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4t60 swap? by jimbolaya
Started on: 07-25-2014 07:38 PM
Replies: 116 (2965 views)
Last post by: jimbolaya on 11-13-2014 08:00 PM
jimbolaya
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Report this Post07-25-2014 07:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey guys I have a few questions. My sons 86GT w/ the 3 speed auto doesn't get great mpg. About 20 on the highway. He will be doing some heavy commuting for his first semester of college. I was wanting to swap a 4 speed auto in for him. I have a couple questions.

Is 4t60 the correct number of what I am looking for? Yes, the 440T4 is also the same and will work
If so what kind of mpg should I expect with it, is it worth it? If 34 is the answer to the first question, then the answer to the second one is definitely Yes!
Do I need to change axles, Yes, or saying modify is a little more accurate.There are also "out of the box' options. See part #'s in this thread. or have an adapter plate? No
Will the car use the same cables, or do I need the ones from the donor car? I'm still a little unclear on this. after reading the article Phonedawgz posted, I'm thinking I use the Fiero cables with a little mounting modification
What cars are donors for this transmission? 84-89 Cutlass Ciera, Chevy Celebrity, Buick Century, Pontiac 6000 Any others? DO NOT USE ANY TRANSMISSION FROM A CADILLAC ALLANTE!!! SEE THREAD FOR WHY.
Is there anything I am missing or is there a better option? The 4t60 will need a vacuum line T'd in somewhere for vacuum modulation and there will need to be some transmission mount adjustment on the rear mount, although Fiero mounts are used, but not mount brackets. Also need a governor cap

FWIW, a manual tranny swap is not an option, so don't suggest it. (that would be my choice ) Thanks guys.

Jim

{I'm editing answers in red as they come.}

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 10-25-2014).]

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Report this Post07-25-2014 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadMarkClick Here to Email MadMarkSend a Private Message to MadMarkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had olejoedad, swap one into my wife's 88. It gets about 34 mpg on the highway. As to your other questions, I would ask olejoedad.
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Report this Post07-25-2014 08:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MadMark:

I had olejoedad, swap one into my wife's 88. It gets about 34 mpg on the highway. As to your other questions, I would ask olejoedad.


Seriously, with the 2.8? That is even beyond my hopes. That's exactly what my son needs. He'll be driving about 25-30 miles to school, mostly highway.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 07-25-2014).]

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Report this Post07-25-2014 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NeoMikeClick Here to Email NeoMikeSend a Private Message to NeoMikeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm thinking of putting a 4T60 in my 88 Formula. I'm also wondering about the swap. I did find this:

http://snowcloude.com/~banner/FIERO-4T60.html
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jimbolaya
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Report this Post07-25-2014 08:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NeoMike:

I'm thinking of putting a 4T60 in my 88 Formula. I'm also wondering about the swap. I did find this:

http://snowcloude.com/~banner/FIERO-4T60.html


Thanks.

Jim

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Report this Post07-25-2014 10:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadMarkClick Here to Email MadMarkSend a Private Message to MadMarkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Better yet, it gets out of the hole a whole lot better because of the gearing.
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Report this Post07-25-2014 10:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GrantmanClick Here to Email GrantmanSend a Private Message to GrantmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
there's another 4t60 thread that was done by Karl Hamilton on the space coast fiero website but it doesn't load any longer for some reason. I saved it and can email it to you if you'll pm me your email address. It's a really good article on how to do it.

I had it in my 86 GT with a 3.4 before I sold it to buy a 3800SC. definately worth the trouble. with the 2.8 probably need to be a little cautious with gearing. something out of a delta 88 will have 2.84 gearing, great for driving on flat highways and great on mileage. but would probably bog down up a hill with a 2.8. 3.06 would be better, maybe even a 3.33. might not get 34 more like 30 but it would accelerate better. the first 4T60 I put in was a 91 delta 88 (turned out to be a bit weak) replaced it with a lumina 4T60 with a shift kit. that was a nice trans. firm shifts without being too firm and better acceleration.

------------------
1986 Fiero GT fastback SC3800 3.4 pulley, LS1 TB
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee with "big boy" 5.9 motor
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Report this Post07-25-2014 10:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
440t4 or 4t60 (non-electronic) are the ones you'll want to look for.

It's even possible to get 40 MPG highway with that trans and the 2.8, after doing a 7730 ECM swap. Here's the one Darth Fiero did: http://www.gmtuners.com/Cus...r/KLRBLUGT/index.htm
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Report this Post07-25-2014 11:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Grantman:

there's another 4t60 thread that was done by Karl Hamilton on the space coast fiero website but it doesn't load any longer for some reason. I saved it and can email it to you if you'll pm me your email address. It's a really good article on how to do it.



?

http://myfiero.oceanmoon.co...nsmission-conversion
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Report this Post07-26-2014 08:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From memory, the 4T60 swap requires:
1 Two Different Axles
2. transmission mount brackets
3. adaptation of the trans select lever and cable
4. rewiring of the torque converter clutch
and the transmission itself.

