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F23 swap turbo 3800 by Justinbart
Started on: 03-22-2012 08:50 PM
Replies: 180 (10511 views)
Last post by: KissMySSFiero on 03-27-2018 02:22 PM
Justinbart
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Report this Post03-22-2012 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Givivng up on the 'ole 282 getrag. I'm most likely going junk yard shopping tomorrow. In the fall the junkyard I always goes to had the caviler f23 I needed and it looks like they have the cobalt trans(economy package 3.63:1 FDR is RPO F) Hopefully I can get a package deal for around $450. I've pretty much decided that I wont be happy with the cavi f23 ratios so i'm going to do the hybrid setup. I remember someone doing it before, anyone have a link to that?

Some helpful threads
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/087296.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/087609.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/083654-8.html
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[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 03-27-2012).]

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Report this Post03-23-2012 05:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/083654-8.html

closest I could be bothered to find.
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Report this Post03-23-2012 02:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well they ended up getting me for $500. $200 for the cavi and $300 for the cobalt(FY1). I have to wait till tomorrow to pick the cavi trans and then I'll take some pictures and begin the tear down soon.

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Will
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Report this Post03-23-2012 02:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Blow up the 282?
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Report this Post03-23-2012 03:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Blow up the 282?


I'm not sure. I described what was wrong in my "turbo" build thread. Oil is just pouring out of the bell housing. Could just be the input shaft seal but I'm leaning towards a crack somewhere.

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Report this Post03-23-2012 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gtxbulletSend a Private Message to gtxbulletEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:


I'm not sure. I described what was wrong in my "turbo" build thread. Oil is just pouring out of the bell housing. Could just be the input shaft seal but I'm leaning towards a crack somewhere.



there is also a black plastic plug in the bell housing.
but probably a crack. it happens. be sure to post pictures of the damage so others will know what to look out for.

best of luck on the hybrid swap!!!
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Report this Post03-23-2012 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Careful with 4th gear....
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Report this Post03-23-2012 08:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

Careful with 4th gear....


what do you mean?

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Report this Post03-23-2012 09:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You have more power than anyone else, that drives their car to its limits, that will have a F23 (that I know of). It would suck for you to go thru all this work and have a trans failure shortly after install. From the personal experiences I have with the F23 running at high power levels, 4th gear seems to be the weakest link.
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Report this Post03-23-2012 10:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Where's the PICs.

600+HP and Drag Racing will tear up all kinds of trans 4 shizle, especialy with that pot hole track you like to run @.
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Report this Post03-23-2012 10:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
hmmm, I was thinking about doing some valve train upgrades while the cradle was pulled. Going to need to top out over 140 in 4th gear some how...

Pics will probably start to come early next week when I start working on it.

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Report this Post03-24-2012 04:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A little note about the Getrag 282, this is likely the issue you are having.

The 282's output shaft's thrust loading is retained and controlled by a large hollow 12 Point socket head cap screw. (12 MM hex fits) If this screw cracks, the thrust loading from the output shaft then smacks the bell housing side roller bearings into the wall of the bell housing. The case then cracks and leaks from the bell housing, the bearings could potentially be liberated in a catastrophic manner. This is a known Getrag 282 problem in higher power applications. This failure, even if in its early stages can be checked by removing the steel cover plate from the transmission and checking the two large hollow 12 Point socket head cap screws for failures. (The head popping off)

To sum up: The output shaft thrust loads towards the bell housing on acceleration, so once the retaining screw goes, it's free to start hammering away at the bell housing, and higher HP increases the likeliness of failure.
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Report this Post03-24-2012 06:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

A little note about the Getrag 282, this is likely the issue you are having.

