Although I am still narrowing my engine swap choice down, I am leaning towards the 3800 SC. My car currently has the Iron duke with the 5-speed Isuzu tranny, and has about 90,000 miles.
Should I switch the tranny if I upgrade to the 3800 SC? I've heard the Isuzu isn't strong enough to handle the power.
I'd like to stick with the stick shift, but could be swayed for the Auto with a good argument.
But as for stick shifts, which is best?
The Muncie Gertag? (Which seems hard to find) The F23? (I've heard this has strength issues as well.) The F40? (Seems the costliest, and have heard that 3rd gear is too short and 4th gear too long.)
Don't overlook the Muncie 4 speed M17. It seems to be as strong as any manual and you will have less need for a 5th gear with more power. The big plus is they are still relatively cheap.
[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 07-09-2013).]
Don't overlook the Muncie 4 speed M17. It seems to be as strong as any manual and you will have less need for a 5th gear with more power. The big plus is they are still relatively cheap.
The 5th gear on the Getrag/Isuzu isn't there because the cars have less power. It's there to get better MPG.
The Muncie Gertag? (Which seems hard to find) The F23? (I've heard this has strength issues as well.) The F40? (Seems the costliest, and have heard that 3rd gear is too short and 4th gear too long.)
What are your opinions?
This question has been asked many times over the years and the general opinion has been that the muncie 4 speed is stronger than the 5 speed getrag; both of these are better than the isuzu, which is usually thought of as weakest of the bunch.
it is also generally agreed that none of these trans will hold up well if you frequently abuse them with a high horsepower/torque engine conversion. I have the 5 speed getrag with an L98 and have no trouble, but i drive it normally without abuse. Abusing with a 3800SC will ruin your clutch; doing it with a v8 will break the axles .
i've seen a few guys post that the F40 is a strong enough trans, but 6 speeds aren't THAT big of an advantage (due to the gearing you mentioned) and is outweighed by the higher cost.
My opinion is to go with the getrag 5 speed, don't power shift and don't dump the clutch. Gas mileage is good. With my car, 1st is about 3 seconds, 2nd is about another 5 seconds, then 3rd gear will carry you anywhere you wanna go.
What he said. All the mantrans that will fit will have to low a 1st gear. so use a aluminum flywheel. All the mantrans that were used in fiero's are OLD! and used up. Finding a good, low miles trany is a quest.
you want to drive it every day, beat on it, race it, get good mpg use the auto trans that comes with the engine. That and you get to use 2 hands to steer it when you are out showing your ass. the auto's are faster. putting a 3800SC in a fiero is going from a under powered car to a over powered car.
I love a good stick shift. But their is only so much you can ask of a old, week, trany.
I pulled the 128k getrag from my 88 that had a shot 3rd gear syncro and a bad seal at the input shaft bearing, both common problems. Threw a muncie in from an '86 parts car that had a hard 200,000 mile life, and 20k later, it still works perfectly. Granted, I don't abuse it, and its only behind a 200ish HP modified 3.4. 1st is nice and long enough to be usable. Not great for traffic. 4th turns 2,800 at 70, which isn't terrible. My sisters VR6 Jetta with a 6 speed manual turns the same rpm's in 6th. I don't find myself wanting more gears. It would be nice to have an overdrive 5th to nurse out a few more mpg's, but I can still get up to 29 on a long trip. It's also nice having it right in the power band when you've cruising at 70.
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed: The F23? (I've heard this has strength issues as well.)
I have not heard of any strength issues with the F23. In fact, it seems that the general consensus at this point is that this trans can withstand a very high level of torque. It does require a little fabrication and possibly some custom parts to install it, but IMO this is going to be the most durable of the transmissions that you listed.
It depends on what you plan to do with your swap. If you want to keep it cheep, stick with the Isuzu until you break it. Despite what some have said, if you don't dump the clutch or shift into peak torque, you'll pretty much be fine with it for a while. And its 5th gear will give you the best MPG out of what transmissions come in the Fiero. You might want to throw a new clutch in the car though, as the original is probably still in it, and it's worn down.
If you want to upgrade a bit, and still keep costs down, the Getrag is a bit stronger, and a reasonably easy swap to do coming off an Isuzu. You still have OD 4th and 5th with it, so cruising MPG will still be good, though slightly less than the Isuzu.
If you plan to add a big turbo or anything to significantly increase the power output of the swap later on, then either go with the F23 or F40, or convert to automatic, and buy a 3800 with the 4t65 mated to it already, and throw that in there.
