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Fiero clutch problems, already read a ton on it by Brendo907
Started on: 07-14-2014 04:31 PM
Replies: 31 (866 views)
Last post by: 2.5 on 08-26-2014 09:15 AM
Brendo907
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Report this Post07-14-2014 04:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hello everyone this is my first post here I am just getting into fieros , My friend has an 85 Fiero that from day one the previous owner said it had clutch problems. For awhile we would just bleed some air out of the clutch by moving the clutch arm and it worked good enough to be a daily driver/ ice racer.He is moving and cant take it with him and offered it to me for a really good price and he wants it to go to a good home because its his "race car".
But lately we can bleed all day and get tiny little air bubbles. I have been tearing through forums looking for answers. For starters we have replaced the clutch slave cylinder with the Rodney one and also used the Rodney clutch flex line repair kit. We are beginning to think the master cylinder isnt doing too good. The floor inside isnt damp with fluid nor do we loose fluid over time, air just makes it way in. So we are thinking its an internal leak in the master cylinder. I also beleive it may be the OEM master cylinder in the car, of course im not sure but kinda has that look to it.
At this time we can pump the clutch up and get it into first sometimes, reverse is just grinding so to back it up we start in in reverse and it does lunge. The clutch pedal sits about 3/4 above the brake I think, and we can only get the rod to move about 13/16 of an inch or so
We have followed every bleeding instructions that we can find but we still get a ton of tiny little bubbles. We have had the wheel jacked up, we have had it level and we are running out of patience. I do understand this is a hard car to bleed but it looks cool driving around town.
What do you guys reccomend that we do? I guess there could be a posibility the new flex line kit is leaking at that connections but we did have the problem before we replaced both of those parts.
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Report this Post07-14-2014 05:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TopNotchClick Here to visit TopNotch's HomePageSend a Private Message to TopNotchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Has the master cylinder gone completely dry in the past? If so, it needs to be bench bled. The easiest way I know to do it is with Rodney's bench bleed kit (very inexpensive). It can actually be done in the car (disconnect line, plug line, install kit).
Also, if it is leaking, the fluid in the carpet may not be obvious. It can seep into the carpet liner and the liner can still seem to be dry. (Been there, done that.)
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Brendo907
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Report this Post07-14-2014 05:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TopNotch:

Has the master cylinder gone completely dry in the past? If so, it needs to be bench bled. The easiest way I know to do it is with Rodney's bench bleed kit (very inexpensive). It can actually be done in the car (disconnect line, plug line, install kit).
Also, if it is leaking, the fluid in the carpet may not be obvious. It can seep into the carpet liner and the liner can still seem to be dry. (Been there, done that.)


when he first got it he did let the MC go dry, he flushed all the DOT 3 out and replaced it with DOT5 after thoroughly flushing, we did this because the clutch was near impossible to use at -20, couldnt really drive it at -40. We didnt bench bleed the master, just have bleed the entire system alot, two man, one man, vacume pump.
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Report this Post07-14-2014 06:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Get the DOT 5 out and replace it with DOT 3 or 4. Fiero Hydraulic components aren't compatible with DOT 5.

The floor often isn't wet if the MC is leaking. The fluid runs down the front bulkhead and goes underneath the carpet. You would need to feel around the area where the pushrod comes through, in order to find it.

Pumping the clutch pedal to bleed the system will break up air bubbles into little small ones. Small ones can cling to the walls of the tubing and coagulate later. Pressure or gravity bleeding is the best way to bleed the system. If you don't have a pressure bleeder, try this. I know you said you jacked up the wheel, but I don't know which one you jacked up, so here goes.

Lift the front left wheel off the ground. It doesn't matter how high. It should just be off the ground. A floor jack is preferred. The left front of the car should be the highest point.
Fill the MC reservoir all the way to the top and leave the cap off. Keep an open can of fluid nearby.
Open the bleeder valve on the slave cylinder enough that the fluid begins to flow out. If you're using a hose on the nipple, be sure it's a clear hose so you can see if there are any air bubbles coming out or you can submerge the end of the hose into a glass container with a small amount of fluid.
While the fluid flows through the system, give an occasional rap on the side of the slave, using a heavy object like the handle of a ratchet.
Keep watch on the MC reservoir and as it nears the bottom, refill it.
Continue this process until you've filled the reservoir for the 3rd time.
As the fluid level reaches the FULL mark on the reservoir, close the slave bleeder valve.
Replace the MC reservoir cap.

