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LS4 w/ Auto Swap Questions? by katatak
Started on: 08-21-2013 08:34 PM
Replies: 15 (1645 views)
Last post by: katatak on 08-23-2013 09:54 PM
katatak
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Report this Post08-21-2013 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katatakSend a Private Message to katatakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey there fellow Fiero Folks!

I've finally decided what engine swap to do for my Roadster project. I have been "surfing" the forum - reading and researching other swaps and I have a few questions for those that have "been there - done that".

Does anyone provide a "fab" service to modify the water pump housing? Would not need an inlet/outlet for the heater. Shoot me a PM with what you would charge to mod it.

Does anyone make a plug & play harness? Shoot me a PM with what you would charge for a harness.

I'm pretty good at building axles - would anyone care to share what "parts" I will need to build axles and / or is anyone building complete axles? If using the 4T65eHD mated to the LS4, could we use the same axle setup as we do for the 3800SC / 4T65eHD?

This swap will have the AC deleted and I plan to mount the alternator where the AC pump is. Anyone see any issues with that plan?

I would like to use the tap shift function and / or use an "electronic" type shifter - eliminate the regular shifter type of thing. Anyone have any input on that?

As seen here:

http://www.emc-digi.com/explore.cfm/smartshift/
http://news.hspn.com/articl...Tek-Speed/Page1.html

Knowing very little about the LS, would it be possible to set it up with a remote water pump - like we do for the SBC swap? Would it be sufficient to cool the LS4? I'd use a new 4 core aluminum rad as well.

Thanks in advance for your replies!

Pat
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NoMoreRicers
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Report this Post08-21-2013 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NoMoreRicersClick Here to Email NoMoreRicersSend a Private Message to NoMoreRicersEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fieroking has done a few LS swaps. Shoot him a PM. He's a great guy!
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dobey
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Report this Post08-21-2013 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All of Archie's LS swaps use a remote water pump setup. You can use the same setup on an LS4 just fine.

The same axle setup as used with the 3800/4t65e should work with the LS4 as well. As long as the trans is mounted in the same spot, it will be fine.
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katatak
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Report this Post08-21-2013 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katatakSend a Private Message to katatakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the replies guys - Glad to hear about the axles - I have most the parts in storage for a 3800SC swap. I was just reading the thread about Troboy's Enterra - looks like the LS4 that Archie is installing is using a modified stock housing. I used the Meziere pump / setup that Archie uses on my last SBC swap (big thanks to Archie for freely providing me with all the part numbers and assembly instructions). It worked pretty well on the SBC - only had a few heat issues when sitting in traffic in El Paso in the Summer. Ultimately I would like to retain the factory H2O pump but I have zero talent when it comes to fabbing/welding aluminum. If I can't find a guy that wants to mod one for me, I'll go with the remote setup.
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Report this Post08-21-2013 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The coolant flow in the LS motors is a little different than the classic SBC was, so the exact same pump setup won't work. There are plenty of electric pump options available for the LS now though, including remote pumps. I don't know if Archie will sell the water pump separately from the whole LS kit, but I'm sure you can call him and ask.

As for modifying the factory water pump, there are plenty of options as well. If you move the decklid hinges (or convert to a different setup that avoids interference), I think you can get buy with just hacking part of the pump off that interferes with the firewall, and the fill neck can be left alone. Check Rickady88GT's LS4 swap thread in the Construction Zone to see what he did there. Most all the other swaps have been a bit more drastic with water pump modifications, indeed. I think most all of them have each been done a little bit differently from the rest, too.
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Report this Post08-21-2013 10:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you do the hinge box mod in this thread, then you should be able to use the stock pump assembly with the exception of pulling the idler in along the firewall.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/085829.html

It also really cleans up the firewall as well.


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katatak
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Report this Post08-21-2013 10:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katatakSend a Private Message to katatakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

If you do the hinge box mod in this thread, then you should be able to use the stock pump assembly with the exception of pulling the idler in along the firewall.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/085829.html

It also really cleans up the firewall as well.



Thanks for that link Guru - that's very slick and gives me a direction to go in. My biggest concern with this swap was the water pump housing and firewall clearance. There's a ton of info here but stringing it all together is tough. Your LS4 swap is what helped me decide to do the LS swap.
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katatak
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Report this Post08-21-2013 10:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katatakSend a Private Message to katatakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

katatak

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quote
Originally posted by dobey:

The coolant flow in the LS motors is a little different than the classic SBC was, so the exact same pump setup won't work. There are plenty of electric pump options available for the LS now though, including remote pumps. I don't know if Archie will sell the water pump separately from the whole LS kit, but I'm sure you can call him and ask.

