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Getrag 5-speed will not shift into any gear while running by sspeedstreet
Started on: 07-04-2013 08:19 PM
Replies: 21 (2911 views)
Last post by: Patrick on 04-17-2015 02:27 PM
sspeedstreet
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Report this Post07-04-2013 08:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sspeedstreetClick Here to Email sspeedstreetSend a Private Message to sspeedstreetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, I'm back. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/129134.html Just when I had convinced myself that all the clutch/tranny racket was normal. I pulled the car out of the garage and parked at the curb in front of the house. All normal. Just as I was shutting the engine off, clutch down, second gear, it started creeping forward. I pulled it into neutral with the engine off, restarted the motor and with the clutch all the way down it will not go into any gear.

I watched the clutch arm while the clutch pedal was being depressed and it seemed like it was moving an adequate distance. Or maybe not? An inch I'd guess.

Any suggestions? The clutch master is new, BTW. An original style steel one and it was was working fine.
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Bloozberry
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Report this Post07-04-2013 09:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The problem (as I'm sure you know) is that the clutch isn't being released from the flywheel. Your two symptoms are both classic examples of what happens when the clutch plate doesn't fully release:

a. can't get the transmission in any gear while the engine is running but the car is stopped; and
b. if started in gear, the car creeps forward even with the clutch pedal depressed.

The reason this happens is because you're getting insufficient throw out bearing travel to release the fingers on the pressure plate. There are several potential reasons why you're not getting enough travel... the most likely being:

1. air in the clutch line or slave cylinder (improperly bled);
2. leaky seals in master or slave cylinders;
3. incorrect slave cylinder pushrod;
4. cracked or loose slave cylinder mounting bracket
5. bent clutch pedal;
6. carpet in the way of clutch pedal;
7. worn clutch pedal linkage (banjo bolt hole)
8. insufficient hydraulic fluid in reservoir; or
9. worn out clutch plate.
Edit to add: 10. on a Getrag, the sleeve that the throw out bearing rides on may be broken (typical failure on a Getrag)

[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 07-04-2013).]

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Rodney
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Report this Post07-05-2013 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Use a scale and check the movement of the arm on the trans. If it is around 7/8" that part is OK. If it is moving that much then it is probably in the pressure plate/clutch.

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sspeedstreet
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Report this Post07-05-2013 02:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sspeedstreetClick Here to Email sspeedstreetSend a Private Message to sspeedstreetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:
Use a scale and check the movement of the arm on the trans. If it is around 7/8" that part is OK. If it is moving that much then it is probably in the pressure plate/clutch.


Thank you, Rodney. I didn't know how much travel was required. I will do that measurement tonight.

A very comprehensive list Bloozberry! I will check them all, but I'm fearing it's the clutch

I was looking at clutch information on the web and came across this. How to do a Ferrari F50 clutch:



At first I thought WTF? But it may be quicker than doing a Fiero.

[This message has been edited by sspeedstreet (edited 07-06-2013).]

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ZaraSpOOk
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Report this Post07-05-2013 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ZaraSpOOkClick Here to Email ZaraSpOOkSend a Private Message to ZaraSpOOkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
you said you are getting about an inch of travel of the slave rod
is the clutch arm actually rotating down below at the transmission?

if it is, that is a good sign your clutch fork and throw out bearing are doing what they are supposed to
if not, you could have a bad sleeve (see #10 above) or the clutch fork is bad, or the throw out bearing itself is bad
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trotterlg
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Report this Post07-05-2013 02:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not every pressure plate requires the same amount of travel to release the clutch. The amount of travel also changes as the clutch plate gets thinner because the geometry of the release spring disc/pressure plate changes. Someone really needs to come up with a clutch master with a slightly larger bore so that the slave can have a little extra travel, by the number of these types of problems being posted it seems that the disign for the slave travel is marginal at best. Larry
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Rodney
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Report this Post07-05-2013 03:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If 5000 Fiero owners have no problems but 10 have problems and post them here on the forum everyone thinks 5000 Fiero owners have the same problem because the 5000 that have no problems never post that they have no problems.

How's that for a run on sentence.

