Checked with the digital caliper and came up with somewhere between 3.21 and 3.25. The spring to extend the throwout bearing is somewhat strong and the bearing is allowed to pivot slightly from side to side when fully compressed... so it is difficult to get an accurate measurement, but I did it about 10 times swapping sides of the bearing and am confident this range is very close.
From what I can tell in the picture, it looks like the Getrag depth is 2.375", if that's correct and a Fiero flywheel is .810" then the total would be 3.185" for the Fiero assembly. 3.33" for the dualmass assembly - 3.185" = .145" shorter than the G6 assembly. The camaro flywheel is only .118" thicker than the G6 flywheel so .145" - .118" = .027" clearance from the recessed throwout bearing in the F40 meaning the camaro flywheel wouldn't have to be turned down much at all. Of course the measurements will have to be more accurate for a final conclusion.
Checked with the digital caliper and came up with somewhere between 3.21 and 3.25. The spring to extend the throwout bearing is somewhat strong and the bearing is allowed to pivot slightly from side to side when fully compressed... so it is difficult to get an accurate measurement, but I did it about 10 times swapping sides of the bearing and am confident this range is very close.
Thanks for the help, you really put me ahead for my planned engine build up. The dualmass flywheel would slip at the power levels I'm aiming for so putting it on an engine more powerful than what it's already behind would make no sense. My guess is it can handle in the vicinity of around 350 lb/ft, the SACHS rep I talked to said a 10% over run margin but that's not even 270 lb/ft and I know my engine is producing more than that on 8 psi. I have also experienced a slight slip on one occasion. The problem in this scenario is that I don't know if it was the clutch or the flywheel.
Thanks Will, you state 2.25" stack height on a worn clutch which I'm assessing is from the top of your pressure plate release flange surface to the bottom side of the flywheel mount, with .88" to work with for flywheel thickness.
Fieroguru's Getrag depth shows about 2.375" which leaves a clearance of .125" for the throwout bearing and release flanges so that range is within reason.
2.25" stack - .81" flywheel thickness = 1.44" disc and pressure plate height for the Getrag.
I'm going with Fieroguru's F40 depth measurement of 3.21" - 2.25" = .960" difference in stack heights, I know actual is less because you can't have the flanges installed pressing against the bearing.
So the flywheel thickness needs to be; .960" difference + .810 Fiero fw = 1.77", minus necessary air gap for the throwout bearing.
The camaro flywheel thickness is 1.738" which is .032" short. It appears that if the Fiero clutch parts are used the flywheel would not need to be shaved at all. The camaro or S10 clutch being a little larger in diameter may also work fine requiring machining for the flywheel ring gear only. That would be an excellent outcome of an automatic upgrade in clutch strength with the flywheel adaptation. It will likely need resurfacing for my application since the G6 pressure plate and clutch height appears to be a little taller; 3.21" stack - 1.62" G6 fw = 1.59" - 1.44" fiero clutch & pp = .150 " +.
I will have the flywheel drilled to accept the G6 pressure plate unless the camaro or S10 plate can be made equally as strong. I mentioned the G6 pp has a clamping force of 2000 lbs (per sq/in I'm guessing) as measured by my clutch builder which I believe is 500 lbs or more greater than the stock Fiero clutch, it also has more surface area and a greater diameter. My disc was made with Kevlar friction material so I'll go back with the pressure plate and have him increase the spring pressure above stock for more clamping force for added grip and if possible install an even larger diameter disc.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-07-2010).]
There's a lot in the thread that you are missing. The current subject is all about measurements without which you can't perform a proper combination no matter how simple it appears. This is about replaceing the stock dualmass flywheel with a substitute that is not a direct fit, if you don't know the measurements that I've inquired about you can't possibly know how much work needs to be done to the replacement flywheel. The clutch itself was resolved on page 1 or 2. Read back a little further and that will put you on track with what's going on.
But why would the transmission car what flywheel is attached to the engine? Ive had 2 different transmissions attached to the Ecotec, the MT2, and a F35, using a Quad 2.3 Fidanza flywheel, 3.8 Ceramic Clutch that was 9 5/8ths and a pressure plate that was similar to a stock setup. If I change the spline count on my clutch, which is possible due to the design I had made, It should attached right up to the transmission.