The 282's output shaft's thrust loading is retained and controlled by a large hollow 12 Point socket head cap screw. (12 MM hex fits) If this screw cracks, the thrust loading from the output shaft then smacks the bell housing side roller bearings into the wall of the bell housing. The case then cracks and leaks from the bell housing, the bearings could potentially be liberated in a catastrophic manner. This is a known Getrag 282 problem in higher power applications. This failure, even if in its early stages can be checked by removing the steel cover plate from the transmission and checking the two large hollow 12 Point socket head cap screws for failures. (The head popping off)

To sum up: The output shaft thrust loads towards the bell housing on acceleration, so once the retaining screw goes, it's free to start hammering away at the bell housing, and higher HP increases the likeliness of failure.


I think the last 282 transmission failures that Californiakid and Matt Hawkins had were caused by this, and it was my first thoughts on this failure as well.
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Report this Post03-24-2012 08:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

A little note about the Getrag 282, this is likely the issue you are having.

The 282's output shaft's thrust loading is retained and controlled by a large hollow 12 Point socket head cap screw. (12 MM hex fits) If this screw cracks, the thrust loading from the output shaft then smacks the bell housing side roller bearings into the wall of the bell housing. The case then cracks and leaks from the bell housing, the bearings could potentially be liberated in a catastrophic manner. This is a known Getrag 282 problem in higher power applications. This failure, even if in its early stages can be checked by removing the steel cover plate from the transmission and checking the two large hollow 12 Point socket head cap screws for failures. (The head popping off)

To sum up: The output shaft thrust loads towards the bell housing on acceleration, so once the retaining screw goes, it's free to start hammering away at the bell housing, and higher HP increases the likeliness of failure.


 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I think the last 282 transmission failures that Californiakid and Matt Hawkins had were caused by this, and it was my first thoughts on this failure as well.


I'm surprised you buy this, Guru.

This is completely backwards.
The thrust loading from the final drive mesh pushes the *DIFFERENTIAL* to the *right* and the output shaft to the *left*. IE, it pushes the output shaft toward the steel end plate and AWAY from the bellhousing.

What does happen is that the differential can get too much axial loading and pop the right diff bearing boss out of the case. That's been seen on multiple failures.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-24-2012).]

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Report this Post03-24-2012 11:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
teaser pic

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Report this Post03-25-2012 08:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I'm surprised you buy this, Guru.

This is completely backwards.
The thrust loading from the final drive mesh pushes the *DIFFERENTIAL* to the *right* and the output shaft to the *left*. IE, it pushes the output shaft toward the steel end plate and AWAY from the bellhousing.

What does happen is that the differential can get too much axial loading and pop the right diff bearing boss out of the case. That's been seen on multiple failures.



I read it a little to fast and only focused on the bellhousing side bearing popping out - which both california kid and Matt Hawkins have shown. I do thing think that there is more to it than worn differential bearings though, Matt's last failure was on a low mileage rebuild and shouldn't have had excessive wear in the differential bearings.
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Report this Post03-26-2012 07:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post








Inside the Cobalt F23 FY1








Cavalier F23 3.94





Cobalt F23 FY1







Difference in the diffs



The F23 is much easier to split than the 282.

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[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 03-26-2012).]

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Report this Post03-26-2012 09:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are you swapping covers or internals?
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Report this Post03-26-2012 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just swapping the bell housing part on the cobalt trans.

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Report this Post03-26-2012 10:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Do you see anything that would lead you believe the cobalt case would be stronger or easier to mount than the cavalier case?
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Report this Post03-26-2012 10:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

Do you see anything that would lead you believe the cobalt case would be stronger or easier to mount than the cavalier case?


No, not really...

Do you know who this is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOLDSoEKlM0

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Report this Post03-27-2012 08:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It looks like its going to be much harder this way to make a front trans mount. I'm going to have to get creative...
Here they are flip flopped. I am using the one on the left.


So what is the trick to adapt in the clutch hydraulics? Can I just clamp something on there? There was a piece of plastic line on there before. Also, I swapped the htob's around since I figured the cobalt one was newer and less miles. It sticks out a little further, see any problem with that?

