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87 4cyl auto w 23828 + original miles been sitting over 17 years by weloveour86se
Started on: 09-20-2011 07:03 PM
Replies: 244 (7071 views)
Last post by: weloveour86se on 07-05-2015 04:14 PM
weloveour86se
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Report this Post09-20-2011 07:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So we just went and picked her up! Theres no battery so we havent tested anything yet. We had to do some brake work to get it to move. Removed rear pads and gave the fronts a lil pry bar. We pushed onto the trailer and its now in the driveway.





Guys been going out and pouring a lil oil into the cylinders every now and then over the years. He says once a week. Theres a long metal funnel and a jug of marvels in the trunck. All the cars he had were well kept. Met him at the car show last weekend. Anyway where to start?

23828 miles? Wow!

[This message has been edited by weloveour86se (edited 05-01-2012).]

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Report this Post09-20-2011 07:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2farnorthSend a Private Message to 2farnorthEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by weloveour86se:

Anyway where to start?

!


Battery. See if the fuel pump runs and check the condition of the gas. If it doesn't run or the gas is funny colored, smells like varnish, then drop the tank.

Try to turn the engine over by hand before using the starter.

If he's been putting marvel mystery oil etc in the cylinders for years then you probably should change the oil before really starting it up.

Was it stored inside or outside?

Check the heater ducts, under the center console, and around the tail lights for mouse nests. I got one that had been in a barn for 8 years and had all of the above. (It was in Maine too.)

[This message has been edited by 2farnorth (edited 09-20-2011).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post09-20-2011 08:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If he put that much oil in the cylinders then its best to remove all the plugs and suction it out. You'll never start an engine flooded with oil and if the engine encounters a full cylinder on the compresion stroke when starting it will either stop or in the worst case crack the rings and/or break the piston ring lands. Once the oil is out and after you have cleaned the tank out, changed the fuel pump and put fresh gas in it, it should start but will smoke like hell until all of the mystery oil is burned out. This may take a few minutes and you will create a smoke screen in your neighborhood. The good news is that if the cylinders were preserved in oil the engine should have good compression. The bearings may have a flat spot on them from sitting so long but start the engine and listen. You may luck out.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, ZZP Intercooler, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
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weloveour86se
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Report this Post09-21-2011 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No fuel pump whirring. Threw a battery in and all of the accessories work just no fuel pump running. Cant get in to check the fuses cause the cars drivers side is against the house tight so the bikes can fit in the driveway. More testing to do. Guess I'll check for power at the connector on the engine firewall, that should tell us a thing or two

What size is that main pulley bolt? The one that I can turn the motor with? Couldnt find that imfo anywhere. I'm gonna need to run to the parts store to get that one socket so we can see if the motor will even turn. Just cant figure out what size that bolt is..




A little dusty but otherwise looks to be in good shape.

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Report this Post09-21-2011 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CowsPatootClick Here to visit CowsPatoot's HomePageSend a Private Message to CowsPatootEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by weloveour86se:
What size is that main pulley bolt? The one that I can turn the motor with?


24mm...I believe a 15/16" will work as well.
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weloveour86se
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Report this Post09-21-2011 04:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot:


24mm...I believe a 15/16" will work as well.


TYVM Cowspatoot running to parts store asap for that socket! Gotta see of I can turn this motor at all while its in nuetral.

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Report this Post09-21-2011 04:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CowsPatootClick Here to visit CowsPatoot's HomePageSend a Private Message to CowsPatootEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by weloveour86se:


TYVM Cowspatoot running to parts store asap for that socket! Gotta see of I can turn this motor at all while its in nuetral.


The advantage of this forum is that for anything you could possibly need to do, there is someone else that has done it in the last couple days. I did walk out to the garage to verify I remembered it correctly, though. Takes about 50 lb/ft of torque to turn it past the compression cycle...if it takes more, then something isn't right.
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post09-21-2011 05:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Q1 - Does the check engine light come on - key on engine not cranking? It should. If no SES light and no fuel pump - then look to see why the ECM isn't running. First suspect is the ECM reset connector is unplugged.



Q2 - Does the fuel pump run when you unplug the fuel pump relay and short together the pins with the Orange/Black wire to the Tan/White wire?

The fuel pump relay is located IN the engine compartment, on the firewall, behind the drivers seat. There are usually more than one. The one you are looking for have those two wires running to it, along with a Green/White (gets +12v from the ECM to turn on the relay) and a Black wire (Ground)



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weloveour86se
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Report this Post09-21-2011 06:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I can hear the fuel pump relay but no fuel pump whirring when I switch the key to the run position. Which of the three wires are the one I need 12v at on the fuel pump connector on the fire wall. I think the brown and white is ground but dont know the other two wires. The Haynes doesnt show this in any of the wiring diagrams... typical

Yea cowspatoot great help here on the forum, saved us on our other fiero big time!