As long as the TB engages the PP so the clutch engages and disengages within its design limits, what does the transmission care about the flywheel?
But why would the transmission car what flywheel is attached to the engine? Ive had 2 different transmissions attached to the Ecotec, the MT2, and a F35, using a Quad 2.3 Fidanza flywheel, 3.8 Ceramic Clutch that was 9 5/8ths and a pressure plate that was similar to a stock setup. If I change the spline count on my clutch, which is possible due to the design I had made, It should attached right up to the transmission.
As long as the TB engages the PP so the clutch engages and disengages within its design limits, what does the transmission care about the flywheel?
You'll have to find the Saab version of the F40 6 speed to bolt to the Ecotec to understand what's going on, neither of the two transmissions you mentioned require a dualmass flywheel which is thicker than the flywheel you are working with.
As was previously stated, we have no problem with the clutch. Understand that if you switch from a Getrag to an F40 and the splined portion of the F40's input shaft begins ~1" further back inside the bellhousing, that your stock Getrag flywheel, will be 1" too thin. In other words, so what if the clutch disc fits the input splines if it can't reach them.
The F40 flywheel is 1.62" thick from flange base to friction surface. It is being replaced due to a torque limitation short of the expected power level. The Getrag flywheel is ~.810" thick, nearly an inch difference. Do you think the throwout bearing is going to be able to cover that additional distance?
Do you see now why that is a problem and why you can't just bolt an F40 to the engine with only a clutch disc change to match the splines and the .810" thick flywheel and go?
That's where the one piece camaro flywheel which is a little thicker than the F40 flywheel comes in as an alternative.
The talk about clutch disc diameter is for holding capacity behind a turbocharged engine, otherwise it is irrelevant to the flywheel issue.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-08-2010).]
I have an adapter plate on my ecotec, the pattern is the standard FWD GM for the bellhousing, mated to the stock fiero Isuzi 5speed (aka MT2)
The recessed spine didnt seem like it was that large of a difference in the first post. But it certainly seemes like a simple fix, I know our local clutch shop would be able to make it with the the clutch spine offset like the F40 stock setup.
While I have a spacer to offset the adapter plate, I dont think I would want to space the entire flywheel into the transmission anymore than required. Forgive me if I am back tracking the conversation a bit
As stated earlier in this thread, if you try to use a traditional tripod on the passenger side, there is a large gap and the majority of the tripods length is not supported:
Here is the bearing support I came up with to run a hybrid tripod (Fiero/Saab 9-5) on the passenger side (to retain the stock fiero manual axle shaft) using a fiero axle stabilizer bearing in a custom made aluminum housing.
Guru - did you successfully figure out the one long/one short axle (a la factory Fiero) situation? It's tough for me to absorb some of the information from this thread, so a quick rundown of each side axle would be great, if you could? Also, is your engine/bellhousing plane in exactly the same place as the factory Fiero?
Oh, and the Cobalt SS axles...they're from a car with the MU3 transmission, right? Do those require any drivetrain shifting?
[This message has been edited by 1986 Fiero GT (edited 04-09-2010).]
Guru - did you successfully figure out the one long/one short axle (a la factory Fiero) situation? It's tough for me to absorb some of the information from this thread, so a quick rundown of each side axle would be great, if you could? Also, is your engine/bellhousing plane in exactly the same place as the factory Fiero?
Oh, and the Cobalt SS axles...they're from a car with the MU3 transmission, right? Do those require any drivetrain shifting?
I am planning to confirm axle/tripod clearances this weekend and finalize the engine placement front/back and side/side. From what I have done so far, I "think" the 96 corsica axle shaft and hybrid tripod using the Corsica cage and Torrent spline will work for the driver side and the stock fiero passenger manual tranny axle shaft with the fiero tripod cage and Saab 9-5 spline with the custom bearing support will work for the passenger side.
