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Great Info on the GM High Feature Engine by Dennis LaGrua
Started on: 06-23-2013 11:14 AM
Replies: 26 (1548 views)
Last post by: Joseph Upson on 06-29-2013 09:17 AM
Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-23-2013 11:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is some discussion on the GM high feature swap here on this forum and I found a great article for some to read who are thinking about this engine swap. I've got this swap in my cross hairs as it is the most high tech V6 engine that GM is producing but the engine management task needs to be solved.
Just a few years back I could not imagine an aluminum, DOHC engine with VVT, polymer bi-Metal main/rod bearings, 62V injectors, an SIDI fuel system that operates at 2700 psi, an engine featuring silencers, having 11.3:1 compression, weighing in at 325 lbs, running on 87 octane gas and making over 300 HP. This engine is now an option in many GM cars. While many Fiero owners are looking at it, and bmwguru is getting close, I do not believe that any swap has been completed to date.
This article tells a bit about it. Its an amazing power plant and the way I see it, any swaps will need to be done employing the original GM PCM.
http://www.gmhightechperfor...olt_ons/viewall.html

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Report this Post06-23-2013 11:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TWrightClick Here to Email TWrightSend a Private Message to TWrightEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Has anybody done a basic check of dimensions to see if this package will fit? What are the basic issues to get it to work?
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Report this Post06-23-2013 11:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dennis...if nobody has responded to your duplicate post, you can change the headline to something like..."please delete this, it's a duplicate"
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Report this Post06-23-2013 12:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TWright:

Has anybody done a basic check of dimensions to see if this package will fit? What are the basic issues to get it to work?


Yes it will fit. See here.....

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/091238-2.html#p70


The operating system isn't a big deal once you think outside the box. I'm not in a race to finish my car, but I do want the nicest looking swap once I am complete. I've taken things apart and refabricated them a few times to achieve a certain level on my car.

Dave

------------------

www.hausofguru.com

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-23-2013 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Has anybody done a basic check of dimensions to see if this package will fit? What are the basic issues to get it to work?


Dave (bwmguru) has this engine installed in a Fiero and is now addressing the engine management. He is probably the first to try this swap. I am excited for him (and envious) as when he finishes, this will make for a great performing vehicle using modern technology.
A fairly complex PCM runs this engine and as stated before you have many things to manage like VVT an SIDI ignition and fueling system. You also need to figure a work around for the BCM and ABS module and everything else that the CAN BUS expects to see but are not there. If you try aftermarket engine management you will also need to find out how to fire fuel injectors that are designed to trigger on 62V (not 12V). I do not believe that any aftermarket PCM can be used as this engine also uses a very unique 2 wire knock sensor that is only compatible with this type of PCM.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-23-2013 01:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Dennis LaGrua

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quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


Yes it will fit. See here.....

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/091238-2.html#p70


The operating system isn't a big deal once you think outside the box. I'm not in a race to finish my car, but I do want the nicest looking swap once I am complete. I've taken things apart and refabricated them a few times to achieve a certain level on my car.

Dave



See the concerns that I have addressed in my last post. I am not stating that someone of your ability cannot solve these issues but they do look complex.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Report this Post06-23-2013 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


Dave (bwmguru) has this engine installed in a Fiero and is now addressing the engine management. He is probably the first to try this swap. I am excited for him (and envious) as when he finishes, this will make for a great performing vehicle using modern technology.
A fairly complex PCM runs this engine and as stated before you have many things to manage like VVT an SIDI ignition and fueling system. You also need to figure a work around for the BCM and ABS module and everything else that the CAN BUS expects to see but are not there. If you try aftermarket engine management you will also need to find out how to fire fuel injectors that are designed to trigger on 62V (not 12V). I do not believe that any aftermarket PCM can be used as this engine also uses a very unique 2 wire knock sensor that is only compatible with this type of PCM.



I'm not 100% certain on the GM engine, but on the VW engines, I can program out the other computers on the CAN-BUS lines so that the engine computer doesn't expect to see them. On the VR6, I routed the K line directly to the OBD II connector and to the engine computer taking the instrument cluster out of the equation. On the VR6, the cluster initiates the diagnostic. If the cluster is unplugged, the scan tool won't communicate with the rest of the car.
On the TDI we built, the operating system was too old to program out the ABS and airbag systems. It will set codes, but no driveability issues will be had.
The only reason I chose the Saab 2.8t was for the factory turbo, four cam V6 and VVT with drive by wire. It will give a proper sound to what I am trying to achieve with my car. I hope to have my car running before the end of this year, but if it doesn't happen, then next year.
Dave
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Report this Post06-23-2013 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm actually not impressed with the "at the wheels" power in stock form much less modified. I actually expected the modded power to be stock at the wheels...
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quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

If you try aftermarket engine management you will also need to find out how to fire fuel injectors that are designed to trigger on 62V (not 12V).