Gonna get some ramps over here tomorrow and maybe pull the tank. Think ramps in back and jack stands in front will be enough to pull the tank? Maybe have to wait and see if we can get the motor to turn then go from there I guess.

edit, typo

[This message has been edited by weloveour86se (edited 09-21-2011).]

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weloveour86se
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Report this Post09-21-2011 07:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Q1 - Does the check engine light come on - key on engine not cranking? It should. If no SES light and no fuel pump - then look to see why the ECM isn't running. First suspect is the ECM reset connector is unplugged.


Q2 - Does the fuel pump run when you unplug the fuel pump relay and short together the pins with the Orange/Black wire to the Tan/White wire?

The fuel pump relay is located IN the engine compartment, on the firewall, behind the drivers seat. There are usually more than one. The one you are looking for have those two wires running to it, along with a Green/White (gets +12v from the ECM to turn on the relay) and a Black wire (Ground)



Tyvm Phonedog Will do these test first thing tomorrow. I can hear an audible click sound coming from the relay so I think that maybe okay. Regardless will do the test you pointed out first thing. Thanks again

Edit; yes we have the check engine lights coming on

[This message has been edited by weloveour86se (edited 09-21-2011).]

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post09-21-2011 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So you know the ECM is working and sending a signal to the fuel pump relay. The relay could be clicking but not turning the circuit on however.

Make sure you have +12v at the Orange/Black wire. You should have voltage there key on and key off.
Then jumper the two contacts. No fuel pump run = trouble past the relay (most likely the pump)

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 09-21-2011).]

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Report this Post09-21-2011 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
oh and BTW that first pic is where we picked the car up from and not our driveway! lol.Ours looks almost as bad but not quite
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post09-21-2011 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Downloadable GM manual - 87 and 88 should be the same electrically

http://www.fieronews.net/fusion/downloads.php
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Report this Post09-21-2011 08:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TopNotchClick Here to visit TopNotch's HomePageSend a Private Message to TopNotchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by weloveour86se:

What size is that main pulley bolt? The one that I can turn the motor with?


Doesn't matter -- you'll probably wind up using a big crescent wrench anyway. The average socket won't fit.
Edit: Maybe it will -- your car is an 87, and mine's an 88. My strut towers are different.

[This message has been edited by TopNotch (edited 09-21-2011).]

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weloveour86se
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Report this Post09-21-2011 10:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TopNotch:


Doesn't matter -- you'll probably wind up using a big crescent wrench anyway. The average socket won't fit.
Edit: Maybe it will -- your car is an 87, and mine's an 88. My strut towers are different.



lol TYVM for the reply. We first wanna see if we can turn the motor then maybe that will help us decide to either strip and part out or rebuild. 23 thousand miles, we would like to try and save this baby if possible. Well my better half would. She has grand visions of "His and Hers". I need some parts for my 86se tho, is my thoughts. Mostly body parts I want and seats, carpets and all that stuff.

Anyway thanks for all everyones time and have a great night!

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weloveour86se
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Report this Post09-22-2011 01:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dang, did the test Phondawg described on the fuel pump relay and still no fuel pump whirring. Oh well, tank prolly needs to be dropped anyway and cleaned out. Smells like a furniture factory in there.

Got a small spark when I did the shorting on the relay so theres power there...Gotta see if we can turn the motor at all and go from there I guess. Raining too much today here so it will have to wait till tomorrow.
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Report this Post09-22-2011 05:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
K so it stopped raining and I borrowed a 24mm socket with 1/2 drive and breaker bar and....

....It wont turn! Explitive expletive explitive.

Now what to do? Motor swap? It seems like a shame to part it with so few miles on it. Might be able to drop a couple grand or more on a new motor when the Eagle poops our next income tax return out. Are the swap options the same for a four banger as they are for a six? Are we limited? What would be some good choices for motors to swap in?

I'm gonna give it one more try with a cheater bar tomorrow and see if it will budge but I dont think it will.
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Report this Post09-22-2011 06:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Car had no air filter housing? Might mean engine is toast from rust. housing let less crap into engine
Looks like Trunk lid was open or maybe it's a flood car. Interior and front look ok? Look underneath dash, pull console, look for water damage.

Stop trying to turn engine.

Pull spark plug and look inside....
Pull TBI or just look inside w/ throttle at WOT....
Check engine and trans oil....