Now, it may be possible that you're cooking the fluid in the hydraulic line. Look at the line where it comes up to the slave cylinder and notice how close it comes to the coolant hose and exhaust area. Get yourself a length of the plastic wire loom cover of the type used to cover parts of your wiring harnesses. Slide it all the way down over the fluid line until it stops, cut it off just beneath the slave. This will act as an insulator and heat sink to keep the fluid from boiling.
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Report this Post07-14-2014 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think you have a mess on your hands. Dot 5 fluid is silicone based, and nearly impossible to remove completely. The mixed fluids will cause problems in the future. You may need to replace all the hardware.

edit: I hope somebody can tell me that i am wrong....

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 07-14-2014).]

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Brendo907
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Report this Post07-14-2014 07:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

I think you have a mess on your hands. Dot 5 fluid is silicone based, and nearly impossible to remove completely. The mixed fluids will cause problems in the future. You may need to replace all the hardware.

edit: I hope somebody can tell me that i am wrong....



i read that you can switch fluid out but you cant mix them or they deteriorate seals ect. So should i just tell him we gotta flush it all out? The car doesn't loose any fluid but does seem to have air sneaking in

thank you guys for the replies so far.
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Report this Post07-14-2014 07:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TONY_CSend a Private Message to TONY_CEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd try what fierofool recommends above but make sure the clutch master is bench bled first.
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Report this Post07-15-2014 09:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
DOT 5 could be a prob.

When I bled mine I would push clutch pedal down slowly, open slave bleeder slowly, squeeze slave by hand slowly and close bleeder screw then let pedal up and slave open. I repeated this many times while making sure the master stayed full in between. If this doesnt work I think you need a new master. Or the Dot5 is causing unknown issues.
I did drive for a day then needed to do my bleed again but after that all was well.

Oh.. use a hose on the slave so it doesnt spray.
Also i did not run my master dry so it is correct you may need to bench bleed first.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-15-2014).]

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Brendo907
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Report this Post07-15-2014 02:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

DOT 5 could be a prob.

When I bled mine I would push clutch pedal down slowly, open slave bleeder slowly, squeeze slave by hand slowly and close bleeder screw then let pedal up and slave open. I repeated this many times while making sure the master stayed full in between. If this doesnt work I think you need a new master. Or the Dot5 is causing unknown issues.
I did drive for a day then needed to do my bleed again but after that all was well.

Oh.. use a hose on the slave so it doesnt spray.
Also i did not run my master dry so it is correct you may need to bench bleed first.




now i know there are tons of places for air bubbles to hide but dont you think with all the bleeding i did that the master would be bled out by now. I mean we do have slave cylinder travel. But it does just take one little bubble to cause problems. It cant hurt right? i dont want to order anything so i think ill have to make my own bench bleeding contraption. any suggestions?
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Report this Post07-15-2014 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
New MCs usually come with a set of plastic nipples and hose to bench bleed. This one has a variety of plastic nipples. It says for brake master cylinders but probably will fit the clutch MC, too.
http://shop.advanceautopart...aster+cylinder+parts

Regarding the air bubbles--Using my gravity method, that's the reason for tapping on the slave cylinder. Fluid flows through the line and straight up to the bleeder if the car is sitting level. The inlet and bleeder are directly in line with one another. Air bubbles trapped at the pushrod end stay there. By elevating the drivers side of the car, tapping on the slave dislodges the bubbles allowing them to move up to the bleeder and be expelled without the difficulty of depressing the pushrod.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 07-15-2014).]

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Report this Post07-15-2014 04:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've only done one and it wasnt a Fiero one but heres a vid on the basics:

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Report this Post07-15-2014 04:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

2.5

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Search "slave travel" here and find some good info too

http://www.fierosearch.com/...UB&SearchQuery=slave travel&Action=DoSearch

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-15-2014).]

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Report this Post07-15-2014 06:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You can bench bleed it with it still in the vehicle, too. Just place something underneath to catch any fluid that leaks out. I saw in the video that the hose ends weren't submerged into the fluid. I've always submerged them to keep them from pulling air back into the MC when you back off on the piston.
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Report this Post07-17-2014 05:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Alright ill see what i can find at the auto parts store, i know there are no clutch m/cs in stock here (already checked), but if i can bleed it, i actually had my buddy start spraying the connection with penetrating oil every day so i dont end up ruining a line, what size is the wrench to take the line off the m/c? Ill end up going and buying a line wrench to take it off, unless it fits one of the ones i alreadfy have then im golden.
Thanks so far for all your help guys, im pretty excited about getting this as a daily driver.
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Report this Post07-21-2014 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Any progress on this?
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Brendo907
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Report this Post07-23-2014 05:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

Any progress on this?


yes! i got the bleeding kit from napa, bench bled it and i can shift! So then I gave my buddy the 600$ he wanted for it (and a set of studs on rims). He was relocating and couldnt take it with him, so he offered me the buddy deal. That m/c just had alot of air in it.

