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3800SC Oil Pressure and priming issue by azmrtwo
Started on: 05-22-2014 06:41 PM
Replies: 9 (366 views)
Last post by: azmrtwo on 08-01-2014 05:54 PM
azmrtwo
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Report this Post05-22-2014 06:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for azmrtwoClick Here to visit azmrtwo's HomePageSend a Private Message to azmrtwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am nearing the completion of my 3800SC conversion and wanted to make sure everything is correct.

After hearing the horror stories of failed intake gaskets and oil priming issues I replace the LIM gaskets, supercharger oil, and turned the motor over with a jump box and no spark plugs.

Surprisingly, the LIM gaskets were failed even though the motor only had 19k miles on it.

Not surprising, the oil pump would not prime. I tried multiple tricks I found on the board; putting in quart after quart, titling the motor, etc. – still no oil coming out of the pushrods. My last resort before taking the timing cover off and packing the oil pump with Vaseline was to try the tube of oil in the oil pressure sensor hole and turning the motor over backwards.

Just before trying that, my buddy suggested turning the motor over with the oil pressure sensor out and see if oil comes out…sure enough it pumped out so it is obviously primed.

I have turned it over with the jump box a dozen times for about 10 seconds each (spraying oil in the cylinders to protect them of course) but should I be worried that no oil is coming out of the pushrods or is that because I am not turning it over at a high enough RPM?
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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post05-22-2014 10:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dumping oil into the pressure sending unit hole isn't going to do any good if it can't flow backwards thru the oil filter.

1) What you need to do is slip something into one of the small holes of the oil filter (these are the smaller holes or slots that surround the center threaded hole) to hold open the internal rubber check valve of the filter so oil will be permitted to flow backwards thru it.

2) Fill the oil filter with as much oil as it will hold then install it.

3) Connect a tube to the oil pressure sending unit hole on the engine and fill it with oil (I install a funnel in this tube to help with this).

4) Rotate the engine backwards (counterclockwise) by hand and observe the oil level in the funnel/tube. It should go down (get sucked into the engine) as you rotate the engine backwards. If it does not, your oil filter's check valve is blocking it.

5) Once your engine has consumed about 1/2 pint this way, stop. Remove the hose/funnel and install a 0-100 psi pressure gauge into the oil pressure sending unit port. Make sure the engine is filled with motor oil at this point.

6) Crank the engine over with the starter & all spark plugs removed and see if you get pressure to build. You should see at least 20 - 70 psi or so. Once you see oil pressure, you can continue to crank for up to 15 seconds maximum (do not crank the starter for longer than this as it could overheat). Allow at least 1 minute between 15sec cranking intervals for the starter to cool.

Once you build oil pressure while cranking, you are good to go. You can pull the oil filter off and remove whatever you slipped into one of the smaller holes or slots to hold open the check valve. Or you can just leave it in there as it won't get into the engine from one of those ports if it happens to get pushed thru into the filter itself.

-ryan

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OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 05-22-2014).]

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azmrtwo
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Report this Post05-23-2014 12:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for azmrtwoClick Here to visit azmrtwo's HomePageSend a Private Message to azmrtwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Darth, I really appreciate the detailed response.

Although, I did not think I needed to do the reverse crank process since I am getting oil pressure at the sender now. I couldn't hold it back with my finger, but it is not making it up to the pushrods (with the sender installed).

As you suggested, I should probably put a gauge on it to see how much pressure I am getting since the finger test probably isn't an official measurement.

Should oil make it up through the pushrods during cranking?
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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post05-23-2014 08:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by azmrtwo:

Darth, I really appreciate the detailed response.

Although, I did not think I needed to do the reverse crank process since I am getting oil pressure at the sender now. I couldn't hold it back with my finger, but it is not making it up to the pushrods (with the sender installed).

As you suggested, I should probably put a gauge on it to see how much pressure I am getting since the finger test probably isn't an official measurement.

Should oil make it up through the pushrods during cranking?


It may take some time for the oil to make it up to the pushrods if you are cranking it over with just the starter. I don't think I would rely on that as a gauge as to whether or not the engine is getting oil pressure.

The better way of knowing would be to install a mechanical gauge and measure actual pressure. If actual pressure is present while cranking, you should be good to go.
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aaronkoch
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Report this Post05-24-2014 09:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Double check that the pressure relief spring is installed.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/000133-5.html#p178


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Build thread for my 88 + 3800NA swap

[This message has been edited by aaronkoch (edited 05-24-2014).]

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azmrtwo
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Report this Post05-25-2014 02:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for azmrtwoClick Here to visit azmrtwo's HomePageSend a Private Message to azmrtwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wish that was the case but the plunger and spring are installed. A mechanic friend of mine is suggesting the lifters might be clogged from sitting for 6 years and that we should replace them and if it's not them then it could be pieces of a filter that grenaded in its previous life and is clogging the oil passages. I have read stories of both but have also read that the it can take a minute or two of actually running the motor for the lifters to pump up and oil to work it's way up to the top for the first time. So, pull it out and tear it apart or keep moving forward and fire it up knowing that I may be tearing it apart and replacing the lifters with it in the car?
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aaronkoch
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Report this Post05-27-2014 12:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just spin it with the starter with the plugs out. If you're not loading the bearings, it won't do damage to let 'er spin for a while to see what happens..
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azmrtwo
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Report this Post05-27-2014 01:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for azmrtwoClick Here to visit azmrtwo's HomePageSend a Private Message to azmrtwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yep, did exactly that... in my initial post: "I have turned it over with the jump box a dozen times for about 10 seconds each (spraying oil in the cylinders to protect them of course)..." with no success. I really think it is going to be the lifters. It's like $150 (right?) and another couple of hours. I might just do it for sanity sake at this point.
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IanT720
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Report this Post05-27-2014 01:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was always under the impression oil doesn't reach the top end of a running engine for up 10 secs or so and thats at 1500 rpm. Not 300 with the starter. Maybe? Idk.

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1987 Fiero GTX 3800 Turbo... My Build, ST3 Cam, Lowered, Wheels, and pics enjoy!http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089483.html

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azmrtwo
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Report this Post08-01-2014 05:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for azmrtwoClick Here to visit azmrtwo's HomePageSend a Private Message to azmrtwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thank you all for your input. It ended up not being a problem. I decided to just fire it up and see if she was noisy and she wasn't.

I completed it in June and have put about 700 awesome miles on it already while averaging 22mpg with lots of foot-in-the-supercharger.

A special thanks to Darth Fiero (Sinister Performance) for all of his advice over the years, parts, and an awesome tune. Darth has been helping me during my sporadic adventures since October of 2008! Now it's done, flew through emissions, and runs great so its time to enjoy it and tweak it as I go! Thanks again!

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1986 Fiero GT - 2002 Series II 3800SC, 3.6" Pulley, ZZP Exhaust Log, 4spd Muncie, Toyota FJ Yellow, Lowered, and a Darth Fiero Tune
Swap completed in June 2014
Featured in The Fiero Store calendar in 2012
Check out the build pics and videos: www.mr2bug.com

[This message has been edited by azmrtwo (edited 08-01-2014).]

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