to lose my shirt on this car. I realize I won't get it all back.
I see some really nice 3800SC fieros in The Mall for about $10-12,000. The last 3800SC 308 kit I saw sell belonged to a PFF member named Harold and I saw it sold twice within a year - once for $18500 and again for (reportedly) $25000. These are just data for you, but the 308 will always go for more than a stock car.
Keep in mind that there is also a considerable amount of work in getting that 308 finished. Mounting, aligning, fabrication, body and paint - a lot of fiberglass and body work. This all costs money. And don't forget to add the cost for those expensive OEM Ferrari lights and emblems. The only way to avoid this delay and cost is to buy a bolt-on kit - the only one I know of is the corson / aldino like I have.
PS. If you don't wanna lose your shirt, leave the car the way it is and simply maintain it .
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 08-11-2014).]
Yes you can find real ones for less than $20K. Like drivers says its the upkeep. You wont find a great one that has all the documentation for that though. Consider things like $5000 brake jobs, $15K-$20K engine overhauls, even little things like parking lite lenses...IF you can find them are hundreds of dollars. And they always need engine overhauls at less than 100K. To me that expense is not worth being able to just say its real. Thats why I always built the kits...so I could drive it and cheaper to fix. Even tune ups cost thousands. Nearly all major routine maintanance work requires engine and transaxle removal. I drive mine for my own pleasure...dont care if someone knows its a kit or not.
If you have a nice Fiero, dont tear it apart to do a kit. What I did was look for mechanically good ones that had a rough body and interior. If you do anyway, find someone that will take the original parts to restore another nice one.
Originally posted by IMSA GT: This is what I tell the Mera people but they insist on forking 20 grand of mods into the Fiero. I would much rather spend the 20 grand for a real one since I have seen them for that price or even cheaper.
And some people even swap the GM V6 into the real 308 to keep maintenance costs down.
Get any old Fiero with a decent frame that will cost you next to nothing and then turn that sows ear into a silk purse.
Drop a decent engine in, rebuild or boost it.
Just don't go overboard with trying to make it appear like a real Ferrari by spending tons of money on the inside or putting too many Cavallinos and Ferrari script everywhere on it.
It's a Fiero, the most versatile car of the last 3 decades. Be proud of it!
[This message has been edited by I FAR I (edited 08-11-2014).]
Keep in mind that there is also a considerable amount of work in getting that 308 finished. Mounting, aligning, fabrication, body and paint - a lot of fiberglass and body work. This all costs money. And don't forget to add the cost for those expensive OEM Ferrari lights and emblems.
Maybe you could sell the 308 body kit to help pay for the 3800 swap. Then you could do a really nice 3800 swap, without breaking the bank. Just an idea.
Yes, that one. It's a hack job. The Ferrari frame tubes were torch cut and left open... workmanship is terrible.
HOWEVER, I did build the strut top weldments for that car (a previous owner asked for help on this forum a few years back) which extended its suspension travel from about 1" rear jounce to stock Fiero travel.
The strut tops I built are visible in these two photos:
Get any old Fiero with a decent frame that will cost you next to nothing and then turn that sows ear into a silk purse.
It's still a sow's ear. No matter how much work goes into it, it's still a Fiero. The VIN says so. If you want a silk purse, buy a car that has a Ferrari VIN (or chassis number) to begin with...
IF you try to make it look authentic, kit or not...you have to do this. Ferrari puts their logo on everything from gauge faces to side mirrors. Theres at least a few dozen logo emblems on a 308/328. If you dont go overboard like the factory, just dont put any Ferrari emblems at all on.
"Just don't go overboard with trying to make it appear like a real Ferrari by spending tons of money on the inside or putting too many Cavallinos and Ferrari script everywhere on it."
It's still a sow's ear. No matter how much work goes into it, it's still a Fiero. The VIN says so. If you want a silk purse, buy a car that has a Ferrari VIN (or chassis number) to begin with...
You say that like it' a bad thing!
They're both just cars....One has a higher (perceived) value and one has a more practical value. I've driven both (Ferrari 328 and my 308 rebody) and in relative terms of performance, cost, maintenance and repairs, plus fun factor, the Fiero gets my vote.
Being able to make it look and run like an exotic at a fraction of the price is a huge bonus.
[This message has been edited by I FAR I (edited 08-15-2014).]
IF you try to make it look authentic, kit or not...you have to do this. Ferrari puts their logo on everything from gauge faces to side mirrors. Theres at least a few dozen logo emblems on a 308/328. If you dont go overboard like the factory, just dont put any Ferrari emblems at all on.
