So, i just finished replaceing calipers, rotors and pads all around... wondering if im going to need to bleed brakes? had people tell me both yes and no... so am i!? thanks
Yep. I just did mine. I used the hand vacuum pump to start, then went back around all fours the old fashioned way because I dont trust the pumps. They are good enough to get things started but because I can still see bubbles, they aren't done. Once I dont see any bubbles, then and only then will I say the brakes have been bled.
Originally posted by Patrick: [EDIT] Remember to use the proper sequence (which is Fiero specific) - LR RR RF LF
Why? I was always taught that you start farthest away and work your way in. The instructions to the pump says the opposite! It says to start closest and work your way out.
I was always taught that you start farthest away and work your way in. The instructions to the pump says the opposite! It says to start closest and work your way out.
I was also taught to start with the furthest caliper from the master when bleeding and to work your way closer (as you were taught). So, what are you going to follow... how you were taught or what the directions from some cheap pump tells you?
Marvin, more words of wisdom please!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-18-2012).]
Go ahead ... splurge and buy a whole quart of DOT3/4 brake fluid. That is more than enough to bleed and flush an entire system. Don't be tempted to use some old fluid that has been sitting on the shelf, opened, for several years. Brake fluid is hygroscopic; it readily absorbs moisture from the air.
As for the sequence: LR, RR, RF, LF is correct. The LR caliper is the farthest away due to the brake line being ran down the passenger side to the rear brakes. This means that the driver's side caliper is the farthest from the master cylinder. Next farthest would be the RR, then the RF and lastly, the LF with the shortest run of piping to the master cylinder. You may now resume your normally scheduled program...
------------------ John 1955 Chevrolet 210 Sedan (Shopping list in progress) 1988 SE seized duke...next engine...1996 LQ1 found ~Future 1990 Fiero Clone? 1988 T-Top Coupe rocking 41 MPG! 1986 SE Project Mayhem 1999 F350 Crew Dually ~17mpg city 22 hwy Wife's 2001 Saturn SL1 51MPG high score
Go ahead ... splurge and buy a whole quart of DOT3/4 brake fluid. That is more than enough to bleed and flush an entire system. Don't be tempted to use some old fluid that has been sitting on the shelf, opened, for several years. Brake fluid is hygroscopic; it readily absorbs moisture from the air.
Yes, don't use old brake fluid...I found this out the hard way, when I was back in high school (about 50-years ago...lol.) This is why I always buy small bottles, so I don't have allot sitting on the shelf and end up throwing it out. After changing calipers, you usually end up using the whole small bottle, and since you don't want to store it, use it all up to bleed them more, to get all the bubbles out as much as possible. just make sure you refill your reservoir after about three bleeds. Remember fluid is cheep, but your brakes may save your life!
make sure your helper and you communicate or you will end up starting all over again. Have him pump it up and hold it with good pressure. Let him know that when you open the bleeder valve that his foot will go all the way to the floor and tell him to hold it there, until you close the bleeder valve. Tell him to pump it up again and hold it, after you close the valve. Repeat this as many times as necessary until there is absolutely no more bubbles for 3-more bleeds. If your fluid is dirty...bleed it all out until clear! I attach a clear surgical hose to the valve and run it in a bottle. The bottle will also tell you how much fluid has been drained from the reservoir, and when to refill your reservoir. I also leave the box end wrench on the valve until I'm done...makes it easier. You only need to open it about a quarter turn! When you're all done, you should have lots more peddle! Whenever you bleed...bleed them all to make sure all bubbles are gone an your fluid is clean. Hint...Whenever you refill the reservoir, make sure the rubber diaphragm is on evenly and your cap is back on tight, or you will be starting all over again and bleeding the whole system to get the air out that you let into the reservoir!
Another hint: Make sure you don't get any fluid on your paint our it will leave a permanent mark where it ate the paint. Be very careful when you are refilling your reservoir, not to spill it! Keep an old towel handy to wipe up any fast, that might spill.
[This message has been edited by hypo327 (edited 01-04-2013).]
Any time a connection is opened in a brake system, the system must then be bled, no exceptions. By far the easiest way to bleed brakes is with a vacuum brake bleeder. These run on compressed air & suck the fluid out through the bleeder fittings, so only one person is required. Just make sure to check & fill the master cylinder often when using a vacuum bleeder...they can empty it fast. Many auto parts stores lend or rent specialty tools like this, if you have a source of compressed air.
Make it a one-man job and pretty painless. The master cylinder on old GM cars is kind of a hassle with this unit because it's tough to get a seal on the master cylinder cover. I could never get it to work right with my T/A, even using the expensive metal (instead of plastic) adapter. I read somewhere that instead of using their silly chains to hold the thing on, use a massive c-clamp. I tried that method on my Falcon and it worked *perfectly* - and I had to use it multiple times as I was redoing all the brake lines and found a couple leaks. Never had any issues. As soon as my new calipers come in, I'll try it on the Fiero too.