I'm not sure what engine uses this, but my high feature engine uses normal injectors (I have upgraded to a larger injector to suit my needs).
If you are referring to direct injection, it is high pressure that is driven by a mechanical fuel pump and has a normal electric pump in the tank. I've replaced quite a few pumps, followers and even camshafts on the direct injected Audi's, but that seemed to be an isolated issue.
Dave
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-24-2013 10:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


I'm not sure what engine uses this, but my high feature engine uses normal injectors (I have upgraded to a larger injector to suit my needs).
If you are referring to direct injection, it is high pressure that is driven by a mechanical fuel pump and has a normal electric pump in the tank. I've replaced quite a few pumps, followers and even camshafts on the direct injected Audi's, but that seemed to be an isolated issue.
Dave

This is the engine that I was referring to:


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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post06-24-2013 10:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have friends who work "in the field" at local GM dealerships and general auto repair shops who work on GM cars around town. I am not hearing good things about the GM SIDI 3.6L engines. The no.1 problem I'm hearing about them is severe carbon buildup on the intake valves - on some engines with as little as 10,000 - 20,000 miles on them. I'm also told there is a timing chain stretch issue with these engines.

I have not personally seen these engines with such problems as I do not perform general auto repair services but I am just passing the info along... So don't shoot the messenger!

-ryan

------------------
OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

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quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

I have friends who work "in the field" at local GM dealerships and general auto repair shops who work on GM cars around town. I am not hearing good things about the GM SIDI 3.6L engines. The no.1 problem I'm hearing about them is severe carbon buildup on the intake valves - on some engines with as little as 10,000 - 20,000 miles on them. I'm also told there is a timing chain stretch issue with these engines.

I have not personally seen these engines with such problems as I do not perform general auto repair services but I am just passing the info along... So don't shoot the messenger!

-ryan




I have been working on the BMW direct injected engines for a while now (sorry, no GM experience here) and they are also having issues with carbon buildup on the intake valves. We pull the intake and media blast the valves. It pays well, so I don't complain.
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Report this Post06-24-2013 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The carbon build up is the result of PCV vapors hitting the hot intake valves and coking.

In a port injected engine, this is not a problem as the injectors are constantly spraying fuel at the valves. This helps A) keep the valves a little cooler and B) wash away the oily residues from the PCV system before they have a chance to coke.

Since none of that happens in a direct injected engine, the PCV vapors form cabon deposits on the valves. It's worse with EGR.

In the new LT1 Vette engine, GM went to EXTENSIVE lengths to enhance the PCV system's oil separation capabilities to prevent intake valve coking. I would guess that for an engine swap, two to three moderately sized catch cans in series should provide adequate oil separation to prevent coking.

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-24-2013 11:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

I have friends who work "in the field" at local GM dealerships and general auto repair shops who work on GM cars around town. I am not hearing good things about the GM SIDI 3.6L engines. The no.1 problem I'm hearing about them is severe carbon buildup on the intake valves - on some engines with as little as 10,000 - 20,000 miles on them. I'm also told there is a timing chain stretch issue with these engines.

I have not personally seen these engines with such problems as I do not perform general auto repair services but I am just passing the info along... So don't shoot the messenger!

-ryan



Thanks for the info. I make it a point to "never shoot the messenger" as you say. It must be reminded that we are here to speak about Fieros and technical things not about people.
As for carbon buildup on the intake valves w DI that makes sense and is something that the engine manufacturers will need to address. If Dave sees this even on BMW engines then it might be a downside to DI. Since only air (without fuel)) passes through the intake valves on DI the solvent effect is gone.
At the GM tech seminar that I was just at, no mention was made of that. No surprise there but still some great info on the high feature engines was passed on. To work on these engines its seems that with this platform you must learn and follow a completely new protocol . Maybe one day soon we will see 3.6L LLT swaps.. Can't keep relying on old technology swaps forever!

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Darth Fiero
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A little off-topic but, the neighbor at the lake just bought a new tri-toon last year and it came with a direct injected 2-stroke 150hp mercury outboard. I need to figure out how they are handling crankcase lubrication on that engine. It has an pretty impressive power curve.
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quote
Originally posted by Will:

The carbon build up is the result of PCV vapors hitting the hot intake valves and coking.

In a port injected engine, this is not a problem as the injectors are constantly spraying fuel at the valves. This helps A) keep the valves a little cooler and B) wash away the oily residues from the PCV system before they have a chance to coke.

Since none of that happens in a direct injected engine, the PCV vapors form cabon deposits on the valves. It's worse with EGR.

In the new LT1 Vette engine, GM went to EXTENSIVE lengths to enhance the PCV system's oil separation capabilities to prevent intake valve coking. I would guess that for an engine swap, two to three moderately sized catch cans in series should provide adequate oil separation to prevent coking.


It sounds to me like you would need some kind of condenser to get the oil vapors to fall out of suspension and back into liquid form so they could then be collected (and recycled?) so they don't end up in the intake manifold.

OR, if you are doing a swap where emissions isn't a concern, you could just run check valves in your exhaust and use exhaust scavenging to pull a vacuum on the crankcase and handle all the vapors that way and not even send them thru the intake at all...
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Report this Post06-24-2013 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

A little off-topic but, the neighbor at the lake just bought a new tri-toon last year and it came with a direct injected 2-stroke 150hp mercury outboard. I need to figure out how they are handling crankcase lubrication on that engine. It has an pretty impressive power curve.


