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2nd Gen Headlight Pin Replacement by Fierology
Started on: 05-22-2013 08:05 PM
Replies: 56 (1320 views)
Last post by: 82-T/A [At Work] on 10-10-2019 01:58 AM
Chris Eddy
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Report this Post04-13-2017 05:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Chris EddyClick Here to Email Chris EddySend a Private Message to Chris EddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This may be related (or Ill give you a full refund)..
I looked at the gen 2 headlight control module circuit. I was expecting a circuit that activates for a set time period, but also measures current and shuts off when it measures a certain amount.
This is not the case.
The circuit appears to be a timer (there are 2, it is a dual circuit with one relay and two transistors) that activates for a set period of time. There does not appear to be any measurement of current at all. So that means that when the motor hits the end stop, the circuit will deliver a lot of current for the remaining time that the circuit is on.
So I put an oscilloscope on it, and verified this.
When the motor goes in the open direction, it draws about 1.6A. But it starts briefly at 5.3A and ends at 4.6A.
The total time to open is 1.75 seconds.
When the motor goes in the down direction, it draws about 0.7A. But it starts briefly at 5.3A and ends at 5.3A. When it reaches the end, it briefly steps up to 2.1A, then goes to 5.3A. Could this be the cushion pin? Go ahead and laugh, I repaired mine with small cylinders of oak dowel. So there is no play in them.
The total time to close is 1.50 seconds.
But there is no evidence of a prolonged high current state. So if it were just a simple timer, it would draw current for an additional time.

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Rodney
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Report this Post04-13-2017 08:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

When I was trying to replicate the 87/88 controller I put a small light bulb on the wires to my 88 headlight motor. The light lit when the motor was running and shut of that exact time the headlight was full open and full closed. I did a short video of it. It certainly appears to be a current rise switching device. When my pins were bad years ago it would go part way up and dance for several seconds. So yes there is a timer but it also appears to be a current rise controller.

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Rodney Dickman

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Chris Eddy
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Report this Post04-13-2017 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Chris EddyClick Here to Email Chris EddySend a Private Message to Chris EddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I think I see it.. the power transistors have an on resistance. As the current rises, the voltage on the transistor rises. I see traces that go to a smaller transistor and then the IC. So they are sensing current on each of the motors by the loss across the transistor.
The relay determines which direction the motor polarity is. The transistor is the on switch to enable the motor.
What about those connectors.. if I could get those I could make a replica.
Meanwhile I will make a device with pigtails and connectors on it.. I have some 4 and 5 pin Metri-pack of that male type on the way to play with.

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Rodney
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Report this Post04-13-2017 08:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Good luck. The IC chip is renumbered and we had no idea what it was, did. We gave up.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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theogre
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Report this Post04-13-2017 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:
Failures like this are extremely rare. I've seen a few spin on the shaft thru the years. Maybe a few dozen over many many years. I've sold thousands of kits. Firebirds and C4 Corvettes also. If spinning on the shaft was a common problem it would be discussed here on a regular basis. It is not because it rarely happens. At most a handful of people have contacted me thru the years with slipping aluminum pieces. That is Fiero, Firebird and C4 Corvettes combined. C4 Corvettes take a lot more abuse and some (not all that uncommon) actually strip the teeth out of the factory plastic gear. Yet very, very few C4 Corvette owners ever have the aluminum piece strip on the knurled shaft.
Nice spin.

Broken plastic gear or spun output shaft are both cause by Delrin pins. Metal gear w/ Delrin pins just move the fail point to the output shaft or any other part that's "weak."

Reviews are most first few days after fixing current problem. Very Few will report problems after using a product months to years latter.

More likely is not a regular topic:
Many collector and others don't drive much or at all. If they drive then Rarely at night and Never in bad weather if possible. Example: I drive my Fiero only local and mostly day time for ~10 years now. I have other cars to take a trip, drive when snow on roads, etc.
Many owners sold or junk the car before they have this problem.
When the motor dies again is often someone else's problem and never go online to report it. Many have no clue what the problem is even if they figure out the pins aren't OEM.

Then add You can get new Gen2 GM/ACdelco units until last few years and Cardone sells Rebuilt and New motors thru AZ and others so many just get them when motors go fatal and never bother why.

