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i need more help on my 87 gt i don't know what to do engine will not start by classic ccg
Started on: 03-01-2014 09:12 PM
Replies: 17 (404 views)
Last post by: classic ccg on 03-22-2014 11:38 AM
classic ccg
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Report this Post03-01-2014 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for classic ccgClick Here to Email classic ccgSend a Private Message to classic ccgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Okay here is what we know:

Spark appears to be strong. 3 ignition modules, two ignition coils, two distributors, checked DC voltage at distributor and ignition coil, all appear to be good. Two parts stores verified the ignition modules. New plug wires, dizzy cap and rotor button.

Timing. Set ignition timing to spec, then 'rotated" the plug wires at dizzy cap 3 terminals ~180 degrees worth, still nothing.

Disconnected the wire going to Tach filter, in case it somehow had shorted.

Verified the Harmonic balancer/front pulley has NOT slipped. Found TDC with coat hanger down #1 cylinder, TDC timing mark was also TDC.

Did get the engine to stumble/somewhat run for 1 second when the distributor was moved (far) away from set timing.

This is while using ether/starting fluid.

Previous owner stated they thought it was timing, their English was not too good.

So, I am leaning towards cam timing/slipped chain. The replacement chain and gears appear to be very robust and a relatively short chain, so slippage does NOT look too likely.

Then another very unique problem:
The rear spark plugs have an unusual feel to them. 13/16" and 5/8" sockets do not fit. Plugs seem/feel to have a rubber bushing? blocking access to the "nut" Front plugs were normal. Will lower/pivot the cradle within a few days, gain access and visual to the rear plugs.

Fuel tank was cleaned out and fuel pump replaced. Fuel pressure was checked at Schrader valve at 42 PSI, engine not running of course.

Any suggestions? Surely this phenomenon has happened before.

Oh, the $10 Rodney Hickman headlight repair kit worked liked a charm. Car does not run, but new headlight switch, $10 kit, $3 brake cleaner gave us working headlights and power door locks!
Maybe we need better priorities.

and to phonedawgz and its a yes to all 3


Since the car sat for a while and considering your troubleshooting my first suspect would be clogged injectors.

However before going there lets check a few things. If the ECM isn't running it won't fire the injectors. The ignition system will operate without the ECM so the fact that it fired on starting fluid doesn't eliminate the ECM not running. If your ECM isn't running the most likely suspect of that is that the ECM isn't getting power.

So first thing is to note does the check engine light come on with the key on engine off? It should.
Does the fuel pump run for two seconds when you first turn the key on (no cranking) and then does it shut off? It should. If the answer to both of these questions is no, then you need to look at why the ECM isn't running. If one or both is yes then the ECM is running.

If you have both of the previous questions as yes, then the next thing to do is to just bump the starter and see if the fuel pump turns on for two seconds and then turns off again. If so that indicates that the ignition system is sending a signal to the ECM. Note - this test is only valid with ONLY a bump of the starter. If you crank the engine with the starter you will build up oil pressure. The fuel pump relay has a back up redundancy in the oil pressure switch. If oil pressure is built up the oil pressure switch will turn on and the fuel pump will run.

So now if questions 1, 2 and 3 are all that they are working properly, then the thing to do is to pull the injectors and soak their tips in injector cleaning fluid overnight. That will free the injectors. Replace the O rings on the injectors before re installing them.
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cmechmann
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Report this Post03-01-2014 09:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For your spark plug problem, it sounds like you have part of the spark plug wire boots stuck on them. The last 1/2 inch or so. The ones on the front I take a mirror to look down the plug galley to see. You can normally use a coat hanger to "peel" the remaining part of the boot off.
Put your dist. back to TDC and don't screw with it again until you get it running. Don't use the rotor for dist. TDC, use the points of the pickup. With no. 1 piston at TDC have the the pickup points come together. This gives you at least electrical TDC.
Borrow someones compression gauge to check for mechanical problems. Saves time in the long run.
Find an LED. They are like a dollar at RAT SHACK. Remove one of the injector connectors(the easier the better. Install LED the in the connector. Have someone crank it. See if LED flashes. If it don't flash, turn it around(will only work one way). This is a cheap noid light. That will tell you if at least the ECM is controlling the injectors or not. If not check for voltage on at least one side of the connector(blown injector fuse). If that's OK and still no flash and you are SURE no pick up coil, module and related wire problem, then you have a ECM problem.
I have seen pick up coils strong enough to drive the module, but too weak to also drive the ECM.
At this point you would have have covered 2 of the 3 things needed
Compression, Fuel, Fire.
For fire the cheapest is to take an old beater spark plug. Open the gap wide. Just a tiny bit less than the distance from the electrode and the side of the plug.
So it shoots to the electrode instead of the side.
They do sell a spark tester for this though. Looks like a fat spark plug with adjustable gap.
Put it in the coil wire first. Should be a nice bright yellow/orange fat spark. If it is a white/blue normally a fine line, it's weak.
Then check at least 2 of your spark plug wires should be just as bright. If it was good at the coil, but not at the wires. Check for a pin hole(looks like a tiny pencil mark) in your rotor. Or you have crap wires.
If you have that and the plugs are not fuel fouled, it should start unless you missed something of this or before.