The auto will perform better for drag racing if you want to race it on the weekends at the strip or anything like that.
One that hasn't been mentioned is the F35 which is a five speed manual gearbox that is rated for input torque of 260 ft/lb. This trans was used in the Cobalt and HHR SS models with the LNF engine and they all came from the factory with a limited slip differential.
Originally posted by lateFormula: One that hasn't been mentioned is the F35 which is a five speed manual gearbox that is rated for input torque of 260 ft/lb. This trans was used in the Cobalt and HHR SS models with the LNF engine and they all came from the factory with a limited slip differential.
It's also a trans for the Ecotec engines, which have a different bell pattern, so won't bolt directly to any of the engines which OP is considering. It's a good trans, but most people tend to want to avoid an adapter plate if possible, as the plate takes away from available space, and limits positioning options of the engine/trans combination a bit more.
I'd tend to vote for the F40 - but the MU9, introduced for 2007. This is providing that you like to drive a stick. Personally I do, and enjoy the extra shifts if I want to have fun - of course, with a 3800SC you could skip shift if so inclined.
My biggest ***** with the getrag is the 4-5 jump always seems too tall - I can live with the short 1st for the street, not so good for go-fast.
In the MU9, sixth is only a little taller than the 282, 4th, 5th and 6th are fairly close ratio. Very easy to slip down one gear if you want, the 6-5 shift seems real smooth to me, whereas on the getrag, 5-4 always seems "notchy", never seems to slide smoothly through the gate. And as I mentioned, you can always skip shift and drive it as a four speed.
Having said that, if you don't really WANT a stick, auto is probably the choice that makes most sense.
when all these were new, yes, it was the "weakest" however, 25 years have gone by is the prettiest girl in your high school class still the prettiest 25 years later? if and when your Izusu breaks, they are a dime a dozen to replace they are regularly listed on Craigslist for $100, and the owners are damn happy if anybody buys it many are happy if they get half that once it sits in their garage long enough
if you put in a Getrag it will be even harder to find one when it does break than it will be now, and even more expensive and you will feel damn lucky to find one don't even think you can repair it yes, you can repair it if you are lucky enough to find parts, which are even rarer than the transmission but don't count on it you can easily buy 4 Izusu's for the price of one Getrag, in fact you can probably buy a half dozen or looked at another way, an entire working Izusu is less money than one replacement part for the Getrag (if you are lucky enough to find it)
One that hasn't been mentioned is the F35 which is a five speed manual gearbox that is rated for input torque of 260 ft/lb. This trans was used in the Cobalt and HHR SS models with the LNF engine and they all came from the factory with a limited slip differential.
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 07-12-2013).]
when all these were new, yes, it was the "weakest" however, 25 years have gone by is the prettiest girl in your high school class still the prettiest 25 years later? if and when your Izusu breaks, they are a dime a dozen to replace they are regularly listed on Craigslist for $100, and the owners are damn happy if anybody buys it many are happy if they get half that once it sits in their garage long enough
if you put in a Getrag it will be even harder to find one when it does break than it will be now, and even more expensive and you will feel damn lucky to find one don't even think you can repair it yes, you can repair it if you are lucky enough to find parts, which are even rarer than the transmission but don't count on it you can easily buy 4 Izusu's for the price of one Getrag, in fact you can probably buy a half dozen or looked at another way, an entire working Izusu is less money than one replacement part for the Getrag (if you are lucky enough to find it)
I would rather drive my car than replace transmissions anymore. It sucks when one breaks and destroys your $300+ clutch.
One that nobody has mentioned is the Beretta Getrag, for the 3.1. It comes with a bit sturdier differential that the Fiero version. IMHO, the best thing about this tranny is the internal hydraulic release bearing. It does away with the Fiero's (sometimes) unreliable slave cylinder and all the mechanical bits that are hanging off the side of the tranny. Leaves quite a bit more room for exhaust systems. It will require Rodney's FWD shift cable adapters, but it's well worth it. The gearing is the same as the Fiero Getrag.
I have one on my 4.9 and really like it. It seems to shift a bit smoother than the Fiero Getrag. (I've heard that was by design, but I'm not sure.)
quote
Originally posted by Silicoan86:
If you want to become an expert at replacing transmissions, go with Isuzus and buy them in bulk to save the downtime in the future. ...
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-13-2013).]