There is no doubt that this trans swap will increase gasoline mileage and improve drivability.

------------------
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Report this Post07-26-2014 08:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Jim, you have a PM.
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Report this Post07-26-2014 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jimbolaya:
What cars are donors for this transmission? 84-89 Cutlass Ciera, Chevy Celebrity, Buick Century, Pontiac 6000 Any others?


These: https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...bo-Hydramatic_440-T4
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Report this Post07-26-2014 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Great list Dobey. That opens the pool of possibilities quite a bit. Thanks. I had scanned PNP online and they did not have any of the first 4 cars I mentioned. I know they have some of those on your list..
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Report this Post07-26-2014 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

jimbolaya

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On the 4t60 HD, I am assuming HD stands for heavy duty. Is it still an option for the swap?

Jim
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Report this Post07-26-2014 11:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jimbolaya:

On the 4t60 HD, I am assuming HD stands for heavy duty. Is it still an option for the swap?

Jim


HD means it has the stronger diff. It is certainly an option. However, it's not necessary for the 2.8. And you'll want to pay attention to the gear ratios in the trans you find. I think the HD versions have a different ratio that might not be as great for MPG (I don't have a list of what all the available ratios were, though).
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Report this Post07-27-2014 08:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
More than I ever wanted to know about the auto tranies and their gear ratios here,

http://www.gmtuners.com/tech/440_4T60E_4T65E.htm

Steve

------------------
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and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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Report this Post07-27-2014 09:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MulletproofMonkClick Here to visit MulletproofMonk's HomePageSend a Private Message to MulletproofMonkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You will also need the right governor cap.

------------------
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Report this Post07-27-2014 09:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I swapped a 4T60 into my Indy (later swapped it to Getrag 5-speed).
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000077.html

SAVE this file http://web.archive.org/web/...s.com/tech/440-4T60/

------------------
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Report this Post07-27-2014 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PaulJKSend a Private Message to PaulJKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Grantman:

.... but would probably bog down up a hill with a 2.8.



Why not just manually shift into 3rd / out of overdrive (4th) when u need power then shift back into 4th when you're level again ?
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Report this Post07-28-2014 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Found this in another thread. Posting it here for quicker reference. http://interparts.com/download.htm

Jim
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jimbolaya
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Report this Post08-15-2014 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just a quick bump so I can find this thread easier, on the phone, while at the yard. Going to pick one up tomorrow.

Jim
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Report this Post08-16-2014 01:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I got a 440T4 F7 from a Cadillac Allante. It was a replacement transmission, because it had a GM sticker on it saying so. Apparently replaced under warranty. I got the vacuum modulator, and governor cap, but we could not get the axles out. They were just too rusted. We did get the tripot shell part at the transmission, but only the shell the part that goes in the tranny. We couldn't get the spider part, (inner gears.) Will the shell work with the spider part on the Fiero axle, or did I need the entire part? I know those terms are bad. I'll post a picture when I get a chance. The best part of all this is we finally got the, 2nd gen, headlight motors off a 89 Firebird. His car is almost complete.

Jim

Edit: Follow the thread to find out why I changed the transmission name.

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 10-25-2014).]

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jimbolaya
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Report this Post08-16-2014 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jimbolaya:

We did get the tripot shell part at the transmission, but only the shell the part that goes in the tranny. We couldn't get the spider part, (inner gears.) Will the shell work with the spider part on the Fiero axle, or did I need the entire part? I know those terms are bad. I'll post a picture when I get a chance.

Jim


In case this got lost in the middle of that post. I could use this question answered. Thanks.

Jim

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Report this Post08-16-2014 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Spider should work, may be an issue with the roller diameter. Maybe not tho....
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jimbolaya
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Report this Post08-16-2014 09:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Spider should work, may be an issue with the roller diameter. Maybe not tho....


In Jimease? LOL. I'm assuming you mean the 3 rollers on each end, inside that tripot. Are you saying the Fiero ones might be too big, or too small?

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 08-16-2014).]

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Report this Post08-16-2014 11:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Possibly too small. You won't know until you get all of the parts together to assemble the axle.
I usually keep the tripot, rollers and spider from the donor.
But, you may be all right and it will all fit just fine.
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Report this Post08-17-2014 07:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Possibly too small. You won't know until you get all of the parts together to assemble the axle.
I usually keep the tripot, rollers and spider from the donor.
But, you may be all right and it will all fit just fine.


Cool, I have to get a Fiero axle from a manual transmission to do the passenger side, so I will know if it fits, or not then. I can probably go back and get the other stuff, now that I know it's held in by a c clip. After a long day of tussling with the engine and transmission in a junkyard, I had enough, and evac'd. Thanks for the help

Jim

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Report this Post08-17-2014 08:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just thought of this though. Are all passenger side, standard transmission axles, the same size? When I buy an axle, do I specify 4 speed muncie, 5 speed isuzu, or the 5 speed getrag? Just wondering.