Maybe try soaking upper engine w/ some oil. Oil thru spark plug holes... 1/4-1/2 oz should do or use Spray oil, WD40 etc....
Pull valve cover to check all valve move once wrench works.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

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Report this Post09-22-2011 06:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TopNotchClick Here to visit TopNotch's HomePageSend a Private Message to TopNotchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Pull all the spark plugs and then try to turn the motor over by hand.
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weloveour86se
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Report this Post09-22-2011 06:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Car had no air filter housing? Might mean engine is toast from rust. housing let less crap into engine
Looks like Trunk lid was open or maybe it's a flood car. Interior and front look ok? Look underneath dash, pull console, look for water damage.

Stop trying to turn engine.

Pull spark plug and look inside....
Pull TBI or just look inside w/ throttle at WOT....
Check engine and trans oil....

Maybe try soaking upper engine w/ some oil. Oil thru spark plug holes... 1/4-1/2 oz should do or use Spray oil, WD40 etc....
Pull valve cover to check all valve move once wrench works.




Sorry for the bad pic, my over zealous friend pulled the filter and cover. The plugs were out and PO was supposedly pouring mystery oil in each cylinder once a month. Met the guy at a local car show and he seems honest (lol i know). His funnel and mystery oil are still in it. I dumped mystery oil in it yesterday. Gonna let that sit for awhile.

Great advice tho I will hold off on trying to force the motor. Just wanted to see if it would budge.

The engine and tranny lube looks ok. Will change them but they are not too bad. Tanks gotta be dropped and fuel pump issues.

We just arent sure about dumping a bunch of money into the motor and really are considering a motor swap for this car.

TYVM for all the great tips, sometimes I get ahead of myself. I gotta turn around, look back at myself, and say " slowww dowwwn ".
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Report this Post09-24-2011 10:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for spaceblondeClick Here to Email spaceblondeSend a Private Message to spaceblondeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
best thing would be to check the rest of the car out. before to many flights of fancy !!! if the body is no good then you have a better idea of whats next. And His and Hers might be a good idea
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Report this Post09-24-2011 11:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TopNotchClick Here to visit TopNotch's HomePageSend a Private Message to TopNotchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I like the 87-88 coupe style. Have fun with it!
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Report this Post09-24-2011 11:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If your previous owner left the spark plugs out between oilings I'd say the engine is done. That would do more harm than the oiling did good. You need one of those little fiber-optic cameras they have at the urology labs......and look around in there.
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Report this Post09-24-2011 07:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

If your previous owner left the spark plugs out between oilings I'd say the engine is done. That would do more harm than the oiling did good. You need one of those little fiber-optic cameras they have at the urology labs......and look around in there.


Your exzactly right about the plugs being out and so forth...Sad but true. So were thinking that motors gotta come out. Were gonna take some time and think over what to do. Motor swap or rebuild.

On a much happier note we got the missus's 81 gs450e running today!! Fun to ride.

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Report this Post12-26-2011 10:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update on this. We have a new tank and sending unit to go in. Bench tested the fuel pump and it works. Have a new screen to go with it. Might have to inspect the two filler lines as they were mushy on the tank end when we pulled the original tank. Thats our fuel system issues thus far nevermind vacuum lines. Those are next maybe.

We gotta get the motor back together and need a new set of headbolts. Anyone ever use these? Add says they are Felpro stretch head bolts.

www.ebay.com/itm/Fel-Pro-ES..._Accessories&vxp=mtr

Or these even from Summit and cheaper too!

www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-ES72733

Thanks and have a great night!

[This message has been edited by weloveour86se (edited 12-26-2011).]

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weloveour86se
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Report this Post12-28-2011 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Heres a quick pic I snapped of the sunvisor that demonstrates the practically brand new condition of the car. The interior is amazingly well preserved and untouched! All the controls show none of the usual wear that comes with years of typical usage. We are hoping we can get this car going soon! Just need to gather a few more parts. Pretty exciting for us!

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Report this Post12-28-2011 12:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GODFATHERClick Here to Email GODFATHERSend a Private Message to GODFATHEREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Glad you saved it. It looked to be in to good of shape to part out or junk.
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Report this Post12-28-2011 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
17 year old gas is definately bad. I wouldnt even try turning it over. Id prob be taking the tank out and cleaning it. The fuel pump prob is seized from hardened old gas. Prob replace all the fuel lines too including the filter.

You prob got a good deal if it was that cheap. Plan on spending a lot rebuilding everything thats now bad. Brakes, master and calipers, trans seals and in my opinion rebuilding the engine completely. I personally wouldnt trust driving it more than 20 miles from home if you dont do at least all that. Its great to find low miles old cars, but if theyve set that long, you pretty much just have a nice mint body and interior.
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weloveour86se
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Report this Post12-28-2011 08:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

17 year old gas is definately bad. I wouldnt even try turning it over. Id prob be taking the tank out and cleaning it. The fuel pump prob is seized from hardened old gas. Prob replace all the fuel lines too including the filter.



