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Torque Steer? by indygrandprix
Started on: 12-03-2012 11:54 PM
Replies: 36 (1274 views)
Last post by: dobey on 04-26-2014 08:37 AM
indygrandprix
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Report this Post12-03-2012 11:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for indygrandprixSend a Private Message to indygrandprixEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Can fieros get torque steer? Mine seems to have it after i replaced the drivers side cv axle (which was extremely loose. It pulls right on acceleration and left on deceleration.

Has anyone else had this problem and how is it fixed? (I always thought torque steer was only on FWD cars)
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Report this Post12-04-2012 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No...

"It pulls right on acceleration and left on deceleration."
like soft bushings, usually the cradle bushings.
See my Cave, Bushings

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Report this Post12-04-2012 01:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also maybe bad engine/Trans mounts

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86 Fiero GTX project now tearing up the street, My build thread! 3800sc, interior, wheels, suspension and more! http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089483.html

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Report this Post12-04-2012 07:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In my mind (questionable) torque steer is only related to front wheel drive cars.
TS is a condition of HP & traction considering front axle length (uneven on most cars)
Under acceleration more traction is evident on one side or the other and you feel it in the steering wheel.
What you are experiencing is most likely some type of suspension flexing in the rear or wheel bearing issue.
Check all suspension, cradle & motor mounts, shocks for leaks, wheel bearings and CV joints.
Don't over look tire pressures either. How is your wheel alignment?
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Report this Post12-04-2012 11:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My money is on a bad tie rod end
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Report this Post12-04-2012 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

No...

"It pulls right on acceleration and left on deceleration."
like soft bushings, usually the cradle bushings.
See my Cave, Bushings




I was gonna say A-Arm bushings
but - yes - while somewhat like torque steer, something is moving under load.

cradle bushings, a-arm bushing - yes - rear tie-rod too
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Report this Post12-04-2012 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Because dog bone mounting, cradle gets uneven load by engine and whole cradle will twist in accel/decal.
Manual trans is worse but auto can to it too.

New cradle bushing is bad enough, old soft bushing makes car vary hard to handle.
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Report this Post12-04-2012 10:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ReallybigSend a Private Message to ReallybigEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have this same problem right now with my fiero. The car drove straight and true but after some heavy launches, it now pulls to the right when I accelerate and I have to steer to the left a bit to correct it. When I let off the gas, my steering correction causes the car to pull to the left. Coasting, the steering wheel is level where it should be. Mine is an 88 so I don't buy into the cradle bushing problem for me and I am sure the bolts were tightened well. The whole rear end has new poly bushings, so it can't be soft bushings (unless they have fallen apart). I have wide spread engine mounts and no dog bone so it can't be caused by the dog bone pressure twisting the cradle. 88's have no tie rod ends so that can't be it...
I list my circumstances to help the OP understand that others have this problem too, and can eliminate some of the probable causes. I don't know why yet as I haven't looked into it but am thinking it could be a broken strut changing it's position under load, or cracked/broken cradle weld. I'll dig into my problem to hopefully help add an actual cause for this symptom (and fix my car at the same time)
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Report this Post12-04-2012 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Reallybig:

I don't know why yet as I haven't looked into it...


A unique '88 problem is that the bolt that holds the two lateral links to the rear knuckle eventually wears the hole in the knuckle out of round and allows the knuckle to steer ever so slightly. Even a small deflection in rear toe will cause noticeable yaw.

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Report this Post12-04-2012 10:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ReallybigSend a Private Message to ReallybigEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:


A unique '88 problem is that the bolt that holds the two lateral links to the rear knuckle eventually wears the hole in the knuckle out of round and allows the knuckle to steer ever so slightly. Even a small deflection in rear toe will cause noticeable yaw.


Everything looked good when I put it back together 500km's ago, but I'll check there first.