Originally posted by Raydar: One that nobody has mentioned is the Beretta Getrag, for the 3.1.
Ah, I was totally going to mention the 90s HTOB Getrag over the stock Fiero Getrag in my chespest-to-best options post, but completely forgot to do so.
Yeah, I don't know if I trust the Isuzu enough to leave it in the car. Especially if I swap in the 3800sc. Since I haven't actually driven the car yet, I can't vouch for its condition. When I bought it, I was told it runs but but needed a new fuel pump. It currently has 90K+. And I really don't want to do this more that once.
I love rowing through the gears on a stick shift, but am starting to consider dropping in one of the Automatics.
Yeah, I don't know if I trust the Isuzu enough to leave it in the car. Especially if I swap in the 3800sc. Since I haven't actually driven the car yet, I can't vouch for its condition. When I bought it, I was told it runs but but needed a new fuel pump. It currently has 90K+. And I really don't want to do this more that once.
I love rowing through the gears on a stick shift, but am starting to consider dropping in one of the Automatics.
Thoughts???
I went with the Muncie 4sp, it was in the car and feels solid with 130k on it though. I've heard they are pretty sturdy, but I've been looking at what I would replace it with, an auto is really tempting, they take the abuse and I saw a company that sells a limited slip for one of them. Saw that while pricing one for a f23. I should be driving it for the first time this week, I'll let you know I'd it blows up the first week with the cammed 3800. I've driven an auto 3800 fiero, it just soaks up the abuse and keeps going, who buys a sports car and swaps in a big motor to be "easy" on it?
I would rather drive my car than replace transmissions anymore. It sucks when one breaks and destroys your $300+ clutch.
I was referring to the fact that the OP seemed to want to go with a Fiero Getrag, in which case, you can't drive a car with a busted transmission, no parts available, and no replacement transmission available. In that case the Izusu is a viable alternative since they are in abundance and cheap and most important of all:
Originally posted by ZaraSpOOk: I was referring to the fact that the OP seemed to want to go with a Fiero Getrag, in which case, you can't drive a car with a busted transmission, no parts available, and no replacement transmission available. In that case the Izusu is a viable alternative since they are in abundance and cheap and most important of all:
HE ALREADY HAS ONE!
Getrags aren't exactly rare. I don't know where you get the idea that they are. Various versions of the 282 were available in many FWD GM cars from the 80s and through the 90s.
Going back to your other post, doing it for $1500, the 3800SC, if you buy a whole car for the drive line, will have the trans FOR the SC engine. If you go with the stick shift ( any of them ) you will need a mantrans fly wheel. You need to price that part before you make up your mind. You are going to have to get after market, very much stronger trans, engine mounts and reinforce the cradle for the front trans mount to hang on to that 3800SC engine. The 3800SC is that much more engine. You will have to have the 3800SC ecu reprogramed to get rid of the pass key stuff. When that is done they can set it up for the tire size and all the other things it needs to have done so it will be happy in your fiero.
You will not need any thing that is on your cradle now.. So just leave the car together. get a spare cradle, make a cradle stand to hold it up off the floor. ( your back will like that) Do the swap on the 2nd cradle. When ever you take a wire off of some thing, tag it ! ! this is important !!.
Originally posted by FFIEROFRED: You need to price that part before you make up your mind.
Camaro flywheel, plus cost to turn down and fit the 142 ring gear can all be done for $100-150, for a new flywheel. Cheaper for used obviously, and cheaper if you can turn it down yourself. The flywheel is hardly a concerning cost. The clutch disc and pressure plate will be 2-3x the cost of fixing a Camaro flywheel to fit.
If you want to become an expert at replacing transmissions, go with Isuzus and buy them in bulk to save the downtime in the future.
If you want to do this once, go with the F23.
I have an Isuzu with approx 60k worth of track, racing, autox etc on it. N20, drag radials, the works. Its been freshened up twice (once during the LSD install and on 2002 for a broken shift fork), it has a prototype LSD in it from Quaife. Its bolted to a 3.4TDC in Garth's 87GT. This is the only trans that has been in this car since it was built back in '92-'93. So, pardon me if I don't drink the "Isuzu is crap" Kool-Aid.
Also, I have an F23 in my '88.
Edit to add... would I use an Isuzu for any high HP builds? No. Any 2.8, 3.1, 3.4 NA, sure. If I was going to get really serious, I would use a built 4T65HD. Thats the plan if I break my F23. And that would really suck because I prefer to shift my own gears.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 07-14-2013).]