I didnt get the DOT5 out yet, I will be doing that after i move into the new place with the garage where i can flush the system out really good and have the proper fluid.
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Report this Post07-23-2014 08:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Now that you have the air out and the system operating you can flush the system using new fluid, and not get more air into it. Use my gravity bleed method described above and run about a half of a small can of fluid through it. There's probably no need to bump on the slave cylinder unless you just want to check for the possibility of any missed air.

The DOT 5 fluid can harm the rubber parts but I don't know how long it takes to have any bad effects.

Now, enjoy.
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Report this Post07-23-2014 09:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newfiejeffClick Here to Email newfiejeffSend a Private Message to newfiejeffEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fiero fool is correct on gravity bleeding it, that will get all the air out. I had to bleed mine last night and tried it all but couldn't get anymore than 7/8 inch travel. I bled it using gravity and now I have 1 1/4 inches. I actually put a container under the slave and took the bleed out all together, that really got it flowing pretty good.
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Report this Post07-28-2014 12:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

Now that you have the air out and the system operating you can flush the system using new fluid, and not get more air into it. Use my gravity bleed method described above and run about a half of a small can of fluid through it. There's probably no need to bump on the slave cylinder unless you just want to check for the possibility of any missed air.

The DOT 5 fluid can harm the rubber parts but I don't know how long it takes to have any bad effects.

Now, enjoy.


thats the plan, just in the home buying process and will have a garage after i do so. it will be much easier

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Report this Post07-30-2014 05:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i went and picked up the fiero today and drove it 14 miles from north pole to my house in fairbanks, I guess i need to bleed it again because i had to pump a few times to get into gear, especially first and it wasnt releasing enough so it wanted to move in first, actually in reverse i can back into my driveway with my foot all the way on the clutch. Kinda sketchy but i am used to driving cars with issues like that. More bleeding shall commence but i will use the correct fluid and get that fancy purple stuff outta the system
Also i did not run my master dry so it is correct you may need to bench bleed first.

[This message has been edited by Brendo907 (edited 07-30-2014).]

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Brendo907
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Report this Post08-12-2014 07:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Alright heres my latest and greatest update. All the DOT 5 is out of the system, the only fluid i see is the yellowish color. But after gravity bleeding most of one of those 32oz jugs I still couldnt get it quite right. So i ordered a master cylinder, i know i should have bough the Rodney Dickman one but Im on a budget right now so i got a generic one for 30$. Put it in, took apart the old one and lone behold the seals were wearing down and partially deteriorated.

So back to bleeding, what i did was use a 2x4 and the handle of a wrench to hold the slave fully pushed in and had the left front wheel up in the air. Waiting...filling...waiting...grab a drink...filling and I have decent clutch, well kinda Its the best ive ever driven with it but its not quite right. For 1st or reverse I push in the pedal all the way and it doesnt like to go in, back up on the pedal a touch and it goes in good and it works but its not what its suposed to be. I also have the factory aluminum pedal which i looked at pictures of a bent one and mine doesnt seem to be, actually i was surprised it looked pretty good.

Do i need to bleed more?
Replace the pedal?

Help me my fiero friends.

also just to add i did gravity bleed without the 2x4 holding the slave pushed in, i figured it was a good idea.

Thanks everyone
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Report this Post08-12-2014 07:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Brendo907

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one other thing to add, right now when i go to start moving i need to let out on the clutch just a little bit and start moving, i guess we can say it engadges very low on the stroke...im used to my vw bugs clutch..just kinda let it out and go
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Report this Post08-12-2014 09:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You probably wouldnt want your driver front wheel up, that would probably hinder bubbles from going out the slave bleeder. I bled mine tires on the ground since I believe the slave is highest. Of course I recommend the way I bled mine, since it worked for me. Also if you dont have a new slave you may need one, they can leak in air too.

Another thing that exists is rodneys "adjustable banjo". It can adjust where in the pedal throw it engages.

 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

DOT 5 could be a prob.

When I bled mine I would push clutch pedal down slowly, open slave bleeder slowly, squeeze slave by hand slowly and close bleeder screw then let pedal up and slave open. I repeated this many times while making sure the master stayed full in between. If this doesnt work I think you need a new master. Or the Dot5 is causing unknown issues.
I did drive for a day then needed to do my bleed again but after that all was well.