Then add PFF and other claiming Many Thousands users but is bs. AOL and others even counts cancel accounts to reach the number they claim. Active users are wholly different number and active member changes over time.
Forums has many users asking 1 or 2 questions then leave because only value was finding the answers. Example: MrFieroUK has 30 Posts in 2001-2. Some are needed to get pass MOT inspection but fail for brakes then came hear for help, tried a few thing, and never heard from again.
Many users have several users names for various reasons.

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theogre
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Report this Post04-13-2017 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Chris Eddy:
This may be related (or Ill give you a full refund)..
I looked at the gen 2 headlight control module circuit. I was expecting a circuit that activates for a set time period, but also measures current and shuts off when it measures a certain amount.
This is not the case.
The circuit appears to be a timer (there are 2, it is a dual circuit with one relay and two transistors) that activates for a set period of time. There does not appear to be any measurement of current at all. So that means that when the motor hits the end stop, the circuit will deliver a lot of current for the remaining time that the circuit is on.
So I put an oscilloscope on it, and verified this.
When the motor goes in the open direction, it draws about 1.6A. But it starts briefly at 5.3A and ends at 4.6A.
The total time to open is 1.75 seconds.
When the motor goes in the down direction, it draws about 0.7A. But it starts briefly at 5.3A and ends at 5.3A. When it reaches the end, it briefly steps up to 2.1A, then goes to 5.3A. Could this be the cushion pin? Go ahead and laugh, I repaired mine with small cylinders of oak dowel. So there is no play in them.
The total time to close is 1.50 seconds.
But there is no evidence of a prolonged high current state. So if it were just a simple timer, it would draw current for an additional time.
Either you are testing wrong or module have problems.

Yes there are timers for both motors.
But Motor drawing too many amps will shut off. Even a binding motor can trip the module to kills power as covered in my cave.
Load monitoring can be done w/o a chip. Could be looking for a volt drop w/ stalled motor not actual amp draw. I don't have time or interest to trace the module.

Simple test with w/ parts in the car...
Back Probing the motor connection w/ a volt meter or maybe a small test light should show the module will shut off at end of travel or jams.
unloaded or unplug motor then module will stay on until 5 sec timer run out.

I even check this evening to make sure. New motors are so fast w/ hood open that my old Fluke could only update the display 1 time then module is off again. 0v to 10-11v back to 0v in ~1 second (but ~11 volts aren't very accurate w/ the slow meter.) I then put a old motor to same module connector just to watch it spin for 5 sec then shut off. Started to rain and dark so stop trying more tests.

ETA--> ~11v is good here because I tested w/ engine off.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-13-2017).]

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Rodney
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Report this Post04-14-2017 04:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

.

[This message has been edited by Rodney (edited 04-14-2017).]

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Rodney
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Report this Post04-14-2017 04:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Broken plastic gear or spun output shaft are both cause by Delrin pins. Metal gear w/ Delrin pins just move the fail point to the output shaft or any other part that's "weak."


You are wrong. Period. I've sold thousands of these Delrin bushings for over 20+ years. Where are these thousands of broken motors??


------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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theogre
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Report this Post04-14-2017 05:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Chris Eddy:
I think I see it.. the power transistors have an on resistance. As the current rises, the voltage on the transistor rises. I see traces that go to a smaller transistor and then the IC. So they are sensing current on each of the motors by the loss across the transistor.
The relay determines which direction the motor polarity is. The transistor is the on switch to enable the motor.
What about those connectors.. if I could get those I could make a replica.
Meanwhile I will make a device with pigtails and connectors on it.. I have some 4 and 5 pin Metri-pack of that male type on the way to play with.
Sounds about right. I was testing/posting while you post this.

the module connectors for the harness likely are not available now. even if they where years ago likely only a dealer could get them. Not a huge demand so Dorman and others likely never bothered to stock them.
Module side was likely never make as a standalone parts.

Making a module could have same problems fixed OE units... fried module and 1 or both motors. From what you say here...
If you find all parts but upgrade the MOSFET because they don't make a exact match then the MOSFET could be way off for resistance and lie to other parts keeping the power on until timer runs out. You would need to recalculate load sense circuits for the new MOSFET.

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Rodney
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Report this Post04-14-2017 05:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Broken plastic gear or spun output shaft are both cause by Delrin pins. Metal gear w/ Delrin pins just move the fail point to the output shaft or any other part that's "weak."