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trotterlg
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Report this Post07-05-2013 03:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thing is, I don't think I have ever seen an Isuzu owner post anything on an Isuzu board about the problems with clutch travel/release issues. This seems to be a re-occuring theme here. When things like this happen over and over again there is generally a very basic reason for the issue. Larry
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marot
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Report this Post07-05-2013 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for marotClick Here to Email marotSend a Private Message to marotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i had the same problem last month i replaced everything clutch pedal ,master,slave cilinder, new clutch set , i had still had the problem
, in the end i solve the problem after 100 times blending, well it was leaking at the connection of the slave cilinder where the stainles steel pipe comes from the mastercilinder the head of that piping was not good anymore so it was leaking from there and after few days the fluid was empty and air was come in the line too, we did not replace that piping line, but fixed with a special tool ,we make a new head on the piping and now its no more leaking and my clutch works super,
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92wastheyear
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Report this Post07-05-2013 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 92wastheyearClick Here to Email 92wastheyearSend a Private Message to 92wastheyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
RD: 5000 [Fiero Owners] that have no problems never post that they have no problems.


I am checking in to report that I have no problems with my clutch.....of course I have an automatic, but still
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sardonyx247
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Report this Post07-05-2013 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
90% of the time this happens it has to do with the hydraulics, not releasing anyway.
Like the #2 post.

For it to be the pressure plate, it has to be broken to not release, not just worn out.
I have seen broken shift forks and broken/cracked shift arms, also broken or cracked slave brackets.
But still 90% of the time it has air in the system do to either a bad bleed or a leaking master or slave
.

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Report this Post07-06-2013 05:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hypo327Click Here to Email hypo327Send a Private Message to hypo327Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My '86, late-run, GT (technically, an '87 with all the '87 upgrades) has had stiff shifting problems ever since I bought new adjustable shifting/selector cables from the Fiero Store. It wasn't to bad at first, so I just lived with it, but after I installed a new stage III clutch & throw out bearing, it got worse. Then I did a 3.4 swap, and it again got worse again. Then my Getrag froze up, so I had to replace my '87 getrag with an '88 getrag, and again the shifting got stiffer. I then bought Rodney's aluminum adjustable master and slave, and it didn't help the shifting one bit. I checked out all the things listed by boozberry and Rodney above, but it was still stiff, and so stiff I could hardly shift it into 5th, and hard to get into first, reverse, and not smooth in any gears. So I just sat down and thought it all through, and decided to check my cables for free movement, because I could shift the tranny easy by hand at the levers. With the cables disconnected at the transmission, I tested the movement, using the shifter in the car. I discovered the selector cable (moving shifter side-to-side) was binding. Not knowing what else to do, I got in the car on the passengers side and rapidly moved the shifter, side-to-side, moving the selector cable back-and-forth about 100 times or so, and it worked. The side-to-side (selector motion) became really easy. so I hooked the cables back up to the transmission selector and shifting arms, and tried it. It moved freely, so I did a road test and guess what? For the first time in three years I could go through all 5-speeds easily and smoothly! (Well, as smooth as you can get with the notchy Getrag.) such an simple solution and easy to do. So, if your tranny is hard to get in gear, check the cables for free movement. If one is stiff, just move it back and forth, rapidly, to loosen up the cable. At least that's what worked for me. Evidently that new adjustable selector cable was binding when I first installed it, and just continued to get worse. If that selector cable binds at all, you will have a hard time shifting!

[This message has been edited by hypo327 (edited 07-06-2013).]

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sspeedstreet
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Report this Post07-16-2013 08:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sspeedstreetClick Here to Email sspeedstreetSend a Private Message to sspeedstreetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I got it apart and found the flywheel bolts backed out to the point of interfering with the clutch travel. DOH! I guess this happens with aluminum flywheels, from what I'm told. This time hardened washers and meticulous Locktite application. I may even safety wire them.

So here's my updated list of possible causes for Getrag 5-speed will not shift into any gear while running:

1. air in the clutch line or slave cylinder (improperly bled);
2. leaky seals in master or slave cylinders;
3. incorrect slave cylinder push rod;
4. cracked or loose slave cylinder mounting bracket
5. bent clutch pedal;
6. carpet in the way of clutch pedal;
7. worn clutch pedal linkage (banjo bolt hole)
8. insufficient hydraulic fluid in reservoir;
9. worn out clutch plate;
10. on a Getrag, the sleeve that the throw out bearing rides on may be broken (typical failure on a Getrag); or
11. Flywheel bolts backed out and interfering with the clutch travel
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hypo327
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Report this Post07-16-2013 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hypo327Click Here to Email hypo327Send a Private Message to hypo327Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sspeedstreet:

So I got it apart and found the flywheel bolts backed out to the point of interfering with the clutch travel. DOH! I guess this happens with aluminum flywheels, from what I'm told. This time hardened washers and meticulous Locktite application. I may even safety wire them.