The F40 differential is offset 1" to the driver side from the Cobalt tranny (F35), so using those axles on the F40 would move the drivetrain 1" to the passenger side. The bellhousing face of my tranny is about 5 1/2" to the driver side of the cradle centerline and I only have about 1/2" of clearance total between both frame rails, so I can not move it much more. In this location the tranny just barely clears the driver side frame rail and from my measurements the cobalt axles would be 2" too short on the passenger side (using the 9-5 intermediate shaft) and 2" too long on the driver side.
You should be able to use the cobalt axles with the stock engine location if you remove the outboard snap ring from the axle and allow the shaft to move a little further into the joint cup. Not sure that will be necessary depending on where the rollers rest in the inboard joint at ride height. I use the stock G6 axle and jackshaft on the driver side with the stock engine location and haven't had a problem although the assembly length I believe is a little longer than the stock Fiero shaft on that side. You can also take the easy way out and Have Moser make axles that will join the Saab inboard and Fiero outboard joint for around $300. Just make sure you tell them to match the snap ring groove on the axle not the one used for the rear wheel drive axles at the differential.
Hey Joseph, what were the part numbers for the shifter cables you used? Were they just universal units? Also, any progress on the shifter modification write-up?
Originally posted by 1986 Fiero GT: Hey Joseph, what were the part numbers for the shifter cables you used? Were they just universal units? Also, any progress on the shifter modification write-up?
Do not buy the 5-speed selector cable from Advance Autoparts or anything like it from someone else. The price of ~$70 is nice but they will not take the heat. The casing will collapse and bind the cable and it may also fail which is what prevented me from at least test driving the car last week to get some G-Tech readings.
I have one new cable from the Fiero Store that as far as craftsmanship is concerned is superb. It is adjustable at 3 locations; both mounting bosses and the selector connecting socket. The only thing I don't know is if it is built internally as well as the O.E. cables which have no problems standing up to the heat particularly in my situation with the turbo. For the 6-speed you need two of the same cable. According to the Fiero Store the cable I ordered is:
PN# 66445
The Muncie 4 speed also has a selector cable with the proper size connector at the transmission however it is not as long as the Getrag cable and depending on your build may not be long enough.
I have a couple extra shifter cables select and forward that are heat shielded if you are interested. These are stronger and re shielded. They are also adjustable. Let me know. customwheels@exoticmotorsports.com
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
Do not buy the 5-speed selector cable from Advance Autoparts or anything like it from someone else. The price of ~$70 is nice but they will not take the heat. The casing will collapse and bind the cable and it may also fail which is what prevented me from at least test driving the car last week to get some G-Tech readings.
I have one new cable from the Fiero Store that as far as craftsmanship is concerned is superb. It is adjustable at 3 locations; both mounting bosses and the selector connecting socket. The only thing I don't know is if it is built internally as well as the O.E. cables which have no problems standing up to the heat particularly in my situation with the turbo. For the 6-speed you need two of the same cable. According to the Fiero Store the cable I ordered is:
PN# 66445
The Muncie 4 speed also has a selector cable with the proper size connector at the transmission however it is not as long as the Getrag cable and depending on your build may not be long enough.
Originally posted by exoticmotorsportscom: I have a couple extra shifter cables select and forward that are heat shielded if you are interested. These are stronger and re shielded. They are also adjustable. Let me know. customwheels@exoticmotorsports.com
Post a picture of them for viewing. The cable from the Fiero Store is heat shielded although not as heavily as the original. It is considerably larger in diameter compared to the cheap cable and by cheap I'm referring to the quality and dependability. I would like to find someone who could make a cable to my specs. I'm also considering modifying an O.E. cable if I come across one with sufficient length. I have one that is about 7/16" thick but it's too short. The thicker cables help firm up the shift feel due to reduced flexure.
Curiously, has anyone looked at C5/C6 Vette shifter and cables for the F40 swap? I don't know if they're long enough or not, but the trans is in the back for them too…
Originally posted by Will: Vettes don't have cables.
Ah, I guess the manuals don't, so the shifter is out of question, but maybe the auto cable is long enough, and can be easily modified if necessary, to fit. I don't know if the ends are adjustable/changeable on it though.
Originally posted by dobey: Ah, I guess the manuals don't, so the shifter is out of question, but maybe the auto cable is long enough, and can be easily modified if necessary, to fit. I don't know if the ends are adjustable/changeable on it though.