As for modifying the factory water pump, there are plenty of options as well. If you move the decklid hinges (or convert to a different setup that avoids interference), I think you can get buy with just hacking part of the pump off that interferes with the firewall, and the fill neck can be left alone. Check Rickady88GT's LS4 swap thread in the Construction Zone to see what he did there. Most all the other swaps have been a bit more drastic with water pump modifications, indeed. I think most all of them have each been done a little bit differently from the rest, too.


Thanks for the info, I was looking at the thread for the LS2 / 6T75 and was looking at his pump setup - pretty interesting stuff there. I'd like to use his electronic shifter! A bit pricey but looks to be a quality product - add the paddle shift system and I'd have a "bolt on" setup that I'm looking for.
http://www.powertraincontro...ons.com/product/gsm/

[This message has been edited by katatak (edited 08-21-2013).]

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Fieroking
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Report this Post08-22-2013 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierokingClick Here to visit Fieroking's HomePageClick Here to Email FierokingSend a Private Message to FierokingEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't understand why everyone wants to hack up the the front of the LS4 and try and hang an electric pump on a system that fits into the Fiero with a few minor mods to the engine and the Fiero chassis.



This is the front of the current LS4 build I am working on



This the the same engine with Doug Thorley header on it.

This is my 4th LS4 build

I do make the following for the LS4 install into the Fiero

Engine mount Kit (engine and trans)
Low mount Alternator bracket
Wiring Harness
Push button Shifter (replaces the trans selector in the cockpit)
Axels for the LS4 to Fiero.

Before you make up the axels from the 3800 parts you have make sure that the Tri pots fit into the LS4 4T 65 E HD. The tri pots need to be from the supercharged version.

Joe Sokol

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88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)
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katatak
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Report this Post08-22-2013 09:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katatakSend a Private Message to katatakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fieroking:

I don't understand why everyone wants to hack up the the front of the LS4 and try and hang an electric pump on a system that fits into the Fiero with a few minor mods to the engine and the Fiero chassis.



This is the front of the current LS4 build I am working on



This the the same engine with Doug Thorley header on it.

This is my 4th LS4 build

I do make the following for the LS4 install into the Fiero

Engine mount Kit (engine and trans)
Low mount Alternator bracket
Wiring Harness
Push button Shifter (replaces the trans selector in the cockpit)
Axels for the LS4 to Fiero.

Before you make up the axels from the 3800 parts you have make sure that the Tri pots fit into the LS4 4T 65 E HD. The tri pots need to be from the supercharged version.

Joe Sokol


Thanks for the info Joe! I agree - my preference is to retain the stock belt driven pump. Couple questions:

Can the Power steering be deleted - let the belt run from idler to idler across the top?

This build will have no AC - do you think I can mount the Alternator where the AC pump is - will there be enough "wrap" of the belt on the water pump?

I have a couple sets of 98 GTP axles and an assortment of Stock Fiero Manual and Auto Axles left over from a few 3800 SC swap I have done in the past. Is the assembly of the axles pretty much the same as the axles we build for the 3800 SC swap? I'm not sure if there are any "length" differences? I'm assuming - because it is a 4t65eHD, the position of the trans will be roughly in the same place as the 3800SC swap.

Can you PM me a price for the harness, mounts and the push button shifter? I suppose you will need year and vin of the donor! I do not have it yet but a ball park cost for the harness will work for now. Not planning any mods to the motor right off - want to get it up and running / driving first then do some mods later. Thanks again for your response.

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Report this Post08-23-2013 12:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for diabloroadsterSend a Private Message to diabloroadsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fieroking does some nice work, I have a set of his axles on my LS4. You could mount your alt down where the a/c is but you still have to worry about a belt tensioner. Im not sure if the factory LS4 belt tensior will fit in a Fiero, I able to use it on mine but its on Diablo kit.

Going with a complete swap package from Fieroking is going to be your best bet, but if your a DIY kind of guy you can save alot of money by doing alot of the stuff yourself. Making the mounts and exhaust are pretty easy if you have a welder. Im running a Magnashift trans controller with a home made wireless paddle shifter setup, and a Microsquirt running the LS4 with a truck intake/tb/injectors. Made my own harness from the factory harness, this was my first time doing a complete harness and my own EFI tuning. It was also pretty easy to do and Im not the sharpest tool in the shed by no means...

In total I have right at $2000 including the motor/trans into my LS4 swap. I do have a new cam, lifters,injectors, turbo, ect to go on the car but I just repainted the car and still trying to get it put back together. But thats has added a another $1800 to my cost....
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Report this Post08-23-2013 08:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How exactly is using an electric pump (remote or not), "hacking up the front of an LS4?"

In fact, as far as I know, absolutely none of the LS4 swaps that are currently in a Fiero, are using an electric pump. However, all the LS4 installs I know of, but one, require "hacking up the front of an LS4" to make the water manifold a bit, even if only slightly. The only one I know of with a 100% unmodified water manifold, is in a stretched Fiero where the firewall and decklid hinges can't interfere. Rickady88GT's swap moved the hinges, and cut part of the manifold down, moving an idler pulley in enough to clear the firewall.