Reviews are most first few days after fixing current problem. Very Few will report problems after using a product months to years latter.

More likely is not a regular topic:
Many collector and others don't drive much or at all. If they drive then Rarely at night and Never in bad weather if possible. Example: I drive my Fiero only local and mostly day time for ~10 years now. I have other cars to take a trip, drive when snow on roads, etc.
Many owners sold or junk the car before they have this problem.
When the motor dies again is often someone else's problem and never go online to report it. Many have no clue what the problem is even if they figure out the pins aren't OEM.
.



For those reading this topic: How many of you have had broken gears or slipping shafts in their 87/88 headlight motors?

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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theogre
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Report this Post04-14-2017 07:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:
For those reading this topic: How many of you have had broken gears or slipping shafts in their 87/88 headlight motors?
Asking this all year but the sample is too small to mean anything. 100 people can say no problem and still mean nothing because No-one looks until a part is dead. The damage gear I had could been there for months but the motor started jamming to open the door.

 
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:
You are wrong. Period. I've sold thousands of these Delrin bushings for over 20+ years. Where are these thousands of broken motors??
Yup. You Eckler's and others think you knows better than GM Ford and other engineers to push Delrin pins for Gen2 motors for around two decades. Yet you never bother to find what plastic used by GM Ford and Dorman and what for development? Just copy or "improved" Eckler's pins?

For the rest of that statement... You don't read? Or just ignore this for whatever reason? Maybe Pretending your a victim to sell? Or afraid that others might read all data here.

Already said where they are and why is not a regular topic.
Plus Most people don't report failed parts or products to you or anyone else. More so when parts break more then a year from buying them. Often not even when many parts have a lifetime warranty like AZ starters and alternators.

My case took years for the pins to damage the gear and finally break the output shaft BECAUSE I do not drive the Fiero more then ~1500mpy. (I was a little off above.)
last 3 DMV inspection tracking odometer numbers for last 6 years and I get next one in May.
05/15 219515
05/13 216831
05/11 212864
=1342mpy average for 13-15
=1983.5mpy average for 11-13
=1662.75mpy average for 4 years

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-14-2017).]

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Rodney
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Report this Post04-14-2017 07:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Plus Most people don't report failed parts or products to you or anyone else. More so when parts break more then a year from buying them.



Baloney. Most everyone here would be posting here if they bought parts from me or anyone else if they were failing/doing damage.

Again: I have been doing this for over 20 years and have only seen a handful that have stripped the aluminum piece and even less that have had a broken gear.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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fierofool
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Report this Post04-14-2017 09:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have. X2

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/074775.html#

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 04-14-2017).]

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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post10-09-2019 11:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Figured I'd add onto this thread, rather than start a new one. Does anyone know where we can source new headlight gear bushings? Not talking about the pins that go in the rebuildable motors, but the actual bushings that go between the armature in the headlight assembly?

I was able to make a fairly decent set from a junkyard car, a parts car, and my original Fiero; however, I'd prefer to all have matching sets. I greased them when I re-installed them (machine grease, not lithium grease)... but if someone sells a new set, that would be better. Anyone know of a place that sells these?


Unnecessary and gratuitous picture of re-assembled headlight assembly:

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Mike in Sydney
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Report this Post10-10-2019 12:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Mike in SydneySend a Private Message to Mike in SydneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Rodney Dickman sells the plastic bushings that go on the lift arm. Is that what you mean?

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Mike in Sydney

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theogre
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Report this Post10-10-2019 01:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Not sure what you mean...

If motor bearings etc. are worn or bad not just needs new gaskets...
I would get New motors and stop rebuilding old ones.
cheap have little/no warranty
AZ Cardone and other are more expensive but lifetime warranty.

RD has some link bushing, link from motor output to HL bucket in http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/143021.html#p6
http://rodneydickman.com/ca...h=32&products_id=362
Large bushing for bucket pivots have to look elsewhere. Maybe Dorman in Help!

If parts are plastic or rubber... Unless "machine grease" is plastic/rubber safe can cause same problems using any oil/grease including most syn types.
GM install nearly all plastic/rubber pivot bushings dry. Can take apart, clean all, spray only metal w/ Dry Teflon and done.

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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post10-10-2019 01:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

YES!!! That is EXACTLY what I mean! Thanks guys, I appreciate it greatly! I've been on his site for days and for some reason those never popped up!!!

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