I have an Isuzu with approx 60k worth of track, racing, autox etc on it. N20, drag radials, the works. Its been freshened up twice (once during the LSD install and on 2002 for a broken shift fork), it has a prototype LSD in it from Quaife. Its bolted to a 3.4TDC in Garth's 87GT. This is the only trans that has been in this car since it was built back in '92-'93. So, pardon me if I don't drink the "Isuzu is crap" Kool-Aid.
Also, I have an F23 in my '88.
Edit to add... would I use an Isuzu for any high HP builds? No. Any 2.8, 3.1, 3.4 NA, sure. If I was going to get really serious, I would use a built 4T65HD. Thats the plan if I break my F23. And that would really suck because I prefer to shift my own gears.
I also have an Isuzu bolted to a 3.4 TDC in my car that's seen a significant amount of abuse at drag strips over the last ten years, but the power band of the TDC tends to be easier on transmissions than most other swaps. It just doesn't have the low rpm second-gear-stripping torque that the larger displacement engines have.
[This message has been edited by Silicoan86 (edited 07-15-2013).]
My stock Getrag 5 speed is going on 24 years in my car and with around 300 bhp through a Centerforce clutch it is still in great shape. Might be different if I drag raced or was a ham fisted shifter, but so far so good - they seem to be very durable.
Originally posted by dobey: Getrags aren't exactly rare. I don't know where you get the idea that they are. Various versions of the 282 were available in many FWD GM cars from the 80s and through the 90s.
I didn't say Getrags are rare, I said a Fiero Getrag for sale is expensive and hard to find compared to the Izusu, as are replacement parts
my seat of the pants guesstimate is that for every Getrag that comes up for sale there are about a dozen Izusu's, and the price is four to 10 times more.
the OP has an Izusu, if the thing works, doesn't leak, that's a lot more than he can say for whatever Getrag he finds. But it's his money & time.
Originally posted by ZaraSpOOk: I didn't say Getrags are rare, I said a Fiero Getrag for sale is expensive and hard to find compared to the Izusu, as are replacement parts
my seat of the pants guesstimate is that for every Getrag that comes up for sale there are about a dozen Izusu's, and the price is four to 10 times more.
the OP has an Izusu, if the thing works, doesn't leak, that's a lot more than he can say for whatever Getrag he finds. But it's his money & time.
Why would you use a Fiero Getrag? Getrags are cheap. They're less than $300 anywhere you find them, except maybe newly rebuilt ones. The HTOB Getrag is a much better option than the original Fiero Getrag, and a direct bolt-in. The only extra thing you need are a few small pieces to adapt the Fiero shifter cables, and the hydraulic line, to the newer trans. Only slightly more work than that, to convert from the Isuzu to the Getrag. It is the absolute cheapest way to get any trans stronger than an Isuzu, into a Fiero.
If you want something stronger than that, then F23 or F40 all the way, or just convert to automatic.
If the Isuzu is fine, I'd run with it until it breaks, but it may not last very long, if he plans to launch hard or shift hard.
EDIT: Oh, and there is a Getrag in my Fiero that works fine, which I'll be selling as soon as I get it out.
[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 07-16-2013).]
the best most reliable fiero transmission is the stock 3 speed automatic,, the 4speed auto is a POS the 4 speed auto is OK if you have it performance rebuilt,, the 4 speed G.M auto transmission kept 1000s of auto transmission Rebuilders in business untill the late 90s,,early 2000 the 4 speed manual transmission is O.K. but it is low geared & gas milage will suck (i have one)
if you go with any fiero manual get the double seal slave plunger from Rodney the V6 5 speed available from late 86 till 88 is the way to go ,, the 4 speed manual is stronger, but the low gearing ruins MPG,,but if you want to blow off Camaros around town & do not care about Gas MPG,,go with the 4 speed,, the 4 speed comes out of the hole strong.. if you go with any of the the manuals install NEW Rodney Dickman shift cables ,new seals & synthetic gear oil for long life ,,lube the shifters mechanism under the console & use a light grease on the shift lever,where it mounts on the stud,,,like lubriplate.wheel bearing grease is O.K. do not oil or lube rodneys cables
The F40 is expensive and geared wrong. The F23 is a POS. The Getrag 4 speed is tough, but crap on gas. The Isuzu 5 speed is good on gas, but a weak transmission.
The 4 speed auto is suspect. The 4-speed HD auto sounds decent.