Thanks!
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Report this Post12-04-2012 10:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for marshall12285Send a Private Message to marshall12285Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The bushings definitely can go bad and cause this(among other things), but I even had the bolt that runs through the control arm bushing get so thinned out by rust it caused the same problem you're having by allowing the bushing to move around over it.
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Report this Post06-08-2013 10:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierocarpartsClick Here to Email fierocarpartsSend a Private Message to fierocarpartsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Had an 88 doing the same thing you described. Went for the obvious first, motor mounts. Yep, front tranny and engine mount both bad. But it didn't fix the problem. Improved it but didn't fix it. Worn bushings.
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Report this Post06-08-2013 03:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for donuteater306Click Here to Email donuteater306Send a Private Message to donuteater306Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My 87 did the same thing. One the gas the rear of the car would swing one way. Off the gas the rear swung the other way. Especially noticeable when on the freeway. With my car, it was the rear inner and outer tie rods. I bought replacements from Rodney Dickman. No more problems.
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Report this Post06-08-2013 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gtoformulaClick Here to Email gtoformulaSend a Private Message to gtoformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You might just need an alignment. The rear toe in can be correct, but if the rear wheels aren't pointed forward the car will steer in the direction of the way they are pointed under acceleration. When you back off the throttle and weigh shifts to the front the car will straighten up. My car would go straight on both acceleration and deceleration, but would pull left and then right (on and then off the gas) after I replaced the rear struts.
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Report this Post09-08-2013 08:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ltlgt88Send a Private Message to ltlgt88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My 88 is doing the same thing on the highway, really want to know what it could be...replaced rear struts and springs and sway bar links last winter didn't help at all...someone one time told me it could be a ball joint too? could it be?

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Report this Post09-08-2013 08:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just FYI, torque steer is defined as torque from the drivetrain inducing a steering effect into the steering wheels. Since the drive wheels are separate from the steering wheels in the Fiero, it technically cannot experience torque steer. It can, however, experience torque-induced yaw (i.e. pulling to one side) if suspension components are worn, or if the wheel alignment is off. And as mentioned above, worn drivetrain mounts or cradle bushings can cause this, too.
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Report this Post10-29-2013 11:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ltlgt88Send a Private Message to ltlgt88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think it might be my rear hub bearing assembly, lifted the rear off the car and had small play in the rear driver side when i went to wiggle the tire? it was wiggling in all 4 directions, this would be the bearing right?

Can i just buy a whole new hub bearing assembly that is sealed and replace it without having to worry about packing the bearings end everything? like this one http://www.rockauto.com/cat...k=1288268&cc=1249208 . Any tips hints or tricks i should know about? or is there a walk through anywhere that someone can lead me too. Any recommendations on brand or where to get a good assembly?

Was thinking of sending my rear knuckles to RD at the same time for his Knuckle repair which also could be the cause, but if i am tearing the rear end that far apart might as well the knuckle and bearing assembly.

any thoughts?

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Report this Post10-30-2013 12:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ltlgt88:

I think it might be my rear hub bearing assembly, lifted the rear off the car and had small play in the rear driver side when i went to wiggle the tire? it was wiggling in all 4 directions, this would be the bearing right?

OE rear hub use Ball Bearing without any preload. Mean you can see play moving a whole wheel.
Front is same way, no preload.

Hub units are not make to be service. You replace the whole thing when bad.

See my Cave, Axle

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Report this Post10-30-2013 02:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ltlgt88Send a Private Message to ltlgt88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
so you are saying the play i am getting in the wheel since it is all around is the hub?
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Report this Post10-30-2013 07:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
OE rear hub use Ball Bearing without any preload.


Really? The rears are "ball bearings"? I thought there was a pair of roller bearings in those hubs. As for preload, there is none when you take the bearing out of the box, but once it's installed on the knuckle and the axle nut is torqued to 200 lbft, the bearing is preloaded.

 
quote
Originally posted by ltlgt88:
...so you are saying the play i am getting in the wheel since it is all around is the hub?.


There should be absolutely no play in the bearing once it's installed and torqued to specs. If there is, then the bearing is worn out. To guide you in how to remove the bearing assembly, read through this thread. www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum9/HTML/000004.html It's a thread about replacing the axle, so much of it you don't need to do, but the details are there to remove and replace the bearing assembly. (You don't need to separate the rear tie rod, nor the lower ball joint, for example)

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Report this Post10-30-2013 08:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Did a bit of research and found that at various times either ball bearings or tapered roller bearings were used, depending on the manufacturer. Here are pictures of both types, the first is from theogre and the second is from Will:





Regardless which type is used, there should be no play whatsoever once installed.
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Report this Post10-30-2013 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:
Really? The rears are "ball bearings"?

OE is BB.
Aftermarket (AM of rest of post) use rollers. They might have set preload at factory.

proof?
See:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/127848.html#p18 (You found it while I wrote this and updated that page.)
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...040223-2-038018.html Started on: 07-03-2003 That post is why I posted in other threads, OE uses BB.

Every OE I have has very, Very, small play when you yank on a whole wheel as a "test." Same as Front bearings. You can feel it but if you see the play, find what wrong... Bad bushing/bj/tie rods/etc. If they are good, get another hub.

often You can't feel/see the play on front at the rotors/hub but the wheel adds allot more lever action. Very often You can feel it by yank on a whole wheel as a "test."
just read any SM, 84-87 Front
 
quote
FRONT WHEEL BEARINGS
NOTICE: Tapered roller bearings are used on all series vehicles and they have a slightly loose feel when properly adjusted. A design feature of front wheel tapered roller bearings is that they must never be preloaded. Damage can result from preloading.
Source: Exact text from 87 FSM, page 3C-1


Many have/had dirt shield noise while turning? Sadly, Even NEW OE and AM hubs can do that w/ bent shields. I had this years ago. Very annoying...

