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Normal Wobble? by Stainless1911
Started on: 10-29-2012 02:28 PM
Replies: 66 (1200 views)
Last post by: Stainless1911 on 08-26-2013 11:21 AM
Stainless1911
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Report this Post10-29-2012 02:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I finally got a chance to drive the Fiero on the Interstate, and I noticed that it can be a little squirrly. The suspension and cradle got all new poly, shocks/struts, ball joints, inner/outer tie rods, the works, everything. It's been aligned properly. Best way to describe it, is the car feels wobbly on the yaw axis. If it were an airplane, it would feel as though someone was wiggling the rudder back and forth. When you change lanes for example, it seems to yaw back and forth a bit. Gives the feeling that you wouldnt want to make an aggressive lane change, or you wouldnt want to swerve quickly to maybe avoid something in or entering the roadway.

Is this a Fiero thing, or have I missed something?

------------------
I have a 1987 Fiero, 4 cylinder 5 speed. With an 88 engine.

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Report this Post10-29-2012 02:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadMarkClick Here to Email MadMarkSend a Private Message to MadMarkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have an 88 Fiero GT and if the rear is not aligned right it will feel that way. As you go towards the centerline it wants to push away and then as you get your rear tire over the centerline and the top of the crown it will shift and pull you across the line. And every little crack and seal line in the road the rear tires want to follow too. So my fix is to get it aligned properly unless you have some other problem with the suspension. If you can find a mechanic to do this that will let you come in and see what the settings are it really helps to confirm how it is aligned.

I had it aligned one time and the shop just made it so that the front end didn't pull and never touched the rear end and then charged me $75. I was not too happy with that and I will never go back there again. I also had trouble with mine changing everytime shortly after getting it aligned. On the 88 there are two bolts that go through the upper A-arm and if they are worn on the heads or on the nuts they will not clamp well enough to keep the suspension aligned.
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Report this Post10-29-2012 03:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That is not normal, but not uncommon. Check for loose bearings and low tire pressure. Alignment is critical, and from what I have read Fiero owners get bad alignments all the time.
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post10-29-2012 04:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bearings seem ok. Tire pressure is at 40. I saw the printout, the specs were all green.

Maybe it just likes going 80, everytime I do, it starts wagging its tail :P
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Report this Post10-29-2012 04:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is definitely something wrong.
I regularly drive my 88 at speeds in excess of 80-100 mph at track events with no issues.
In fact the car is extremely stable through 110 mph.
Could be bushings, shocks. is it an 88? check the front shock towers.
Had a problem once where one was broken off and the shock was floating.
Alignment is critical as was mentioned.
Sub frame bolted in? rust at the rear connection bolts?
Steering rack mounted solid? you would feel that though?????
Keep checking, you will find something.
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Report this Post10-29-2012 04:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah, 88 are way different on highways.

Even though your allignment is in the "green" it seems like that is the culprit. It took them 4 tries to get mine safe. It still is not perfect.

I found that when I put my stock tires back on, it would seem to clear right up. My wide tires exaggerate the feeling of rear end sway. I plan on going with Rodney's aluminum cradle bushings, and held bump steer kit this winter.

Tony
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Report this Post10-29-2012 04:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for garage monsterSend a Private Message to garage monsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I didn't see this mentioned but to be sure.... You did get a 4 wheel alignment, correct? be sure your shop used the correct specs for an 88 Fiero. The first shopm I looked at for my 87 was going to use "generic" specs.Tthe second shop had the factory specs and was a previous Fiero owner.

87GT with 383 and 5 speed.
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Report this Post10-29-2012 05:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It it more noticeable when you get on an off the gas?
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Report this Post10-29-2012 05:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Don't forget to check the lower bolt hole on the knuckle that the two lateral links are attached to. It's a common problem for the hole in the knuckle to wear out oval and allow sloppiness in the long bolt that goes through it.
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post10-29-2012 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Its an 87. I did not notice a change on or off the gas. It was a 4 wheel alignment, a $461 alignment.
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-29-2012 01:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I affixed a video camera to the drivers side mirror to view the rear wheel, hoping to see what is causing this wobble. It did show the tire flexing somewhat, but I don't think the tires are causing all of the problem here. If you notice, the wheel itself seems to have this flex going on. The video really doesn't show the car trying to rotate on its axis as I had hoped, I'll change the bracket to see if I can get a better angle, but it likely won't show the wheel when I do. The video will be up in a few minutes.