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[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 03-27-2012).]

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Report this Post03-27-2012 09:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I can't tell exactly but it might be the guy that bought all my turbo stuff, I haven't been in contact to know if he got it all installed and running. As far as the hydraulics, remove that metal fitting and buy the adapter from thelin.
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Report this Post03-27-2012 09:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

It looks like its going to be much harder this way to make a front trans mount. I'm going to have to get creative...
Here they are flip flopped. I am using the one on the left.


So what is the trick to adapt in the clutch hydraulics? Can I just clamp something on there? There was a piece of plastic line on there before. Also, I swapped the htob's around since I figured the cobalt one was newer and less miles. It sticks out a little further, see any problem with that?


Awesome build thread!

Looking to do the same eventually....


How difficult was it to swap bellhousing?
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Report this Post03-28-2012 01:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry I missed this thread till now. VERY nice stuff, I love the pictures. I didn't know that FY1 bellhousing doesn't have the extra mounting bosses in the front, it must be from earlier cobalts or something. Sorry about that, that really does make things difficult. But notice how much wider those gears are compared to the 282? A large factor of strength of a gear comes from it's width.
I do have a few questions though.
1. Did you notice any differences in either transmission other then bellhousing and differential ratio? Anything with the internal/external shift linkages? All the gears themselves should be the same, besides the economy FD ratio. I honestly thought it would be a bigger visual difference but now that I think about it, maybe not.
2. Can you explain or point me to a thread or post on how to split the case? Obviously you need to remove all the bolts around the edges and in the bellhousing, and the shift lever assembly I'm guessing, what else?

And I can't see why you can't use that port, but I personally just bought the adapter and installed it, and that was done.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-28-2012).]

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Report this Post03-28-2012 01:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
These are the directions to remove the case, provided by "L67".
This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.
It is really simple. You just need to remove the black cap inside the bell housing, Pull out a plastic spacer and remove the allen head bolt that screws into one of the shafts. You'll need a special tool to hold the input shaft while you remove that bolt(also needs to be in gear). I took an old clutch disk and welded a rod to it as shown in a picture above. Then you need to remove all the bolts and it comes right apart. No need to remove anything else like the instructions say.

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Report this Post03-28-2012 01:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wow, that simple? Awesome, good to know, thanks.

I'm now jealous of that FY1 gearing....oh well. Didn't require me to buy two transmissions and do all the switching around. And I got a front mount location.

Actually, you could technically take the FY1 differential and output shaft and put them into the 3.94 case, that way you get the bosses for the front mount. That would be easier IMO then trying to build some crazy front mount.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-28-2012).]

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Report this Post03-28-2012 01:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroFiendSend a Private Message to FieroFiendEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interested to see how you like the economy cobalt F23 when your done, my 3800sc with the cav f23 is shorter then I'd like and its not making anywhere near the power yours is. Ive wanted to pick up the economy trans for a while but until I can break my cav F23 I just dont feel like bothering. As much as I'd like the excuse and considering the abuse I put mine through it doesnt seem like its going to break anytime soon
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Report this Post03-28-2012 01:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hopefully I'll get the same results as far as longevity is concerned. It defiantly looks like it will be a great improvement over the 282.

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Report this Post03-29-2012 12:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

It looks like its going to be much harder this way to make a front trans mount. I'm going to have to get creative...
Here they are flip flopped. I am using the one on the left.





wow, you will have to get pretty creative there, your best bet will probably be to come off the bellhousing with a mount there.how about putting the cobalt goods in the cavalier case?

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Report this Post03-30-2012 06:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I read it a little to fast and only focused on the bellhousing side bearing popping out - which both california kid and Matt Hawkins have shown. I do thing think that there is more to it than worn differential bearings though, Matt's last failure was on a low mileage rebuild and shouldn't have had excessive wear in the differential bearings.