So here's my updated list of possible causes for Getrag 5-speed will not shift into any gear while running:

1. air in the clutch line or slave cylinder (improperly bled);
2. leaky seals in master or slave cylinders;
3. incorrect slave cylinder push rod;
4. cracked or loose slave cylinder mounting bracket
5. bent clutch pedal;
6. carpet in the way of clutch pedal;
7. worn clutch pedal linkage (banjo bolt hole)
8. insufficient hydraulic fluid in reservoir;
9. worn out clutch plate;
10. on a Getrag, the sleeve that the throw out bearing rides on may be broken (typical failure on a Getrag); or
11. Flywheel bolts backed out and interfering with the clutch travel


You can add one more: 12. improperly operating selector cable! I had gone through all those points above, even bought new aluminum double o-ring master and slave from Rodney, but my shifting was terrible. I had to use two hands to get it in 5th gear. So, I decided to check my cables (I hadn't because they were brand new from the Fiero Store.) I disconnected them from the trans, which I could shift easily without the cables. Then got in the car and checked how they both moved, and found out that the selector cable was super stiff. Not knowing how to fix it, short of replacing it, I decided I'd get physical and see if I could loosen it up. I climbed in the passengers seat, on my knees, facing the shifter, and vigorously moved the shifter (selector cable) back-and-forth about 100 times until it seemed to be loosening up. I tried it sitting in the driver's seat, and got exited, because it did get loose and easy to move side-to-side! So, I hooked the linkage back up to the tranny, and my shifting has been like butter ever since. Sometimes things can be fixed in the simplest way...lol! :-) I fought that thing for two years, after installing the new adjustable shift/selector cables.
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Patrick
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Report this Post07-17-2013 12:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sspeedstreet:

So I got it apart and found the flywheel bolts backed out to the point of interfering with the clutch travel. DOH! I guess this happens with aluminum flywheels, from what I'm told.


I'm curious about this as I'm contemplating getting an aluminum flywheel to put into an '88 Formula. Do you have any sources online with info about the bolts backing out?

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-17-2013).]

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sspeedstreet
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Patrick
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Report this Post07-17-2013 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks very much for those links. Lots of great info there, including on an earlier page Here of one of the links you provided.

After reading all that, I'm kind of reluctant now to buy and install an aluminuim flywheel.

You obviously know a lot about this type of application. I don't recall ever seeing a comprehensive thread here at PFF about these issues. Any chance you'd care to start a thread regarding the pitfalls and possible solution(s) to installing an aluminum flywheel in our cars? Seems to me this would be quite a valuable asset to the Fiero community here at PFF.
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Report this Post07-17-2013 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:


Thanks very much for those links. Lots of great info there, including on an earlier page Here of one of the links you provided.

After reading all that, I'm kind of reluctant now to buy and install an aluminuim flywheel.

You obviously know a lot about this type of application. I don't recall ever seeing a comprehensive thread here at PFF about these issues. Any chance you'd care to start a thread regarding the pitfalls and possible solution(s) to installing an aluminum flywheel in our cars? Seems to me this would be quite a valuable asset to the Fiero community here at PFF.


I believe either blooz or Fieroguru has brought up the issue with aluminum flywheels up in their respective build threads, but their so long and detailed, you'd never see it...
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Patrick
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Report this Post07-17-2013 03:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:

...but their so long and detailed, you'd never see it...


Good point. We need a thread dedicated to the potential issues of installing an aluminum flywheel (as well as hopefully, solutions to these issues).

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-17-2013).]

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sspeedstreet
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Report this Post07-17-2013 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sspeedstreetClick Here to Email sspeedstreetSend a Private Message to sspeedstreetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Done.
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Report this Post04-17-2015 02:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for coltonandrewClick Here to Email coltonandrewSend a Private Message to coltonandrewEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thread res for the isuzu trans! 2.5 86 base model in my example. I had an adjustable clutch nut on my linkage. I turned that 6 times to press the nut out (away from the slave) and low and behold, my pedal engages the clutch at the halfway point and pulls it enough to allow me to shift like crunchy butter instead of into a brick wall! Still a mildly crunchy shift because isuzu.

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Report this Post04-17-2015 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by coltonandrew:

Still a mildly crunchy shift because isuzu.


I don't know what you mean by that. There is nothing inherently wrong with the Isuzu 5-spd that would prevent smooth shifts.
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