I have a OE 200,000+ mile unit w/ same wheel play as OE 50,000 miles. 200,000+ is on my car now because Aftermarket unit went bad after <2 years. I only replace OE to fix dust shield noise in year 2K, Not realizing that some-one bent a shield. I save many old parts to write articles etc. Worse, I had to fix the dead AM one a night...
Dead AM unit? I still have that too after 10+ years... It's raining today so I updated w/ pictures to the same thread. (I only have good OE ones that I'm not taking them apart.)

When any type wheel bearings is bad... You will quickly find out. Race(s) and Bearing often quickly eat each other. Most bearings make noise or if very bad, have allot of play. That dead AM unit was making very loud click sound while driving w/ no play to mention. (Both sides was same w/ AM hubs.) To find, I had to feel, not hear, the click by rotate the wheel by hand. Pulling/pushing the wheel in any direction did nothing, right behave same as left. (Right was bad.)

To double check I had right part. I check after removing the wheel and axle.

OE ones can/will last... My OE hub shows no signs of dieing.
Many just replace them because they old and "everyone" on internet says "play is bad." Any Preload, or wrong preload, can be rapid death to many bearings, including BB and Rollers.

I trust used OE more that new AM units... Dieing AM units are now very common and Not just a Fiero problem.
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Report this Post10-30-2013 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Did you snug up the rear axle nuts to 200 ft. lbs. after replacing the axle?

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Report this Post10-30-2013 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by aaronkoch:
Did you snug up the rear axle nuts to 200 ft. lbs. after replacing the axle?

Sadly... Even SM has errors or is confusing... (Many GM TSB are changes to SM.)
Example, 87 SM re axle/hub nut...
Page 4D-2, Drive axle, Step 7 in Install list. "install washer and new hub nut and tighten to 250-285 Nm (183-208 lb.ft.)."
Page 3D-5, Rear Suspension... (short version)
New hub nut on axle shaft. Apply partial torque to new hub nut(approx. 100 N-rn) (74 Ib.ft.).
Install or Connect: Rotor. Caliper assembly. Wheel and tire.
Lower vehicle.
Tighten: Apply FINAL. torque at hub nut to 270 Nm (200 lb.ft.).

I went with page 4D-2 for final torque.
I have replaces axles etc with these specs. Only 1 AM hub went bad, no other work was done to it before it died.

Many people has problem w/ AM hub torque to 200lbft.
Not a Fiero problem... Torqued to spec on any car and has same failures.
The Sad and Real fact is AM hubs "Made in US" can still use Bearings made anywhere. "Made in US" just means x% of work is in US to meet US Customs rules.
One race w/ crap heat treat will means that bearing will fail.
Iffy lube job at factory will make them fail too.
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Report this Post10-30-2013 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DodgerunnerClick Here to visit Dodgerunner's HomePageClick Here to Email DodgerunnerSend a Private Message to DodgerunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How did you replace the hub. Did you just pull the bottom ball joint or did you pull the two strut bolts?
If you removed the strut bolts and did not realign you can get bad toe settings which can cause a feeling of Torque Steer.
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Report this Post10-31-2013 08:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ltlgt88Send a Private Message to ltlgt88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
haven't changed the hub yet but that is what I was considering to do next. I get no play on the passenger side at all but on the driver side I might get like a quarter inch play to a half an inch of play
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Report this Post10-31-2013 10:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That amount of play is extremely dangerous in this type of bearing. It will make the car's steering unpredictable, and the bearing will likely fail at any time, which would mean you could lose the wheel and or lose control of the car. It's not something you should drive until it is fixed.
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Report this Post11-01-2013 12:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ltlgt88:
I get no play on the passenger side at all but on the driver side I might get like a quarter inch play to a half an inch of play


D side has major issues. Do Not drive the car!

If hub bearing is bad... Can damage the axle and knuckle. Can cause brake problem. Bad bearing can/will make rotor to move "sideways" and force major pad clearance... Likely Causing a low pedal etc.

If Axle nut came loose... That will kill the hub and likely axle.
Correct nut w/ correct torque is very unlikely.
Wrong type nut can get loose even when use correct torque.
Right type See my Cave, Axle

 
quote
Originally posted by ltlgt88:
so you are saying the play i am getting in the wheel since it is all around is the hub?