Wear isn't the potential failure point. The potential failure point is the strength of the boss that holds the right side diff bearing to withstand the axial load from the diff mesh.

Notice that the F23 case is tremendously reinforced in that area compared to the 282 case.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-30-2012).]

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Report this Post03-30-2012 09:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Wear isn't the potential failure point. The potential failure point is the strength of the boss that holds the right side diff bearing to withstand the axial load from the diff mesh.

Notice that the F23 case is tremendously reinforced in that area compared to the 282 case.



Wear in the differential bearings changes the gear mesh between the output shaft and differential gear and can spike the side load (pushing the shaft forward or towards the input shaft) that this bearing support must resist. Historically, these failures have generally been attributed to worn differential bearings (in addition to fragged spider gear debris), but once a low mileage rebuild had the same failure, I agree there is more to it than just bearing wear.
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Report this Post03-30-2012 08:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There's radial load, not axial load.

The majority of the failures of which I've seen pictures have been of the right side diff bearing boss coming out of the case.

The output shaft inner bearing boss can be broken also, but that is *RADIAL* load and has nothing to do with axial load on the output shaft, or the fastener that retains the output shaft in the outer bearing.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-30-2012).]

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Report this Post03-30-2012 10:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All I know is that the 282 is now an old design that can't take all that much power. F23 is the way to go.

Or the F40 if you really want those 6 speeds.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-30-2012).]

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Report this Post04-02-2012 07:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The Muncie rock crusher is an old design, but it can take plenty of power. Being old has nothing to do with it.

As I mentioned above, the primary failure mode I've seen for the 282 is the right diff bearing being pushed out of the case. The F23 case is significantly reinforced against that failure mode.

Also, the "intermediate layshaft" internal layout spreads out the radial and axial loads from the meshes.
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Report this Post04-10-2012 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was able to get back to work on the swap since it was too cold to golf

The failure to the getrag was what I had expected.



I tapped mounting holes on the transmission with a M10x1.5 tap and a 21/64 drill bit. I attempted to mate the trans to the engine but it was a no-go. The input shaft is hitting the crank of the 3800. The Cobalt trans' input shaft must be longer than the caviler. I compared the hybrid trans with the Fiero 282 Getrag and they both stick out the same length. The fiero trans input shaft is smaller on the end and must go inside the crank a bit.

So how do you guys think I should fix this?
I could either drill the end of the crank out bigger with a drill bit (least favorite option).
I could grind down the end up the input shaft to match the Fiero input shaft or possibly just cut off enough for it to mate up.



Mattwa, (or anyone else)what size gap do you have from the bell housing flange to the end of the input shaft on the Cavalier F23?

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

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mattwa
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Report this Post04-10-2012 09:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does the input shaft from the 3.94 F23 look different from the one you pictured from the FY1 input shaft? Are the splines on the input shaft the same, i.e. does the clutch disk still slide on? I took several measurements and a picture for you of my F23.

Bellhousing face to input shaft- 0.330 inches

Depth of "ground down" section on the end of the input shaft- .200 inches

Diameter of that ground down section- 0.850 inches

(I love how clear this picture came out.)


I would not just cut the end off, I would grind it down until it was the correct diameter, but that's just me.
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Justinbart
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Report this Post04-10-2012 09:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
They are the same as far as the splines are. The clutch does slide on like it should. The cobalt bellhousing half is about .75" taller. That must be why it has a longer input shaft. Thanks for the measurements.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
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mattwa
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Report this Post04-10-2012 09:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh ok, that makes sense. I ordered a SPEC HTOB spacer for mine today, so I'm not sure if you'll need one or not.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-10-2012).]

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Justinbart
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Report this Post04-10-2012 10:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mattwa:

Oh ok, that makes sense. I ordered a SPEC HTOB spacer for mine today, so I'm not sure if you'll need one or not.



What did that run you? I thought about just spacing the whole htob assembly out.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

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