[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 03-01-2014).]

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classic ccg
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Report this Post03-01-2014 11:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for classic ccgClick Here to Email classic ccgSend a Private Message to classic ccgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
im sorry but I did a Compression on #1,3,5 100, 105, 105 PSI what do you think?
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Report this Post03-01-2014 11:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Could be a little better. But could be a lot worse.
Should do compression test with all plugs out. With fuel pump fuse out. Coil disconnected. Throttle held open . With battery well charged. Should only need 3-4 revolutions to bring it up. squirt a little oil into the cylinders to make sure the rings are not contracted from sitting or cold. Also to rule out light rust on valve seats. Both of which would go away once you got it started.
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Report this Post03-09-2014 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for classic ccgClick Here to Email classic ccgSend a Private Message to classic ccgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ok so this is a long shot but what if the timing chain is bad?

the people we got the car from told us it had a bad back fire maybe it skiped time?

what do you guys think
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Report this Post03-09-2014 01:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Always a possibility....but never a probability. Check and double check the firing order and basic distributor issues.

You can figure out the timing chain easy enough by getting #1 cylinder to top dead center and looking at the rotor/cap lineup.

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 03-09-2014).]

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Report this Post03-09-2014 01:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ToosheaClick Here to Email ToosheaSend a Private Message to ToosheaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by classic ccg:

ok so this is a long shot but what if the timing chain is bad?

the people we got the car from told us it had a bad back fire maybe it skiped time?

what do you guys think


Have you checked the timing? See if the timing is off. You can always loosen the timing adjustment bolt and move the distributor to retard the timing maybe that'll work.

You should try holding the TB wide open and try starting it. If nothing happens try some starting fluid shoot it right down the TB, you shouldnt have to use alot if you have spark something should happen. If it does try to start then its most likely not getting any fuel.

------------------
Tim and Lynn
1987 Fastback GT in restore mode..

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James Bond 007
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Report this Post03-10-2014 10:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for James Bond 007Send a Private Message to James Bond 007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Probubley rust in the fuel tank and a seized fuel pump,read my post here:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/088012.html
But befor you tear into that, try spraying a little fuel into the intake and see if it fires up.
Oh yea,check your fireing order too. They may have crossed plug wires.

[This message has been edited by James Bond 007 (edited 03-10-2014).]

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classic ccg
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Report this Post03-21-2014 12:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for classic ccgClick Here to Email classic ccgSend a Private Message to classic ccgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok well I look more to day and the engine is TDC piston is at the top and the dizz is way of I will get some pic
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Report this Post03-21-2014 12:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for classic ccgClick Here to Email classic ccgSend a Private Message to classic ccgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


http://s1248.photobucket.co....jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

[This message has been edited by classic ccg (edited 03-21-2014).]

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Report this Post03-21-2014 12:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for classic ccgClick Here to Email classic ccgSend a Private Message to classic ccgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
and this is a full turn and this is whats its at



http://s1248.photobucket.co....jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
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Report this Post03-21-2014 07:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is the picture. That rotor is waaaay off, so if you are on #1 TDC you should pull the distributor and re-set it at about 1 o clock. Then re-wire the distributor cap accordingly.



edit: what is with the duck tape?

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 03-21-2014).]

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Report this Post03-21-2014 09:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for classic ccgClick Here to Email classic ccgSend a Private Message to classic ccgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post03-21-2014 11:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for classic ccgClick Here to Email classic ccgSend a Private Message to classic ccgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

Here is the picture. That rotor is waaaay off, so if you are on #1 TDC you should pull the distributor and re-set it at about 1 o clock. Then re-wire the distributor cap accordingly.



edit: what is with the duck tape?



My buddy took off all of the egr and some vaccuum lines, so that was me trying to fix what he did.
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Report this Post03-21-2014 11:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for classic ccgClick Here to Email classic ccgSend a Private Message to classic ccgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

classic ccg

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I have some videos on youtube so you guys can see it there.
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Report this Post03-22-2014 06:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

Here is the picture. That rotor is waaaay off, so if you are on #1 TDC you should pull the distributor and re-set it at about 1 o clock. Then re-wire the distributor cap accordingly.



edit: what is with the duck tape?



It doesn't really matter where the rotor is pointing at TDC as long as you have the # 1 wire attached to the distributor at that point and the other wires are in proper sequence.
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Report this Post03-22-2014 10:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by classic ccg:

My buddy took off all of the egr and some vaccuum lines, so that was me trying to fix what he did.




The vacuum lines are there for a reason. Is the MAP still connected?
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Report this Post03-22-2014 11:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for classic ccgClick Here to Email classic ccgSend a Private Message to classic ccgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:




The vacuum lines are there for a reason. Is the MAP still connected?


yes its still hooked up luckily.... my buddy keeps telling me that he thinks that it has jumped time. It did have a bad backfire but im still not convinced that it has jumed because its not off when i put in on TDC. Its right on the number one and if i turn it one more full time its aimed at the driver seat. I may need to go back to the 70s cars lol..
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