Maybe but that amount of play is a Huge problem. The dead part(s) should be easy to find.
You have to check everything on affected side.

Note: in http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/126242.html#p17 I said "Front is same way, no preload." is 84-87 cars. Not sure about 88 front. 88 rear use same hubs as older cars.
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Report this Post11-01-2013 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KurtAKX:

My money is on a bad tie rod end



I'd have to second this.. torque steer is definitely something a front wheel drive car suffers from. It basically pulls your steering wheel HARD when you're flooring it on vehicles that have high horsepower to the front wheels.
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Report this Post11-01-2013 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If it were only a rear tie rod he would have play in the knuckle, not in the hub assembly as he's posted. Also, if it were the tie rod he would only have play in the plane of toe (steering axis) but he posted that the play is "all around the hub", making it a bearing issue.
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Report this Post04-23-2014 06:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ltlgt88Send a Private Message to ltlgt88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So changed the rear hubs..some improvement. Still pulling side to side over 2500 rpm when going on and of the gas...so I went under again to check the tightness of everything in the rear suspension, and check all bushings

then I thought the transmission mount could be bad causing the transmission to shift. Come to find out it wasn't the mount. 3 of the 4 transmission bolts were loose and one is missing!

Tightened the three dow for a quick drive seems the pulling to has gone away. Don't want to take it on the interstate with only 3 bolts , which is where I felt it the most.

ANYONE KNOW THE SIZE AND TYPE OF THE LOWER PASSENGER SIDE BOLT FOR THE LOWER TRANSMISSION MOUNT ON AN 88 GT 5 SPEED AND IS IT SOMETHING I CAN JUST PICK UP AT ACE, OR IS IT A SPECIALTY BOLT?
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Report this Post04-24-2014 09:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ltlgt88Send a Private Message to ltlgt88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
so i did some looking online and i have found the part number to the missing bolt 11516325 superseded by 11516327

But can anyone tell me the size length and type of bolt for those part numbers so i can just pick one up at a local hardware store?
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Report this Post04-24-2014 10:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Just FYI, torque steer is defined as torque from the drivetrain inducing a steering effect into the steering wheels. Since the drive wheels are separate from the steering wheels in the Fiero, it technically cannot experience torque steer. It can, however, experience torque-induced yaw (i.e. pulling to one side) if suspension components are worn, or if the wheel alignment is off. And as mentioned above, worn drivetrain mounts or cradle bushings can cause this, too.


I think you guys are picking nits... YAW is steering. If your rear of the car swings out and you go off the road what difference does it make if you call it torque steer or torque induced yaw? And there is no law that says only front wheels can steer. Many vehicles came from the factory with rear wheel steering. There was even a plan to build a rear steer Fiero.

My 88 had a bad case of this when I bought it. Turned out to just have some loose suspension parts.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 04-24-2014).]

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Csjag
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Report this Post04-25-2014 07:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Can't you take out one of the remaining bolts to the hardware store and have them match it?
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Report this Post04-25-2014 01:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1: I think you guys are picking nits... YAW is steering.

When a front-wheel-drive vehicle tries to steer the front wheels on its own when you apply/release the throttle, it's called "torque steer". And on many FWD vehicles, that is perfectly normal. But when a rear-wheel-drive vehicle tries to yaw left or right when you apply/release the throttle, it's called "something is wrong in the rear suspension". That is NOT normal, and should be addressed. They are two completely different things.
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Report this Post04-25-2014 11:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

When a front-wheel-drive vehicle tries to steer the front wheels on its own when you apply/release the throttle, it's called "torque steer". And on many FWD vehicles, that is perfectly normal. But when a rear-wheel-drive vehicle tries to yaw left or right when you apply/release the throttle, it's called "something is wrong in the rear suspension". That is NOT normal, and should be addressed. They are two completely different things.


I see ypur point but I disagree. The only difference is that front wheels are designed to turn so tourque steer is a common occurance. On a Fiero you should not get torque steer if everything is tight. But if your suspension is loose you will get tourque steer. Give it a different name if you like but the physics is identical.
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Report this Post04-26-2014 08:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_steering

Everyone is right. You may not want to call it torque steer, because of an issue in the suspension which results in the torque steer, but it is still a change in direction of the vehicle as a result of torque being applied to the drive wheels, in different amounts. Many things can cause it, and yes, it is most noticeable in FWD cars with unequal length axles and no LSD. It's generally much less apparent in the Fiero, which is a FWD drivetrain in the rear, however will happen more on the pre-88 cars, due to the suspension design; for the same reason bump steer is a problem in pre-88s.
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