Edit: I must have read the bit about the c-clamp on their own site -
We got the following tip from users that work on their classic Corvettes. We like the tip so much we're passing it on to you. Instead of using the chains cut a piece of 2x4 or some metal bar stock in the same length as the 1105 adapter. Lay the 2x4 or bar stock onto the top of the adapter lengthwise and then use a c-clamp to hold the adpater in place. It works great and is much faster to use than the chains. In 2011 we started to make the 1105 out of cast aluminum. On the newer 1105 you will not need to use a 2x4 or bar stock, just use a c-clamp.
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-04-2013).]
I hooked up my Motive to the Fiero today, and pretty much just made a mess. I have a Blazer master cylinder, and the Motive "American" adapter was just not quite big enough to fit over the reservoir. After a few seconds, the seal failed and blew ATE Super Blue all over the place. DOH.
There is a 3rd party that sells an aluminum adapter I used to use with my Trans Am, and it worked great on the bigger master cylinder. If you have the original MC, you won't need it. If you don't, you will.
I can't remember where I got that thing, but I'll dig it up and post a link.
The clutch master cylinder reservoir uses the same threads as most European cars, so that was easy.
Aside from the mess I made, the Motive bleeder worked perfectly. Bleed all four corners and the clutch in less than an hour.
I've tried a few different methods to bleeding the system, and found that gravity bleeding by far worked the best. Wish I could get the $70 back for the Craftsman brake bleeder I bought. Good Luck!
Guys, sick of a soft pedal after gravity, vacuum and pedal bleeding the brakes on my Formula. So I'm looking at a pressure bleed next. I saw this Motive kit and I believe it will work on our cars. Take a look at it and give your thoughts...... http://www.speedwaymotors.c...Cylinders,33861.html
I use an H-Frt vacuum can . One port requires air pressure ( 20 psi in), the other port produces vacuum . Hook the vacuum port to a plastic brake bottle. The brake bottle has two spouts. One to the bleed nipple, the other to the vacuum input. When the plastic bottle fills 3/4, dump it. I run about 2 small bottles of brake fluid thru. You need an air compressor and a regulator turned down to around 20 psi. Kinda noisy and not the fastest. Rock hard pedal. One man operation. Brake pedal is not touched.
[This message has been edited by hobbywrench (edited 05-29-2013).]
When I bleed my brakes or clutch, I remove the bleeder screw, coat it with copper anti-seze, and reinstall it. The anti-seze keeps it clean so I can remove it next time, and seals the threads from leaking air. I slip a clear tube over the nipple of the bleeder screw and put the other end of the tube in a jar to the bottom of the jar. As I bleed the brakes, the air goes out the tube, but when you release the pedal, only fluid gets sucked back in. I also keep a close watch on the reservoir, as it has to stay full. After bleeding, I tighten the bleeder with an open end wrench, take off the tube and torque the bleeder with a six point socket. If I am flushing the system, you can watch the fluid as it leaves, and you might get a glimpse of water that gets trapped in the system. I also save the old fluid, it makes a great penetrating oil.
Assuming the 1105 covers the stock master cylinder reservoir (which I think it will, but you'll need to measure as I don't have one) it'll be fine. Otherwise, you need the 1115. *Seriously* go buy a big c-clamp and 6" of square tube stock from wherever and use that to cinch it to the reservoir. The chains and hooks they provide are worthless. A c-clamp without the tube stock won't seal properly. Sucks to spend an extra $10 to make this work, but it simply won't work right without the extra parts IME. I have bled *dozens* of cars using my Motive bleeder. In fact, I'm on my second pump as the one I bought in 2001 died in '08 or '09. I use the crap out of my Motive!
Remember that you only need 5-10psi in the can to bleed brakes. More than that and you can blow out seals. I usually start at 8psi and pump it back up at 4-5psi. Brakes on the Fiero are still great.
If air got in the MC because tank went dry then you can bleed them until hell freezes and never get air out.
Can try to jack up rear of car til MC is level then bleed as normal. Sometimes works... Often need to Bench Bleed the MC, reinstall MC, then bleed as normal.
This assumes you didn't "pedal bleed" the system and killed the MC... If you did that then you need a new MC.
Edit: Low pedal or soft/spongy pedal... Terms are confusing but not interchangeable. Bleeding can fix soft/spongy pedal. Low pedal is normal brakes but need more pedal travel. Low pedal is often cause by too much pad clearance, often Fiero rear pad w/ caliper piston problems. Rebuilt caliper often use Rebuild Pistons. Rear piston was design as one shot use then junk them when bad.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Got tired of working on it and took her to a brake shop. They say its the new rear drivers caliper which I replaced because of a leak. Tech said there's a gap between the piston and the pad and closing the gap causes the peddle to be spongy. In other words, i have to push the peddle pretty far to close the gap enough for the caliper to have effect. Says its the parking brake mech causing the piston to not work properly. You guys have given great advice, any experience with this issue? Is this why guys go with front calipers on the rear?