Direct injection is a boon for 2 strokes because all the fuel delivery problems go completely away. There also aren't any intake valves to coke (I assume...).
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Report this Post06-24-2013 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Will

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quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


It sounds to me like you would need some kind of condenser to get the oil vapors to fall out of suspension and back into liquid form so they could then be collected (and recycled?) so they don't end up in the intake manifold.

OR, if you are doing a swap where emissions isn't a concern, you could just run check valves in your exhaust and use exhaust scavenging to pull a vacuum on the crankcase and handle all the vapors that way and not even send them thru the intake at all...


Run the PCV effluent through the air conditioner?
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Report this Post06-25-2013 01:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Run the PCV effluent through the air conditioner?


LOL you know what I meant (and no, it wasn't run it thru the a/c system)
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Report this Post06-25-2013 10:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My personal preference would be dry sump to eliminate PCV-related problems
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Report this Post06-27-2013 05:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This same engine was also offered in sequential fuel injection on 2008 on up Malibu's and similar GM's. As I recall it produced in the 260 hp range. Would this configuration be an easier swap and also avoid the carbon build up problems?

Some of the later model 3.6's have spun bearings. I work at a Chevy dealership and we had a late model Buick La Cross with the 3.6 that did this. Don't know if it is limited to a certain production run of engines.

[This message has been edited by Rick 88 (edited 06-27-2013).]

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Report this Post06-28-2013 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rick 88:

This same engine was also offered in sequential fuel injection on 2008 on up Malibu's and similar GM's. As I recall it produced in the 260 hp range. Would this configuration be an easier swap and also avoid the carbon build up problems?

Some of the later model 3.6's have spun bearings. I work at a Chevy dealership and we had a late model Buick La Cross with the 3.6 that did this. Don't know if it is limited to a certain production run of engines.



The high feature engines use newly developed polymer bi-metal bearings. Perhaps a few years and more mileage on the highway is needed to discover if the design formula has been perfected.

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-30-2013).]

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Report this Post06-29-2013 06:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is what made me want to go high feature....

http://vtunersaabs.com/?p=37

It is what I want in the power level range, and I sent my turbo out to have the bearing upgrade and the bigger compressor wheel installed. I upgraded my injectors and removed the cat. Those numbers I believe are with the cat, so I expect a small increase. The only thing let to do is decide if I plan to use the Bosch ecu or go with a standalone.

Dave
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Report this Post06-29-2013 08:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Run the PCV effluent through the air conditioner?


A baffled oil catch can should do it, Autospeed built one with good size fittings for air flow and filled it with stainless steel pot scrapers to catch the oil droplets as the gasses moved through it.

That along with an occasional spray from an water/meth system might be enough to keep the valves clean.

The chain stretch issue was addressed at some point later in production after it was identified through a chronic DTC related to VVT timing (according lit), turned out the first production chains were not hardened leading to the stretch. That may have been exacerbated by GMs move to less and less product material use when you consider how narrow the timing chains are in the later 60 deg motors, scary thin.

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quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


The chain stretch issue was addressed at some point later in production after it was identified through a chronic DTC related to VVT timing (according lit), turned out the first production chains were not hardened leading to the stretch. That may have been exacerbated by GMs move to less and less product material use when you consider how narrow the timing chains are in the later 60 deg motors, scary thin.


That was resolved in the 2007 and later engines.
Dave
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Report this Post06-29-2013 08:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Purple86GTClick Here to Email Purple86GTSend a Private Message to Purple86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How are the diesels doing it? I know on my VW ALH TDI engine, the intake used to get a nasty buildup because of the high sulfur diesel and the EGR. But the valves always remained clean.

Maybe operating temps of the engine need to be raised? Burn off the oil before it turns to a carbon buildup? in a gas engine, this is difficult due to detonation. Maybe some sort of Teflon coating on the valves? Something like the m90 supercharger rotors? Not sure how the Teflon likes the heat however...

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Report this Post06-29-2013 09:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
This is what made me want to go high feature....

http://vtunersaabs.com/?p=37

It is what I want in the power level range, and I sent my turbo out to have the bearing upgrade and the bigger compressor wheel installed. I upgraded my injectors and removed the cat. Those numbers I believe are with the cat, so I expect a small increase. The only thing let to do is decide if I plan to use the Bosch ecu or go with a standalone.
Dave


That's an impressive power curve however I'd be concerned about the trannies durability behind that kind of low end torque in the Fiero. The Saabs have to fight wheel spin in the FWD format which helps limit the duration of the peak torque loads, you will not unless you stick with stock flavor size tires. My car plants and goes and I believe that really took its toll on my first tranny although the one I got brand new from you is still going strong. Unfortunately you've gotta run upwards of 30+ psi of boost to get those number according to dyno results by a Saab owner.

This Saab owner is claiming 7 F40s,
http://www.saabcentral.com/...wthread.php?t=163818

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 06-29-2013).]

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