[This message has been edited by Stainless1911 (edited 11-29-2012).]

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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-29-2012 02:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post11-29-2012 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for EnglishrafeClick Here to Email EnglishrafeSend a Private Message to EnglishrafeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Have you got adjustable coil-overs on the rear struts?
I ask this, because if the spring height is not exactly the same both sides, this can cause a "swirving" feel to the back - sometimes really dangerous at high speeds!

If just normal/stock springs, then it's probably just that the alignment is off, even though you paid an awful lot for the job!
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-29-2012 03:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
They are not the adjustable type of strut.
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Report this Post11-29-2012 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for EnglishrafeClick Here to Email EnglishrafeSend a Private Message to EnglishrafeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah, well get them to redo the alignment. And this time within the specs!
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-29-2012 03:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had the alignment redone at a different shop. It did improve the situation. I will be uploading another video in a couple minutes that shows the severity of the wobble.
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-29-2012 03:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Stainless1911

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Video here: Shows the excessive wobble from a better angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...ZlA&feature=youtu.be
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Report this Post11-29-2012 03:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for revinSend a Private Message to revinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wonder if the belts inside the tire have seperated. swap out the tire(s)
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-29-2012 04:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Possibly, they were used tires. My biggest problem is that I dont have any money right now, and this is not only my daily driver, but my winter car, and snow is approaching fast.
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Report this Post11-29-2012 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LZeppelin513Click Here to Email LZeppelin513Send a Private Message to LZeppelin513Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Could be your tires. I had some old tires on my 87. Like yours, everything suspension was new but at high speeds it would wobble just like u describe. I finally got new tires and it was night and day difference.
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Report this Post11-29-2012 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for marshall12285Send a Private Message to marshall12285Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also checks your upper control arm mounts up front. Take the tire off, jack the suspension up to keep it in the position it would be in driving down the road and see if you can wobble it back and forth. The tube that bolt runs through is only pinched down/tight on the bolt on the ends and tends to oval out over time allowing the control arm to wobble slightly. It won't appear to be much but it only takes a tiny bit of movement to feel it driving. I've also had bolts that were thinned by rust and allowed bushings to move excessively. Alignments are key. I've been to 3 shops and there always seems to be something wrong when I get it back or something they totally missed in their "thorough" inspections.
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-29-2012 10:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I re did the poly up front as well, could this still be an issue?
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Report this Post11-29-2012 11:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALJRClick Here to Email ALJRSend a Private Message to ALJREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Pre 88 right? Did you replace your cradle bushing also, or are they stock/old rubber ones? Excessive movement from the cradle could cause the ass-end to wander like that...

Can you get a buddy to follow behind and see if the car is tracking straight?

Have you tried rotating the tires to see if that helps? Are the tires uni-directional AND installed on the car facing the proper direction?

You paid another shop to realigne the car? Why not take it back to the shop that did it the first time and have them recheck it?

When I had my 88 dun, I had to bring it back a cauple days later (after I had a chance to get it out on the highway) because mine felt/drove like yours in that second video; very sketchy at speed. The shop said I must have hit a pot-hole or something that threw it back out (first print-out showed everything was in-spec); that was of BS. I told the manager to take it on the highway and tell me thats how its supposed to be; he came back and re-did it for free... If you ask me, they didn't torque something properlly the first time and it drifted out of spec.

You paid good money to have it aligned; make them do it right or give you your money back!

 
quote
Originally posted by Stainless1911:

I re did the poly up front as well, could this still be an issue?


Did you do this before or after it was aligned? I hope before...

[This message has been edited by ALJR (edited 11-29-2012).]

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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-29-2012 11:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
87 I did all the poly before. Everything, a complete front and rear kit, and the cradle. I'll rotate the tires tomorrow, good thought.

[This message has been edited by Stainless1911 (edited 11-29-2012).]