"Just don't go overboard with trying to make it appear like a real Ferrari by spending tons of money on the inside or putting too many Cavallinos and Ferrari script everywhere on it."
I gladly let people know my car is a Fiero and although I have a chrome Cavallino and 308 script on the back, the word 'Ferrari' is on only one area of my car -- the little hood emblem.
As for a re-body kitcar and/or Mera, they look so similar to each other, if not the real 308s, I see no point in splitting hairs.
In any regard, a good motor and upgraded suspension in any Fiero, whether on a stock body, or a re-body kitcar, is a fine car imo.
[This message has been edited by I FAR I (edited 08-16-2014).]
If you want a replica, buy a real one. You'll probably spend more getting it to be a true duplicate. If you want the 308 appearance, but aren't stuck up on duplicating exact details, then you can create a fantastic daily driver for quite a bit less. It'll still be expensive, but if you concentrate on fit and finish you'll be proud of the result and you won't deal with the insane upkeep of the real one. I still think you should build the 308 on a tired, beat-up notchie.
[This message has been edited by Neils88 (edited 08-13-2014).]
I did some looking. Ferrari's are kinda expensive! Most listed in Hemmings are at auctions, quite a few in five figures are around 60, the really cheap ones happen to feature a 2.8 liter V6. The 30K and south often don't include photos. I did find one in Houston with a lengthy description from which a cynic might conclude it's been in an accident, flood, hurricane, stolen, driven hard who knows how many miles, etc. The owner claims otherwise in wonderful detail.
The maintenance on a real one might not be any more challenging than building a replica. The problems don't sound a whole lot different from what we are used to with the Fiero. The Houston guy chronicles finding a replacement bracket for a decklid strut mount which he ended up replacing with an aluminum one from an outfit that sounds like Rodney Dickman or numerous others on PFF. He also mentions not being able to lock the doors for lack of a key. "Just don't take it to a Ferrari dealer," he says. Sound familiar?
It may be that the really high service prices have more to do with the clientele than the complexity. Most people who buy such cars are not going to work on them. They pay very high prices for a lot of things. Remember the four dollar glass of orange juice in Risky Business?
Not everyone pays those prices. I've seen many a Rolls wandering around a Chicago neighborhood apparently searching for a garage right under the El that works on them. Most of us maintain our Fiero for a tiny fraction of what even non-dealer shops would charge.
The '308-ish' option might be best for you since you already have a kit. Make a few mods and/or leave off the Ferrari badging and you could have something unique.
Some uber cars are so rare they're almost one-offs. A guy driving some kind of sports car pulled into a McDonald's where I usually eat and snuck into the drive thru lane. The license said 'Virage'. What's that mean? Apparently it's an Aston Martin V-8. Some years and models less than ten were made. The other people watching criticized his driving but didn't even comment on what kind of car it might be. I would have thought Jag or Viper except for the plate.
There are lots of Ferrari models. Make a few changes to your kit and you could have something very interesting and not out of character for a Fiero or a Ferrari, thus maybe not hate-worthy in the eyes of real-308 owners.
I did some looking. Ferrari's are kinda expensive! Most listed in Hemmings are at auctions, quite a few in five figures are around 60, the really cheap ones happen to feature a 2.8 liter V6. The 30K and south often don't include photos. I did find one in Houston with a lengthy description from which a cynic might conclude it's been in an accident, flood, hurricane, stolen, driven hard who knows how many miles, etc. The owner claims otherwise in wonderful detail.
The maintenance on a real one might not be any more challenging than building a replica. The problems don't sound a whole lot different from what we are used to with the Fiero. The Houston guy chronicles finding a replacement bracket for a decklid strut mount which he ended up replacing with an aluminum one from an outfit that sounds like Rodney Dickman or numerous others on PFF. He also mentions not being able to lock the doors for lack of a key. "Just don't take it to a Ferrari dealer," he says. Sound familiar?
It may be that the really high service prices have more to do with the clientele than the complexity. Most people who buy such cars are not going to work on them. They pay very high prices for a lot of things. Remember the four dollar glass of orange juice in Risky Business?
Not everyone pays those prices. I've seen many a Rolls wandering around a Chicago neighborhood apparently searching for a garage right under the El that works on them. Most of us maintain our Fiero for a tiny fraction of what even non-dealer shops would charge.
The '308-ish' option might be best for you since you already have a kit. Make a few mods and/or leave off the Ferrari badging and you could have something unique.
Some uber cars are so rare they're almost one-offs. A guy driving some kind of sports car pulled into a McDonald's where I usually eat and snuck into the drive thru lane. The license said 'Virage'. What's that mean? Apparently it's an Aston Martin V-8. Some years and models less than ten were made. The other people watching criticized his driving but didn't even comment on what kind of car it might be. I would have thought Jag or Viper except for the plate.