Is that about right? Is there a good transmission?
If I get the transmission that comes with the 3800SC from the donor car, it sounds like that is the most reliable scenerio. BUT, is that geared for more Granny-mobile driving? Like, if I soup the motor up a little, will it be wasted by the lazy tranny?
NOPE. The 3800SC engine will over power the rear tires with ANY gearing. The fiero use's a shorter tire than the bigger cars that engine come in. The fiero is lighter than any car that engine came in. The drive line should come with the 3.29 rear gear. But it may have the 3.08 rear. My son's 3800SC 85 GT ( with pully and ecm up grades by ZZP ) has the 3.29 / stock converter / SS headers. it ran, on a hot after noon ( in mississippi ) 13.45 @ 98 mph. on that run it didn't up shift out of 2nd. How fast do you need to go?
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed: So it sounds like:
The F40 is expensive and geared wrong. The F23 is a POS. The Getrag 4 speed is tough, but crap on gas. The Isuzu 5 speed is good on gas, but a weak transmission.
The 4 speed auto is suspect. The 4-speed HD auto sounds decent.
Is that about right? Is there a good transmission?
If I get the transmission that comes with the 3800SC from the donor car, it sounds like that is the most reliable scenerio. BUT, is that geared for more Granny-mobile driving? Like, if I soup the motor up a little, will it be wasted by the lazy tranny?
You don't want to listen to what ulahnstan just said. It's nonsense.
The F40 is expensive. I wouldn't say it's geared wrong. The gearing in it isn't significantly different from any of the 5 speed options. All of the FWD manual transmissions are mostly all geared for motors that make less torque than engines which people typically choose to swap into a Fiero. So, if you put in an engine which makes more torque, and doesn't rev to 8000+ RPM, it will certainly seem like the gearing sucks. But that's going to be true regardless of the manual trans you choose. And there are 3 different 4 speed manual transmissions you could choose from, to throw in the Fiero. They shouldn't all be considered the same. And 2 of those are geared for the 96 HP 2.5L, not a 300 HP 3.8. The other is geared for the 2.8, to have an ok balance of performance and economy.
The F23 is far from a POS. But it's not the cheapest option, either. It's not a direct bolt-in, so will require a bit more work. There is no Getrag 4 speed. As I said, there are 3 different 4 speeds, and are Muncie transmissions. The Getrag 5 speed is OK, and a direct bolt-in.
The 3-speed auto is crap. If you want to burn it up fast, throw a 3800 on one. If you're even thinking of going for an automatic with the 3800, you should use the 4t65-hd auto that it comes mounted to. There are also a lot of 4 speed automatic transmissions available, so one should be specific about which one is being discussed, when talking about them. The 4t60 (440-t4) might be what was referred to as "crap" in that post. It was the first gen of 4 speed auto FWD trans, and used the same case as the TH-125c 3 speed, so I could see it being a bit more prone to failure than later 4 speeds might be. But then again, any transmission is going to eventually have problems, if you are constantly exceeding it's designed limits.
The best options for using a 3800 are, if you want a manual, the F40 or F23, and if you want an auto, the 4t65 that's mated to it factory. If you want to abuse it, or add a turbo or anything, then the auto should definitely be built up to handle it. For the manuals, you can cryo them and such, but you probably won't need to. Instead, you'll just need a good clutch that can handle things.
I'm going with the F23. It seems a good balance of strength and gearing. I'm not going to be really hard on it, but will open it up on occasion, and want half decent gearing so I can still get a few MPG instead of GPM.
I wasn't pronouncing judgement on any of the transmissions with my last post. I was trying to summerize what others had posted on this thread to see if I could get a concensus. I obviously don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to calling something a POS, cause I have no experience with any of them. My car currently has the 2.5L 5-Isuzu with 90,000 miles. Of which, I have contributed zero. I have not driven the car yet. My only experience driving a Fiero was the 86 2.5L Auto I had in the Navy, and that was almost 20 years ago. I will be swapping in the 3800sc, which will remain mostly stock. I only plan to clean it up, change the gaskets, reduce the SC pulley size, custom exhaust.
I am just looking for the straight dope on transmission, so I can make an educated purchase for the swap.
I would love a manual, but worry about stregth and gearing issues I have heard about from other forum members.
The Auto would be good, but less fun.
I don't plan to use it for racing or autocross. Mostly just a fun cruiser. It would be nice to have the option of getting on it, if the need arrises.
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