And, Fieroking, in those pictures you just posted, the water manifold looks like it has been modified, as I don't see the fill neck sticking up. It'd be better to show pictures from the forward angle of the side the water manifold hangs off of. If there are any swaps with the LS4 mounted in a stock Fiero chassis (don't cut through firewall or move decklid hinges to clear the manifold), with an unmodified LS4 water manifold being used, I'd love to see them.
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Report this Post08-23-2013 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierokingClick Here to visit Fieroking's HomePageClick Here to Email FierokingSend a Private Message to FierokingEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not to get into a PISSING contest. Yes there are 2 modifications done the to water log that I do to fit the LS4 into the Fiero only one needs to be done and that is moving the forward idler to the rear about an inch and cutting off the old mount to clear the Fiero firewall. The other mod that I do is a convenience mod which is removing the filler cap and making a mount plate to attach to the rear of either head to make it easier to put coolant into the system. The coolant fill cap can be left were it originally was, it is just very hard to get the cap off unless you do a major mod to the deck hinge. The mods needing to be done to run a electric water pump would be more extensive and you still have to deal with both of the problems I described.

Joe Sokol

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88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)
www.fieroking.com

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Report this Post08-23-2013 04:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierokingClick Here to visit Fieroking's HomePageClick Here to Email FierokingSend a Private Message to FierokingEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Katatak

To answer your questions

Yes the power steering can be deleted just use a pulley from a AC delete for the Chevy S10

One of the LS4's that I worked on had the AC and the Power steering deleted. He mounted the Alternator were the AC pump was. I'll see if I can get some pictures of how he did it.

I'll drop you a PM with prices for my parts.

Joe Sokol

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85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)
www.fieroking.com

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katatak
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Report this Post08-23-2013 09:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katatakSend a Private Message to katatakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by diabloroadster:

Fieroking does some nice work, I have a set of his axles on my LS4. You could mount your alt down where the a/c is but you still have to worry about a belt tensioner. Im not sure if the factory LS4 belt tensior will fit in a Fiero, I able to use it on mine but its on Diablo kit.

Going with a complete swap package from Fieroking is going to be your best bet, but if your a DIY kind of guy you can save alot of money by doing alot of the stuff yourself. Making the mounts and exhaust are pretty easy if you have a welder. Im running a Magnashift trans controller with a home made wireless paddle shifter setup, and a Microsquirt running the LS4 with a truck intake/tb/injectors. Made my own harness from the factory harness, this was my first time doing a complete harness and my own EFI tuning. It was also pretty easy to do and Im not the sharpest tool in the shed by no means...

In total I have right at $2000 including the motor/trans into my LS4 swap. I do have a new cam, lifters,injectors, turbo, ect to go on the car but I just repainted the car and still trying to get it put back together. But thats has added a another $1800 to my cost....


Thanks for the response. I'm pretty handy with the fab work - this will be the 8th or 9th Fiero swap / build that I have done and Iv'e done most the popular swaps - 4.9 caddy, 3800SC, 3.4, and an SBC. My biggest challenge is the electrical. I attempted a 3800SC harness and after a few months gave in and bought one already made. I swore then that I would leave that part of the fab/swap up to those that have real talent. Joe will definitely get my business.
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katatak
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Report this Post08-23-2013 09:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katatakSend a Private Message to katatakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fieroking:

Katatak

To answer your questions

Yes the power steering can be deleted just use a pulley from a AC delete for the Chevy S10

One of the LS4's that I worked on had the AC and the Power steering deleted. He mounted the Alternator were the AC pump was. I'll see if I can get some pictures of how he did it.

I'll drop you a PM with prices for my parts.

Joe Sokol




Thanks again Joe! Got your PM - all looks good! Pics for that Alt mount would be perfect. Just looking at your pics, I was thinking that maybe the smaller pulley of the alternator would not allow much of a wrap on the water pump but I suppose the alternator could be mounted "outboard" slightly to maintain a good wrap on the H2O pump.

Also, I agree with he electric setup being spendy. I had a lot of dollars tied up in the Meziere setup on my 86 V8 Coupe and although it works, I was never "comfortable" that I was moving enough coolant. Originally I had the standard Archie SBC pump setup with the pulley/belt sticking out into the wheel well. Never had an overheat issue with that setup but I did not like it and switched to the electric pump. Car ran a little hotter and in traffic, would creep the temp needle up some. Sometimes, on the interstate at speeds in excess of - say 85 MPH - the temp would creep up too - always made me wonder about "flow". 50 GPM probably is not moving the coolant around enough when pushing the upper limits of the motor? Anyway, enough rambling - if I can keep it "stock, I'll be happy.
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