There are lots of Ferrari models. Make a few changes to your kit and you could have something very interesting and not out of character for a Fiero or a Ferrari, thus maybe not hate-worthy in the eyes of real-308 owners.
Excellent post!
Over 20 years ago when I had first learned of kit cars for Fieros, I was at a junkyard auction looking for a Fiero that I could do a kit project with.....There was a gray with red interior 308 GTS parked on the street.......I waited until the owner came out and (ignorant of the differences at that time) asked if his car was 'real'.....The guy smiled and said 'yes'. I told him of my mission at the time and he then went on to tell me that there were many completed kit cars to be found south of the border (in the USA) that could be bought.
He was a really nice guy, who took the time to show me his car and speak on some of its driving characteristics etc. in addition to telling me of another option to pursue in my goal of owning a 'replica'. In the grand scheme of things, building a kit car is not that expensive......Just look at a vendor like EVM_Rob.
A few years after I had built my car, my girlfriends neighbour at the time bought a fine example of the last year 328 and took me for an unforgettable ride, then let me drive the car.....COOL GUY!!!
I've also come across a shop in Toronto that specialises in repairing Ferraris and the owner told me that I had done 'the right thing' in building a kit, as 'you need 5 grand on hand all the time just in case something goes wrong with the real 308s and 15 gs in the case of a BB boxer' and that was over 10 years ago.
When Nick, my girlfriends neighbour, took me out in his 328, I nearly **** myself when he was banging gears and that Ferrari motor was howling away at redline......AWESOME......It was truly an unforgettable experience being a passenger while the car was driven by an owner who knew how to work his car - the right way!
After he let me drive and when finished I got back into my Fiero, I felt pretty good about our cars in relative terms -- and that's before mine was force fed. A few times I've even had very nice runs with real Ferrari 308s on highways and once got a thumbs up at the end. That's how it should be. Most car fans and gear heads should be able to show camaraderie and respect to other motor heads regardless of the status or lack of status their cars may have.
Nowadays, real 308s and 328s are rising in price, so if someone wants to get one -- start saving now, because they aren't going to get cheaper anytime soon. Have you seen the price of 246 Dinos the last few years? Ouch!
Fieros otoh, are still regarded lightly, despite all the things that can be done to improve them. Considering that many of these old cars, unloved by many, but adored by a fanatic few, are causing a lot of ruckus within the world of gear heads on YouTube etc., I hope that over time they live up to their name and make us all PROUD.
The point I'm trying to make is, that not all Ferrari owners are difficult towards Fiero kit cars or their owners; but some other people, usually the wannabes who don't own a Ferrari and are sycophantic badge worshippers; or some snobby owners, can be outright 'Richard heads'. It's not just because of those guys that I keep my kit car looking and running well, it's also because the car has proven itself to be great affordable fun all these years and is worth the time and effort.
Yea, I know, 'it's just a Fiero'.......but it's *my* Fiero.......and if anyone doesn't like it -- they can bite it!
[This message has been edited by I FAR I (edited 08-15-2014).]
They're both just cars....One has a higher (perceived) value and one has a more practical value. I've driven both (Ferrari 328 and my 308 rebody) and in relative terms of performance, cost to maintain and repair, plus fun factor, the Fiero gets my vote.
Being able to make it look and run like an exotic at a fraction of the price is a huge bonus.
Ferrari actually puts a lot of engineering into (some aspects of) their cars. GM's engineering priorities are... different. Any Ferrari was a serious car when it was built. The Fiero... wasn't.
I like that my Fiero is faster for cheaper than a Ferrari would be... Cadillac power makes that happen. However, the time/dollars I put into the Fiero need to be to enhance my technical skills because the market doesn't pay for mods. Time an effort put into a Ferrari typically pays off...
Originally posted by Will: Ferrari actually puts a lot of engineering into (some aspects of) their cars. GM's engineering priorities are... different. Any Ferrari was a serious car when it was built. The Fiero... wasn't.
I like that my Fiero is faster for cheaper than a Ferrari would be... Cadillac power makes that happen. However, the time/dollars I put into the Fiero need to be to enhance my technical skills because the market doesn't pay for mods. Time an effort put into a Ferrari typically pays off...
It's not just engineering that counts either. They pay more attention to design. Ferraris aren't mass market for a reason. GM products are. A dash in a Ferrari isn't just a piece of plastic that came out of a big industrial machine that made 5 million of them. Lower production cars from GM tend to do better, but they still lack the artesian touches of Ferrari and Lamborghini.