Soo true Roger, soooo true! lol We have a good jump on the tank I think tho. Sorry I prolly shoulda posted this in this thread, chaulk it up to my being a noob to forums. Again srry but heres the fuel tank thread. May have seen it

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119672.html

Plus my better half is hell bent on driving this car and I'm all for it! Dont think I havent been scoping and drooling at the parts tho.

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Report this Post02-04-2012 10:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Put our order in for these today!!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-ES72733/


http://fierostore.com/Produ...px?s=52771&d=186&p=1

Gotta grab some more parts then re-assembly begins!! If anyones got any parts they think we may need hit us up. Also check the mall add we posted. I'll go and update it soon! Now we just gotta wait out the weather as we will be working in the driveway. We would LOVE to have this car running for the end of summer car show here in our town. Thats where we scored the car last year. A guy with some other car in the show saw our 86 and made us an offer we couldn't refuse on this one. How cool would it be for him to see it running after it sat in his driveway for 20 plus years!
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Report this Post02-04-2012 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Take some pictures before you start re-assembling.....
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Report this Post02-08-2012 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes we got this in the mail today!! Now just a few more things, head bolts should be here any day!!



Edit: Sure is a pretty headgasket! hehe Fel-pro from TFS

[This message has been edited by weloveour86se (edited 02-08-2012).]

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Report this Post02-08-2012 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Don't know if you tried spinning it over. as I remember, on the 2.5 there is a" plate" a little ahead of the distributor, that you can remove & access the oil pump drive, remove the little intermediate shaft with the drive gear, & use a flat blade screwdriver or old oilpump drive shaft ,spin it to build Oil Pressure before turning it over. just A thought.
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weloveour86se
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Report this Post02-10-2012 01:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Went to Summit website to check the status of our headbolt order and it said estimated arrival date Feb 26 2012....What? Called and spoke to a customer service rep and she told me that date is when they are supposed to arrive at Summit then they would ship from there... What? So like March I'd finally be getting them? 5 weeks after ordering? What? No way, its 10 bolts.. So spoke with shipping and they spoke with Fel-pro and Fel-pro is gonna "drop ship" them. They are coming from Illinois and will probably ship next week!! Much better!

5 weeks for 10 bolts?? Crazy, what am I in the congo or antartica?

Reps at Summit very helpful!
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Lou6t4gto
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Report this Post02-10-2012 03:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
WHY did you Not just go to Advanced or Autozone & pick up the bolts ???? they do sell them ya know.
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weloveour86se
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Report this Post02-10-2012 03:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lou6t4gto:

WHY did you Not just go to Advanced or Autozone & pick up the bolts ???? they do sell them ya know.


Sigh.. To bad I didnt think of that earlier.

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weloveour86se
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Report this Post02-17-2012 06:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So the Fel-Pro head bolts came in yesterday. Got the head gasket kit the other day. I've gotten conflicting reports in person from different people. Some say RTV on either side of the head gasket, others say no RTV. Which is it?

Also whats the best lube for the head bolts during torquing?

Pics to come tomorrow!!

Thanks
Andrew
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Lou6t4gto
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Report this Post02-18-2012 10:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
fel pro head gaskets go on dry. head bolt threads, I always used non hardening permatex on the threads to "seal them".
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weloveour86se
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Report this Post03-04-2012 12:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Guess nows as good a time as any to start back up on this. It should start getting nicer out soon. I'm working this on the front porch! Lol. This shot is with the factory head gasket. Have on hand new Fel-pro head gasket set and head bolts. Just gotta clean the mating edges up first. I wanna take this nice and slow, I'm in no hurry with this car at all.





Whats the best lubricant to use on the new head bolts as i torque them? I have been told by friends that regular motor oil will do the trick. Also anti seize or rtv on the head bolts? Guess i need to do some serious research huh? Anyway It should be fun.

Thanks for any and all help, condemnation or praise! lol
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Report this Post03-04-2012 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weloveour86seSend a Private Message to weloveour86seEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lou6t4gto:

fel pro head gaskets go on dry. head bolt threads, I always used non hardening permatex on the threads to "seal them".


Same as RTV? Thanks for the tip. Gotta run to Napa before they close. I always seem to get there right as they are closing..

Edit: the haynes manual gives no advice here.

[This message has been edited by weloveour86se (edited 03-04-2012).]

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