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Car starts, wont stay running unless moving throttle. by Shonyman32
Started on: 02-28-2013 11:25 AM
Replies: 207 (6338 views)
Last post by: 2.5 on 11-27-2013 11:18 AM
Shonyman32
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Report this Post05-24-2013 05:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Drove it with the map unplugged and acceleratted fine up to is second gear shift (auto). Plugged it back in ran like it did.
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Report this Post05-24-2013 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Robertzep2Click Here to Email Robertzep2Send a Private Message to Robertzep2Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Shonyman32:

Drove it with the map unplugged and acceleratted fine up to is second gear shift (auto). Plugged it back in ran like it did.


That sounds encouraging! A low vacuum will cause a rich mixture. You do need to scan and see if you go into closed loop, I am still concerned that your O2 sensor is failing and keeping you in open loop. Keep digging your getting close!

[This message has been edited by Robertzep2 (edited 05-24-2013).]

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Shonyman32
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Report this Post05-24-2013 06:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Since low vac can cause a rich mixture, I dont know if my cam is bigger than stock. It has a considerable amount more duration then a comp cam I have but less lift ( using stock springs in heads)
I bought a block and several other items of a person and in those items was two brand new cam's and a used cam. I decided to go with the cam with less lift and more duration due fiero intake and the less lift is easier on parts.
Also its a 2.8 bored .040 over and has a 3.1 crank and pistons.

I know a bigger cam will lower vaccuum.

I will be buying a new 02 sensor and sticking it in here shortly. I will use your method and test if my car is coming out of open loopnas well. ( before and after 02 purchase)

Also just re read my last post and it didn't make much sense. When I unplugged the map sensor and drove it it accelerated fine with very little throttle and in second it hardly have enough power to drive 20 or 30 mph.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post05-26-2013 03:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What about bad valve lash?

Haven't replaced 02 yet.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post05-29-2013 03:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a code 34 but there is no error code just when I jumper the A and B terminals.

Code 34 is the map sensor so should I just replace it?
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Report this Post05-29-2013 03:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TKSend a Private Message to TKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Shonyman32:

I have a code 34 but there is no error code just when I jumper the A and B terminals.

Code 34 is the map sensor so should I just replace it?


If your cam is giving you less vacuum than stock you might need to recalibrate the map limits but I wouldn't change the map just yet. You would need a pretty wonky cam for the vacuum to drop low enough for a code 34 to set. The ECM map window is pretty large.

Code 34 means the map voltage is high (low vacuum/high pressure.) When the engine is off, the map reads the atmospheric pressure which is 14.7 psi (at sea level.) That should be around 4.2V on the map. When you start the car, the vacuum of the engine pulls the map voltage down (less pressure) and the voltage will drop to around 1-2V or so at idle.

I think your problem is a hose leak to the map and it's not getting the vacuum (or full vacuum) from the engine and it's throwing the code 34. Idle the engine, remove the vac line to the map and put your finger on it. Do you feel vacuum? If not, fix that first. If necessary, run a single hose from the TB or upper manifold port to the map directly and check it. If you do have a good vacuum them I might consider replacing the map but they don't go bad all that often. Replacing it's the first thing to check. If you have a scanner, look at the map voltage with the engine off. it should be over 4V. Then suck on the hose and it should drop towards 1V (you probably won't get to 1V completely.) If that doesn't work, then the map is probably bad or your cam is really giving you low vacuum.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 05-29-2013).]

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Report this Post05-29-2013 04:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerClick Here to Email BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just fixed my son's 3800 today with the same problem. It was the IAC. The unit itself was fine but it was filthy and so was the niche where it mounts. I used throttle body spray and a baby bottle brush to clean the IAC and inside the hole. I had to spray the brush clean and then stick it back in the hole many times to get it mostly clean.