Ferraris are race cars sold to drive on the streets. Having done lots of work on them for the local Ferrari dealer and owners, I will say lots of them just like cars and respect the time to build one from scratch. There are always going to be the snobs with them that think their poo dont stink. Same as with Corvette people in general. The only real reasons I had my Corvettes was a little free advertising for me and fun road trips with the local club. I finally got tired of their holyier than thou additude about any other car but Corvettes and sold them, dropped out of the club. I just found out a few others did the same thing last week.
It's not just engineering that counts either. They pay more attention to design. Ferraris aren't mass market for a reason. GM products are. A dash in a Ferrari isn't just a piece of plastic that came out of a big industrial machine that made 5 million of them. Lower production cars from GM tend to do better, but they still lack the artesian touches of Ferrari and Lamborghini.
Ferrari's approach is interesting, though. At least for the older cars like the 308's, they put money into the things that make the car a Ferrari... Engine, suspension, brakes, wheels, styling, paint, leather upholstery and general materials quality (very nice carpet, for example; also the polished chromed steel plate next to the gas pedal). However, some of the things are just a cheap as the things GM uses, like window switches. The door panels and interior structure are not durable or particularly well made. They're just stylish and finished in nice leather. A 308's fiberglass wheel house liners look like a 3 year old made them compared to the engineering in GM's injection molded plastic wheel house liners... but nobody ever sees the Ferrari parts, and they don't take much time to install in Ferrari's one-at-a-time production environment with use of a wet layup manufacturing process that doesn't add much cost to the car, compared to other parts. GM's production volume and assembly line process dictates the MUCH greater degree of engineering that goes into their corresponding parts.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-14-2014).]
My personal opinion is that I could go for a Mera because of the degree of engineering that went into that body... but I think any kit is going to be a maintainability and/or durability disaster.
Originally posted by Will: Ferrari's approach is interesting, though. At least for the older cars like the 308's, they put money into the things that make the car a Ferrari... Engine, suspension, brakes, wheels, styling, paint, leather upholstery and general materials quality (very nice carpet, for example; also the polished chromed steel plate next to the gas pedal). However, some of the things are just a cheap as the things GM uses, like window switches. The door panels and interior structure are not durable or particularly well made. They're just stylish and finished in nice leather. A 308's fiberglass wheel house liners look like a 3 year old made them compared to the engineering in GM's injection molded plastic wheel house liners... but nobody ever sees the Ferrari parts, and they don't take much time to install in Ferrari's one-at-a-time production environment with use of a wet layup manufacturing process that doesn't add much cost to the car, compared to other parts. GM's production volume and assembly line process dictates the MUCH greater degree of engineering that goes into their corresponding parts.
Right. GM's mass market targeting means they need to invest more money in big tools to mass produce big parts like that, so the tools used are quite an engineering marvel in some cases. The mill & drill machine used on the Fiero space frame for example is very cool from an engineering perspective. But then they took a cool and well engineered space frame and threw a bunch of parts bin stuff on it for things like suspension. Ferrari and GM have both gotten quite a bit better at a few things, since the 80s though.
Originally posted by Will: ... but I think any kit is going to be a maintainability and/or durability disaster.
I disagree. Much depends on the level of care taken to build the kit. Not all kit cars are slapped together. I've been driving my 308 kit since '96 (albeit on a completely restored chassis and powertrain) and I haven't experienced maintainability nor durability issues with the exception of common wear and tear items like tires and ball joints. As for the fiberglass body, if care is taken to design proper supports and the body is mounted securely then things like stress cracks can be avoided altogether.
I disagree. Much depends on the level of care taken to build the kit. Not all kit cars are slapped together. I've been driving my 308 kit since '96 (albeit on a completely restored chassis and powertrain) and I haven't experienced maintainability nor durability issues with the exception of common wear and tear items like tires and ball joints. As for the fiberglass body, if care is taken to design proper supports and the body is mounted securely then things like stress cracks can be avoided altogether.
Some really good and pertinent points were made in all the above posts, but I'm with Bloozberry on this one because I had my Fejer kit done in 1993........Meras are essentially the same as every other 308 kit, Bloozberry's car excepted, as his is a Stinger; but putting together a Mera, or any of the other 308/328 kits which were made off of the same type mold, is really no different than the cars put together by Corporate Concepts imo.
Thanks for all the replies and debate. I am currently leaning towards completing the kit with some potential modifications. I am not out to try to make people think I am driving a Ferrari, and I will take pride is saying it is a kit that I put together. I would still like to put some miles on the 3800 conversion and make sure those bugs are worked out.
then why not make a design that YOU made up. Creating something that is completely original will have people baffled and leave them with the impression that your very talented.