Much easier to buy the cables already designed as a drop-in in this case.
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Much easier to buy the cables already designed as a drop-in in this case.
I would agree, but are there any? AFAIK, there's only the current option of using cables for the getrag, but one needs to be modified, because it's still too short. You can buy that cable already modified from Archie, sure, but I wouldn't really say it's designed for the application.
I was poking around the internet last night, and found Madison Power Systems. They will build custom length cables for any application. The Series 4 or 6 cables with HEFT2 core look most promising. I don't know what the required lengths for the F40 in the Fiero are, or who a local F.A.S.T. distributor is, or I'd have called them already to get some prices.
Originally posted by dobey: I would agree, but are there any? AFAIK, there's only the current option of using cables for the getrag, but one needs to be modified, because it's still too short. You can buy that cable already modified from Archie, sure, but I wouldn't really say it's designed for the application.
For the record, we used t modify one of the cable for the F40 but now we are getting both cables custom made so we haven't had to modify any cables for years. I haven't had the website modified for that minor difference yet.
We also have the cable mounting bracket to mount the cables to the transmission & we have a modification that we do to the Fiero 4 cyl. 4 speed shifter to make it work with the cables & transmission.
Originally posted by Archie: For the record, we used t modify one of the cable for the F40 but now we are getting both cables custom made so we haven't had to modify any cables for years. I haven't had the website modified for that minor difference yet. Archie
Ah ok. I was going off the info on the web site. How much are just the custom cables now then?
Originally posted by dobey: I would agree, but are there any? AFAIK, there's only the current option of using cables for the getrag, but one needs to be modified, because it's still too short. You can buy that cable already modified from Archie, sure, but I wouldn't really say it's designed for the application. I was poking around the internet last night, and found Madison Power Systems. They will build custom length cables for any application. The Series 4 or 6 cables with HEFT2 core look most promising. I don't know what the required lengths for the F40 in the Fiero are, or who a local F.A.S.T. distributor is, or I'd have called them already to get some prices.
If you are planning to build your own mounting bracket you can use two of the appropriate selector cable from either the Muncie or the Getrag. The Getrag cables are longer which were necessary in my case to clear my exhaust system for the turbo. I made my cable mount at the transmission adjustable so with the Fiero store cable I have a total of four adjustment points for each cable, all are not necessary but flexibility is a benefit. If you are not able to make your own mounting bracket it would be wise to purchase the cables with the matching bracket. You should be safe with at least a 67" cable, mine are about 72"
Looks like the F40 came in some AWD Saab cars too. A little more snooping, though, reveals it seems to have the same gear ratios as the MU9 2WD versions. Too bad.
Originally posted by dobey: Was just poking around eBay, looking for some things for my LS4/F40 swap, and ran across this: Saab 2.8T Turbo V6/F40 AWD Looks like the F40 came in some AWD Saab cars too. A little more snooping, though, reveals it seems to have the same gear ratios as the MU9 2WD versions. Too bad.
Nice to finally get to see what the AWD gearbox attachment looks like. That would make an impressive conversion option available for some popular fwd GM cars. The gear ratios 1,6 and the final drive are different from the 2 WD version with an even more unfavorable combination unless you have 28" tires on the car. 3.917, .740, and 3.76
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Nice to finally get to see what the AWD gearbox attachment looks like. That would make an impressive conversion option available for some popular fwd GM cars. The gear ratios 1,6 and the final drive are different from the 2 WD version with an even more unfavorable combination unless you have 28" tires on the car. 3.917, .740, and 3.76
Where'd you get those numbers? According to the Saab web site, the gearing is the same as the MU9. http://www.saabusa.com/saab...s/features/specs.jsp Scroll down a little and compare the Aero with the Aero XWD ratios for the 6-speed manual. They're the same…
Where'd you get those numbers? According to the Saab web site, the gearing is the same as the MU9. http://www.saabusa.com/saab...s/features/specs.jsp Scroll down a little and compare the Aero with the Aero XWD ratios for the 6-speed manual. They're the same…
They're from GM powertrain and may have been changed with the change of ownership of the company, copied and pasted (earlier ratios), or both gear combinations are available.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 04-26-2010).]