The IAC had two different screws holding it in so I'm betting someone else messed with it at some point. He's just had the car one month and it is a 1993 Park Avenue. I'd say someone tried to swap the part and didn't bother cleaning out the mounting hole.

Anyway, that's all it took this time.

------------------
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post05-29-2013 06:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My IAC is clean as can be right now.

Just through code 44 so I am going into closed loop!

Ill work on it tonight and see if it gets better.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post05-30-2013 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got code 44 away and 34 hasn't came back but I didn't do anything to solve code 34.
I took my 02 sensor out to clean it and it was dirty. Sprayed cleaner on it heated it up and sprayed more cleaner on then sprayed all the gunk out with an air hose.

Now wondering where the best place to buy a scan tool or download something to a laptop to read codes like scan tool?
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post05-30-2013 08:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Re timed it and drove like a champ: no codes or stutters from take off but my Fcc is engaging then disengaging around 35 to 45 making the car shake a bit but I know why.

My car is idling around 600 to 700 and will not start unless I open the throttle up a bit but I can now let go of the throttle and let it idle. Sometimes when I come to a stop sign it will die and will die everytime I come to a stop with the fan on.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post05-31-2013 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump
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Report this Post05-31-2013 06:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Could my IAC not be working even though its new?
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post06-01-2013 04:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Doing the daily bump to see if anyone else has input.
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Report this Post06-01-2013 04:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fcc?
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post06-01-2013 11:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I assume you mean tcc? I know that's not it.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-21-2013 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well the car is running lean from backyard mechanics type test.

Sprayed gas into the intake from spray bottle (after the filter) and the car idle went up a bit and when held at a steady rpm (the rpm generally doesn't hold for long until it falls down then raised then falls then raises) the engine ran smoother with no misses and held an rpm that was about 300 - 500 rpm high then when not spraying gas.

Any suggestions? Or do I need to elaborate a little more?

Also after ready the comments I can see why you said FCC, because I said it. I did mean TCC.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-22-2013 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
BUMP
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FearArrow
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Report this Post07-22-2013 01:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FearArrowSend a Private Message to FearArrowEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think someone else might have mentioned this earlier, but did you change the fuel filter? I had a rough and high idle that surged, I changed the fuel filter, found a loose boot on a plug wire, and cleaned a dirty throttle body and it runs great now.

------------------
1997 Grand Prix GTP-(totaled)
1993 Firebird Formula-(Sold)
2006 Grand Prix GT-(Sold)
1988 Fiero Formula 5spd T-tops - Current Ride
2011 Chevy HHR LT - Kid hauler
Its better to burn out then fade away (but you go through more tires)

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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-22-2013 01:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a brand new fuel filter. I will look at it and make sure its installed correctly, although I'm sure it is.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-22-2013 03:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Could my fuel regulator be bleeding off to much fuel?

I have read before to pinch the return line to do a simple check but does that harm the components?
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-22-2013 03:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Shonyman32

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Or possibly since it is a 2.8 stoked to a 3.1 (using 3.1 block) and bored .040 over, and I have good fuel pressure does anyone think that I need a bigger injectors?

Haven't tested my fuel pressure recently but last time I checked it, it was within spec. I will check again when I get the chance to make sure.

[This message has been edited by Shonyman32 (edited 07-22-2013).]

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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-22-2013 07:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The car has not run right since the rebuild.
The car runs worse when cold then when hot as well.
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AL68
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Report this Post07-23-2013 12:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AL68Click Here to Email AL68Send a Private Message to AL68Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
check your grounds - I found this thread & after adding the 2 missing ground straps on my 86GT my cold start/idle/hesitation problems are gone.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/043240.html

Also, does your temp sensor read correctly on a scanner? I have a Formula that had a new temp sensor but the plug terminals were corroded inside,
it thought it was at 38 degrees all the time. Would run rich & keep it in closed loop.

[This message has been edited by AL68 (edited 07-23-2013).]

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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-23-2013 03:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All temp. sensors work like they should.