Oh.. use a hose on the slave so it doesnt spray.
Also i did not run my master dry so it is correct you may need to bench bleed first.



(Also to add I used a long 2x4 to push and hold the clutch pedal down while standing in back by the slave cyl.)

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 08-12-2014).]

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Report this Post08-12-2014 11:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I second the adjustable banjo. It works wonders. Here is something to check. Get down and move the clutch with your hand. If it has play, it shouldn't. The adjustable banjo will take the play out. Also, the pivot for the clutch arm could be worn. The fix for that is the steel clutch arm at the Fierostore.

I also preload my clutch just a smidgen. That is so the slave arm starts to move the moment the clutch pedal starts to move. You want that response instantaneous. Hope this helps

Arn
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Report this Post08-13-2014 07:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Arns85GT:

I second the adjustable banjo. It works wonders. Here is something to check. Get down and move the clutch with your hand. If it has play, it shouldn't. The adjustable banjo will take the play out. Also, the pivot for the clutch arm could be worn. The fix for that is the steel clutch arm at the Fierostore.

I also preload my clutch just a smidgen. That is so the slave arm starts to move the moment the clutch pedal starts to move. You want that response instantaneous. Hope this helps

Arn


Ii thought i didnt have any play but i crawled under there at 3:30am to get the burning question off my mind, i do indeed have id say 1/4 inch of play before the pedal moves anything. I do believe mr Rodney will be getting an order from me tommorow. Now i get to stare at the mail box for the next week.
Thank you everyone for the info so far, its very appriciated

[This message has been edited by Brendo907 (edited 08-13-2014).]

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Report this Post08-13-2014 09:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Measure how much slave movement you get now, 13/16 seems like it should be enough...

another related thread:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060811-2-069669.html

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 08-13-2014).]

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Report this Post08-13-2014 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That 1/4" of clutch pedal play means that the stroke of the master cylinder is always 1/4" short. This translates into short slave stroke and certain release problem.

I wouldn't play with the clutch system at all until that 1/4" is gone. I predict that it will actually cure the whole problem. It did that for mine.

Arn
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Report this Post08-15-2014 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Arns85GT:

That 1/4" of clutch pedal play means that the stroke of the master cylinder is always 1/4" short. This translates into short slave stroke and certain release problem.

I wouldn't play with the clutch system at all until that 1/4" is gone. I predict that it will actually cure the whole problem. It did that for mine.

Arn


That's what I'm thinking and I did call Rodney and chatted with him, he said it sounds like I don't need the banjo, but have more air in it. In my opinion I think I need to banjo and that will take up the slack. I think he may of misunderstood my problem. I don't need to pump to get into first i just have to be all the way on the floor and sometimes it takes some effort.

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Report this Post08-16-2014 04:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I don't think you've mentioned either one of these important points...

How far above the brake pedal does the clutch pedal sit at rest?

How far does the slave push-rod move the clutch fork lever when the clutch pedal is to the floor? (Don't guess, measure it.)
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Report this Post08-16-2014 07:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Lifting the drivers front wheel raises the master higher than the slave. It also has the effect of elevating the bleeder end of the slave higher than the pushrod end. Air bubbles will not move upward against the flow of brake fluid if you open the bleeder enough. Think about it---If you pump the pedal to bleed, the air moves down from the MC and underneath the car to the slave.

With the bleeder end of the slave at the high point, bumping on the side of the slave will shake loose any air bubbles that are stuck to the upper wall of the slave bore at the pushrod end and allow them to move up and be carried out by the flow of fluid, which is almost directly from the fluid line straight up to the bleeder port.

The throwout bearing is held in very light constant contact with the pressure plate fingers due to the spring inside of the slave even if there is no fluid in the system. If there was no tension there, the pushrod would fall out. The piston in the master is also held at a certain position by it's spring. Getting too much preload on the system can cause premature failure of the throwout bearing. When using the adjustable banjo, I'd suggest lengthening it just until you feel resistance then back off slightly on the lock nut.
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Report this Post08-25-2014 02:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Brendo907Click Here to Email Brendo907Send a Private Message to Brendo907Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Mr Dickman fixed my fiero blues, a huge thank you to him and the nice parts he makes for us fiero junkies
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quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

Lifting the drivers front wheel raises the master higher than the slave. It also has the effect of elevating the bleeder end of the slave higher than the pushrod end. Air bubbles will not move upward against the flow of brake fluid if you open the bleeder enough. Think about it---If you pump the pedal to bleed, the air moves down from the MC and underneath the car to the slave.


I guess I'd lift the rear drivers side if I thought that idea would help.
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