I've seen a lot of talk about rattle in the transmisison while in neutral and idling. One of the changes mentioned for the MU9 from the MT2 is a change in the detent on the shift sleeve, with some increased tension between the sleeve and rail, to prevent vibrating while in gear. Does anyone know if this fixes the rattlingi issue on the MT2 and if the detent fix could be put onto the MT2, or implemented in a smilar way if the MU9 pieces won't fit directly?
I'm not sure if it was mentioned in the last 11 pages (as I've only made it through part of them!) -- although Tampa Clutch Supply's website is down (for good??), they're still alive (and are going to try and stay that way after 30 years in biz according to the lady on the phone!).
I'll now go back to reading the rest of the thread before I start bashing SPEC (F'n POS) clutches, and asking other relevant questions.
Ok - after almost 3hrs of reading (with a whizz break in there!), I'm done.
Clutch question. I'm working on (what was) a running assembled car. ZZ383 crate engine, attached to an F40. Archie kit with his axles etc.
Problem it turns out, was clutch slip. A lot of it! After only 5000 miles of use, it was virtually un-driveable. SPEC of course denies it was their stuff's fault. The friction surface in their spacer plate has 80thou + gouges in it. The plate is warped all to hell. The clutch disc is almost a BOWL shape it's so warped. The pressure plate is baked of course.
Oh, and get this... when I emailed them to get a replacement friction surface plate, they told me what p/n to get. I get it, go to install it with the new supplied hardware. Bolts are 1/4 shorter than the originals. When I email and ask them to replace them - they THEN tell me that it must not be their spacer plate - since they "always" were that long! Uh huh...... all the bolt holes just "happen" to line up.... What a f'n joke! (pics available on request!)
/RANT
--------------
ANYHOW! New engine setup will have even more power (turbo). What's the best bet for a clutch here.
I've currently got Archies f/w + SPEC spacer plate (with insert I can't fasten down!) + a useless pile of disc & plate.
I have little intention of sticking another SPEC clutch in there.
Ideas?
edit: Just got off the phone with Archie himself (thanks - and sorry for taking up so much of your time). He says he has 40 or 50 of the SPEC clutches running around. Just so I'm not re-inventing the wheel.... ugh.... I think I'm going to have to slap in another one.
[This message has been edited by watts (edited 05-19-2010).]
The TOB on the G6 only has 0.54" of travel available. .
just took careful measurements, mine has .900" travel. when compressing it, it was necessary to open the check valve in the fluid inlet to get the bearing to completely compress.
trying to bleed my f40 clutch. after an hour of bleeding, the pedal was feeling pretty good, but no disengagement. if i let the clutch pedal snap back, i could get a VERY firm pedal. while doing this i then pumped the pedal hard. heard a pffft from the back and the fluid started leaking from the bellhousing.
my combo, 3800, new 3800 camaro flywheel, tampa bay clutch disc, camaro pressure plate (it is thicker than the fiero one) and f40. stock fiero master cylinder.
i am assuming the tob extended too far and blew a seal. the fluid is coming from the green bellows. i just measured everything very carefully for a third time. it appears the tob should be in the middle of its travel at rest/engaged position. (using up .450" of its available travel).
upson mentioned the fiero clutch overextended the tob, and he added spacers between the firewall and the master to limit its travel. (i assume a shorter pushrod would achieve the same effect). i take this to indicate that the clutch pedal will have more leverage than it used to (with the 282). this would mean a harder pedal effort, and quicker disengagement.?
perhaps when the clutch pedal was snapped back, the slave did not retract before the master refilled with fluid. the tob then stayed in the extended/released position, the next stroke pushed the tob to the end of its travel and then some. ? seems far fetched, as slipping the clutch pedal is to be expected sometime during use.
also, i will be using a borescope to watch travel the next time it is installed. i will update.
i did overextend the htob. after taking it apart, i can see a small clip at the end of the cylinder is partially pulled off. looking inside the cylinder, i can see part of a seal that was sheared off whe the piston was retracted. now, can i get a seal. and how can i keep this from happening again.?
tech note. the area of the htob is .887 square inches. i have read that the master is 11/16 or .371 square inches. (math is good)