Jim
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Report this Post08-17-2014 09:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Side for side, all OEM Fiero manual trans axles are the same.
Specify a CARDONE remanufactured axle if you order from the parts store. They use GM cores.
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Report this Post08-17-2014 10:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fiero sound gave me part #'s of some cardone axles that will work right out of the box, no assembly required. I think Im going that route.

Here are the axle part numbers
A1 CARDONE PN 601078 - LEFT side drive axle (21-inches long overall)
A1 CARDONE PN 601115 - RIGHT side drive axle (26.25-inches long overall)

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 09-20-2014).]

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Report this Post08-17-2014 02:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There are axles that will work with no mods. I had forgotten that.
Good thing I keep notes!
Post up the numbers!
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Report this Post10-03-2014 08:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I dropped the cradle yesterday in preparation for swapping out the transmission. Hopefully in a couple of weeks i'll have this done and will be able to report some mileage numbers. I'll take some pics along the way also. I'm only doing a little bit at a time because of work and family. I imagine if I wanted to, I could do all this in a day, 2 at the most, but I don't want to.

Jim
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Report this Post10-03-2014 09:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jimbolaya:

I dropped the cradle yesterday in preparation for swapping out the transmission. Hopefully in a couple of weeks i'll have this done and will be able to report some mileage numbers. I'll take some pics along the way also. I'm only doing a little bit at a time because of work and family. I imagine if I wanted to, I could do all this in a day, 2 at the most, but I don't want to.

Jim


Drive it to the Fall Classic when you get it back on the road. Should be a nice test for MPG.
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Report this Post10-03-2014 09:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Drive it to the Fall Classic when you get it back on the road. Should be a nice test for MPG.


Where is the Fall Classic located? I am guessing far from here.

Jim

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Report this Post10-12-2014 03:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well this is going slower than I would like, but doesn't it always with a Fiero? I got the old tran off, but I just could not get the 4t40 on by myself. I just couldn't get it lined up. It's also sprinkling, so instead of doing something stupid like breaking off the input shaft, I'll wait for reinforcements. That means I will not get this back together until next week on my vacation. Oh well, nothing ventured, nothing gained. At least I tried. Anybody got any tips for doing this by yourself?

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 10-12-2014).]

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Report this Post10-12-2014 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GrantmanClick Here to Email GrantmanSend a Private Message to GrantmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Took some messing with different locations on the trans but I used the engine hoist. Doesn't work well unless axles are in or no fluid in the trans. Does take some shaking and baking but all of a sudden it's in.
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Report this Post10-17-2014 02:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We got the tranny on the engine, but have come against a few obstacles. 1 is the mounts. It wasn't quite what, I thought, I understood. Secondly is the the governor cap. Another trip to the yard is necessary, but I now have a better understanding of what I need. Pics, questions and details coming shortly.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 10-17-2014).]

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Report this Post10-17-2014 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
First issue, the governor cap. The one with my 4T40, was the wrong one. The photos below will show the difference.

The governor cap on the left is off the Fiero. It will not mount onto the 4T40. Holes do not match and it will not sit flush to the tranny anyway. The one on the right (installed) does fit, however it will not work because the gear inside is metal, and spins magnetically. Unlike the Fiero gear, which is a plastic gear, and is gear driven like our headlight motors. Easy fix. I just go back to the yard and find one, off a 4T40 or 4T60 that looks like the Fiero Governor, but is a little taller. The visual comparison helped me understand exactly what I am looking for now.



Jim
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Report this Post10-17-2014 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Second issue, are the mounts. Once again, visual examination helps a lot here, as I was not understanding the explanation. Because of the misunderstanding, on my part, of what a mount exactly is. You do use Fiero "mounts," however, you do not use Fiero "brackets". Nor do you use the brackets off the donor car of the transmission. I took the brackets off the donor Allante, and they did not work. The confusion was I was thinking brackets and mounts were "all in one", and they are not. I need to return to the yard and find the appropriate "brackets". This will be somewhat of a treasure hunt considering, I do not know what car they come off of. Whoever originally did the write up on mounts, got the brackets out of a parts bin, and did not know what car they came from.

A few pictures: Rear mount area, wider angle, and then close up.





Front mount, wider angle, and then close up.





Passenger side cone mount area, wider angle, and then close up. this mount/bracket will need some welding and modification to work. the cone is longer on teh 4T40, than the Fiero, so it did not line up properly.





Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 10-17-2014).]

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Report this Post10-17-2014 02:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

jimbolaya

10652 posts
Member since Feb 2007
I worked the night shift last night, and I am exhausted, so the boneyard trip will have to wait till tomorrow. Good thing I'm on vacation.

Jim
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