I will add two more ground straps.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-23-2013 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just checked the resistance on the grounds.
ENGINE - FRAME
FRAME - NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL
ENGINE - NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL

All had basically 0 resistance.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-23-2013 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just checked the resistance on the grounds.
ENGINE - FRAME
FRAME - NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL
ENGINE - NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL

All had basically 0 resistance.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-24-2013 01:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
bump
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kikinz24
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Report this Post07-24-2013 05:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Man now I see exactly why you pm'd me... pretty much exactly what mine does.... this is what I did I took a small common screw driver and placed it between the stop for the throttle body...hel it in place and had my bro start it. It idled.... little low but it held an idle... so I pulled the butterfly out and shaved a little from the bottom and top allowing just a bit more air into it... she starts and idles fine.... only issue It has is when driving it coming to a stop it stalls "when I push the clutch in" .. but not all the time... honestly I think it needs a tune.. or according to my bro some boost to get the air flow up.. do you have a stock pcm or upgrade that aswell?
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-24-2013 05:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a stock PCM.
I have done the IAC reset on the ogres cave and adjusted the throttle body plate.
Haven't mess with any tuning.

Does your car run better warm or cold? My car runs a lot better warm.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-25-2013 02:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What are the reasons why a car could die at a stop sign other than the TCC.
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Report this Post07-25-2013 05:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Deff better when its warm... as for iac I completly removed the internals from mine so it gets the most air as possible thrue the tb... only issue I can think of is lack of vaccume. Idk?? As I said I ended up shaving my tb butterfly to get a bit more air and now it hold and idle.. if you do shave ur tb do it in very smallllll incriments bc if you shave too much it'll idle extremly high and run lean at idle..
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-25-2013 11:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I already think I am running lean at idle now though.
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Report this Post07-25-2013 01:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just overhauled...
Timing set properly?
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-25-2013 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Timing set properly. Done with the haynes manual. I did it and my instructor looked it over and confirmed it. He has been a mechanic for 30 years.

Valve lash I did according to the haynes manual as well but it was still my first time doing it.

It was completely overhauled. Top and bottom end but only the mechanicals. I swapped the wiring harness and sensors.
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Report this Post07-25-2013 10:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gtpheartClick Here to Email gtpheartSend a Private Message to gtpheartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
maybe try to find a set of 3.1 heads? had a buddy with a 350 that had 305 heads on it and it acted almost identically to what your describing. Other than that if youve ran some kind of treatment through your fuel system your gonna wanna replace the filter again unless you pull it off and the fuel that comes out is clear. I don't think bigger injectors would do much for you. WIth it having a cam you may wanna look into a different set of rockers maybe? I'm just throwing some ideas out based on my experience with 3800's and 350's
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Report this Post07-26-2013 10:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just a quick question.. why do you think its running lean??? Try what I did have someone start the car while you ever so slightly hold the throttle open.. by literally a few mm. If it runs bettter and idles then you're not getting enough air.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-26-2013 01:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I used a spray bottle to spray gas into the intake and it ran a little better.
The car dies cold no matter what. Even if I hold the throttle at a constant 1500 rpm's cold it will die after a few seconds.

Also just through code 35 today. Looks like I'm doing another IAC reset. (only code)
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-26-2013 05:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Turned the idle up a little bit. It now wants to die when putting it in gear when hot more often.
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Shonyman32
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Report this Post07-27-2013 01:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shonyman32Send a Private Message to Shonyman32Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It does Idle a tad better but I have to hold the throttle a bit when putting it into gear.
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Report this Post07-27-2013 02:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kikinz24Click Here to Email kikinz24Send a Private Message to kikinz24Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok try this . On the tps there is a lever that moves with the throttle. Take a pair of needle nose pliers and bend it a bit. As though you are opening the throttle when you really aren't.. basically tricking the pcm to believing throttle is open 10-15% and to add more fuel
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