FIXED!!!!! Got to give a shout-out to my friends at Ashley's Tire and Brake in Lexington KY. I now have a great peddle, stops like a charm. They say to use the parking brake every time I park her and keep my fingers crossed that the problem doesn't come back. Good for now!
If you replace the calipers one at a time and let them gravity bleed when installing, no more bleeding will be needed after the install is complete. That might have been the "No" answer. I do it all the time. Even replace hoses and not done more then let the fluid run through, replace on the caliper, let the fluid run out, tighten bleed screw, done. Just don't let the master cylinder suck air.
And I have never had to bleed the brakes on an occasional basis. Not sure where that info comes from.
Has anyone tried the pressure bleeding method of pushing the fluid back up into the master cylinder? I just read an article on this and they say it is great as long as the car does not have an ABS system.
It makes sense to me in that it is pushing the fluid uphill and dragging the air with it to the master cylinder as well. This is done at each wheel it seems and works backward from the gravity method.. Here is ad on ebay that I caught my attention: http://www.ebay.com/itm/One...-3500-/281836349094. I am not sure of the size of the brake bleeder though..
Originally posted by mrstan: Has anyone tried the pressure bleeding method of pushing the fluid back up into the master cylinder? I just read an article on this and they say it is great as long as the car does not have an ABS system.
It makes sense to me in that it is pushing the fluid uphill and dragging the air with it to the master cylinder as well. This is done at each wheel it seems and works backward from the gravity method.. Here is ad on ebay that I caught my attention: http://www.ebay.com/itm/One...-3500-/281836349094. I am not sure of the size of the brake bleeder though..
Any thoughts?
Bad idea for non-ABS too.
All the crap in the lines and calipers goes thru combi valve and MC bore. Air trap in the MC is a big problem.
MC bore will act as a wide river or lake and allow the dirt etc to sink to bottom. GM Quick Take-up MC used in Fiero won't like this either. QT valve has very small parts. Combi valve has small holes to plug and part to stick.
If you have a caliper stick because is full of dirt is relatively easy to clean out then get a new seal kit. (Let's ignoring rear piston problems for Fiero and some others for this.)
I've been using Gravity bleeding for decades... A bit slow but never have problems.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I just changed all the calipers on my 88. I used a hand pump vacuum bleeder with standard bleeder screws to get most of the air out of the calipers and lines. I installed a speed bleeder in each caliper after the vacuum bleed.
After all the calipers had speed bleeders I bled each caliper again with the speed bleeder until all the air was out. Very easy to do and brakes are great.
I believe that pressure bleeding works great BUT if you use a pressure bleeder (with the tank reservoir) getting a seal on the plastic MC tank with the flat plate (with the rubber surface) provided is very hard to achieve. That plate works great on MC's with metal tanks but not the Fiero plastic tank. The Mightyvac suction bleeder seems to work the best but you must use heavy grease on the bleeder screws to insure that air doesn't get past them. Like Theocre said never let the tank go dry and use fresh fluid.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I've tried a few different methods to bleeding the system, and found that gravity bleeding by far worked the best. Wish I could get the $70 back for the Craftsman brake bleeder I bought. Good Luck!
Agree!! I've bled a lot of brake systems, this method works best, just requires a little patience.
I've had good luck with the Russell speed bleeders. They are basically one way check valve bleeder screws. Just install them back them out 1/2 turn to open them, pump the brake 4 or 5 times then tighten them closed.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
As for the sequence: LR, RR, RF, LF is correct. The LR caliper is the farthest away due to the brake line being ran down the passenger side to the rear brakes. This means that the driver's side caliper is the farthest from the master cylinder. Next farthest would be the RR, then the RF and lastly, the LF with the shortest run of piping to the master cylinder. You may now resume your normally scheduled program...
quote
Remember to use the proper sequence (which is Fiero specific) - LR RR RF LF
I was always taught on other cars that the sequence was RR, LR, RF, LF, because the farthest caliper or cylinder (presumably because the longest line should be bled first). I know the longest line on the Fiero is to the LR. But the '88 FSM lists the usual RR, LR, RF, LF. Got me to thinking (uh-oh!) I can see where you would want to bleed the rears and then the fronts, but does it really matter which rear (or which front) you do first? Presumably you're purging all air from each line anyway. I used the usual sequence and everything seems just fine.
My money is on the book being wrong, wouldn't be the first time (see 86-87 GT & 88 GT rear wheels being 30mm offset and not 35mm as the book states).
Yes most cars the RR is the furthest from MC, but the Fiero LR being farthest away from MC, but I think you're splitting hairs.
PS: What I find is the #1 thing never mentioned in brake bleed threads, especially when it comes to older cars, is you should tape a hockey puck or something similar to the floor below the brake pedal, so that when you are bleeding the pedal doesn't go all the way to the floor, because that cylinder the in MC bore and its seals are used to traveling a certain distance in the bore for many years, and if you max it out while bleeding you can run the seals into murky area where the seals don't normally travel, and while this adds a little more time to your bleed procedure it can prevent ruining a MC.
I use the crap out of my Motive! 