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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-29-2012 11:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Stainless1911

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I never took it back to the first shop because the trust is gone. I dont trust him to do it right the second time.
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Report this Post11-30-2012 06:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm beginning to back pedal on my initial feelings regarding alignment costs in favor of paying more than average. "Green is good", but not perfect, or necessarily sufficient. I spent enough time around alignment techs to know you have to find someone that takes enough pride in their work to do it right and not stop turning the wrench and start tightening the jam nuts on green. Wiggling and wobbling after the repairs you mentioned = loose parts or more likely in your case ineffective alignment specs within the range.

If you think it's bad now, wait until you drive it on a wet road, it'll scare you. When my car (86) did this I believe it was setting the rear to slightly toed in and slightly negative camber. You need a spec sheet printout with actual numbers so that you can see exact values as to where the specs are after the alignment.
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-30-2012 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is what scares me. I bought the car specifically for Michigan winters.
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-30-2012 11:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Stainless1911

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I had Davison Automotive line it up. They know Fieros, so I dont really think its alignment. They build 3800 swaps, and it is my understanding that one of the fastest fieros gets its service done there.
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Report this Post11-30-2012 12:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Stainless1911:

I had Davison Automotive line it up. They know Fieros, so I dont really think its alignment. They build 3800 swaps, and it is my understanding that one of the fastest fieros gets its service done there.


You may want ask the shop what the issue is. It may cost you some money, but they probably have more experience with this sort of thing happening and can look at specific items.

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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-30-2012 12:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Looks like I'll have to.

Im going to check the upper control arms today.
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Report this Post11-30-2012 12:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Stainless1911:
Its an 87. I did not notice a change on or off the gas. It was a 4 wheel alignment, a $461 alignment.

Worn Cradle bushings will cause this.
See my Cave, Bushings

But...
"87 I did all the poly before. Everything, a complete front and rear kit, and the cradle. "
Check all bolts etc... Maybe something loose.
Check Rubber "Top Hat" bushings.

Check steering rack and rear tie rods.
Steering rack uses rubber bushings and can rot the rack cause by road salt etc.
Bad rack bushing.
Etc.
But note, Bad or missing steering buffer won't cause most steering problems.

"Tire pressure is at 40."
1. check tire label...
Do Not go over pressure listed on tire. This is Max Cold Inflation.
Do Not use at "working" pressure.
2. Fiero call for 30 PSIG. 1-2 PSI over as max.
3. Get a good gauge.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

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Report this Post11-30-2012 01:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weaselbeakClick Here to Email weaselbeakSend a Private Message to weaselbeakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:


You may want ask the shop what the issue is. It may cost you some money, but they probably have more experience with this sort of thing happening and can look at specific items.


If I read right, they got him for 461 bucks already. They should make it right I don't care how many trips it takes. My alignment cost me 80 dollars.

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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-30-2012 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To be absolutely clear, Davison charged me only 60. It was a shop in Waterford, Gerrys Auto, that got me for 461.
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-30-2012 03:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Stainless1911

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Would a rear sway bar help, or is that a band-aid fix?
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Stainless1911
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Stainless1911

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What are Top Hat bushings? The R. strut mounts??? Those were changed with the struts.
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Report this Post11-30-2012 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
could something be binding and not allowing for smooth movement?
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-30-2012 03:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No, everything is moving the way it ought. Im just puzzled at what to try first. Im not in a position to trow money at this car. I really wish I could bolt on a set of tires and drive it down the road for 5 minutes. I just dont know anyone who would do that. It would help narrow the possibilities though.
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Report this Post11-30-2012 03:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for revinSend a Private Message to revinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
spare?
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Stainless1911
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Report this Post11-30-2012 03:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stainless1911Click Here to Email Stainless1911Send a Private Message to Stainless1911Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dont have one.
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Capt Fiero
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Report this Post11-30-2012 04:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My Vote is rear toe link rods or rear wheel bearings.

I would start looking for a parts car so you have lots of parts to swap out and test with.

Our local Fiero club usually does one a year, as a club we get together and buy an entire car that is not worth putting back to roadworthy status everyone takes what they need and the rest goes into the club storage to be sold or loaned out for testing purposes.
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