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Making a 2.8 have more HP by jumper
Started on: 06-21-2014 11:52 AM
Replies: 81 (1573 views)
Last post by: jumper on 06-26-2014 09:07 PM
jumper
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Report this Post06-21-2014 11:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had a friend tell me if I did this: "followed by a ECM tune: stamped 1.6 rockers, 272-2 cam, headers, ported heads. You might peak 200hp."

Would some of you who know more than I do tell me if this is correct or not?

thanks
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Report this Post06-21-2014 12:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageClick Here to Email hookdonspeedSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jumper:

I had a friend tell me if I did this: "followed by a ECM tune: stamped 1.6 rockers, 272-2 cam, headers, ported heads. You might peak 200hp."

Would some of you who know more than I do tell me if this is correct or not?

thanks


you...*might*... if you did some porting and stuff with it too, and opened up the exhaust manifolds a bit.
probably closer to 180 tbh tho.

[This message has been edited by hookdonspeed (edited 06-21-2014).]

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Report this Post06-21-2014 12:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
you...*might*... if you did some porting and stuff with it too, and opened up the exhaust manifolds a bit.
probably closer to 180 tbh tho.


Thank you. I'm new at this. I had a Fiero many years ago and loved it. I'm looking to buy one soon,
but I'm gathering as much information as possible before I do. I am not technical and if I did a swap,
I would have to pay someone to do it. just trying to get the best bang for the buck.

Can you explain a little how you open up the exhaust? Also, I could live with 180 hp <g>

[This message has been edited by jumper (edited 06-21-2014).]

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Tony Kania
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Report this Post06-21-2014 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Stickers. I found that the Magna Flo stickers are the best. Also a Comp Cams sticker positioned on the back window near the defroster connection is the best.
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quote
Originally posted by jumper:


Thank you. I'm new at this. I had a Fiero many years ago and loved it. I'm looking to buy one soon,
but I'm gathering as much information as possible before I do. I am not technical and if I did a swap,
I would have to pay someone to do it. just trying to get the best bang for the buck.

Can you explain a little how you open up the exhaust? Also, I could live with 180 hp <g>



do a search, the stock manifolds had some casting issues that choaked them a bit...
also start searhing for 3.4 or 3400 or 3800 swaps if you have the ability....
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Report this Post06-21-2014 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'll have to look up the stickers part, but thanks for the info...

And yea, I would rather have a 3800 in it. But I assumed that would be more expensive than trying to modify the 2.8... Which one is actually cheaper?

thanks
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Report this Post06-21-2014 01:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageClick Here to Email hookdonspeedSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jumper:

I'll have to look up the stickers part, but thanks for the info...

And yea, I would rather have a 3800 in it. But I assumed that would be more expensive than trying to modify the 2.8... Which one is actually cheaper?

thanks


moding the 2.8 is cheaper.... but a 3800NA is 200hp outa the box... would depend what you can do yourself for the cost of the swap.
engine 500-1000?
harness = $3-400ish
exhaust = $???
fuel system = $250ish?
mounts = depends if you can make your own...
possibly added cost depending on manual or auto.

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Report this Post06-21-2014 02:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
moding the 2.8 is cheaper.... but a 3800NA is 200hp outa the box... would depend what you can do yourself for the cost of the swap.
engine 500-1000?
harness = $3-400ish
exhaust = $???
fuel system = $250ish?
mounts = depends if you can make your own...
possibly added cost depending on manual or auto.


Although I would love to have the 3800, because of the cost, I will probably stick with the 2.8. Maybe down the road I could do the 3800 swap.
I really appreciate everyone's input. It's really helping me out!
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Report this Post06-21-2014 02:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ranger stoneClick Here to Email ranger stoneSend a Private Message to ranger stoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was told the power was in the head ,,did not beleave it,, until I had heads ported, port match ,roller rockers,spark plug alignment ,stock cam & I ran easy 14.5 in the quarter mile with a
2.8, 4 speed in a fiero , lotus rebody
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Report this Post06-21-2014 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for notaguruClick Here to visit notaguru's HomePageClick Here to Email notaguruSend a Private Message to notaguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The stock 2.8 has plenty of power for normal driving. But for abnormal conditions ranging from a traffic situation to raging testosterone, or a search for sheer acceleration joy, it's not enough. I'm a big believer in nitrous, set up as follows:

100HP maximum shot for an engine this small.
WET system (sprays gas and gas, so no destructive lean condition).
WINDOW SWITCH, enabling spray between 2500 and 5500 rpm.
WOT switch, turning on the nitrous only at some preset (100%?) throttle setting.
...and...
A remote bottle opener, so when the master switch is turned ON, the bottle opens and when the rpm passes 2500 *and* throttle is open, nitrous+fuel spray.

In the Fiero, the bottle should be installed below a false bottom in the "trunk", with lines and wiring concealed by carpet. The remote bottle opener is mandatory. It's trivial to punch the wall between trunk and engine compartment, and the nitrous line can be run very stealthily around the air filter assembly to the nozzle. That nozzle goes on the forward side of the intake duct (hidden). If you have a choice, pick black stainless lines and black sheathing of the wiring.

A new WET system might be about $400=450 *PLUS* the remote bottle opener. But Craigslist is your friend, and I bought my latest system for $450 including all the goodies.

Hopefully my car will be finished, with nitrous installed, in time for the San Diego Fiero meetup on August 23.
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Report this Post06-21-2014 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ranger stone:

I was told the power was in the head ,,did not beleave it,, until I had heads ported, port match ,roller rockers,spark plug alignment ,stock cam & I ran easy 14.5 in the quarter mile with a
2.8, 4 speed in a fiero , lotus rebody


That sounds great Ranger. Sounds like you really have that 2.8 moving! Maybe you could post a pic. I would love to see it.
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Report this Post06-21-2014 07:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by notaguru:

The stock 2.8 has plenty of power for normal driving. But for abnormal conditions ranging from a traffic situation to raging testosterone, or a search for sheer acceleration joy, it's not enough.


@notaguru: Of course you know that I DO want a screamer. Instead of looking for a 2 or 3 thousand dollar Fiero, maybe I should look for one with a blown engine and get it for cheap. Then put a screamer in it. I've seen a few on Craigslist for about 800 dollars. I can see that you like the nitrous. Sounds like it would be cool to have, but I'm pushing it just to get a Fiero and an engine (I'm PO) <g>

Do you think it would be a good thing to buy one that already has a 3800 in it? I always think that someone has run the DS out of it and now their selling it.
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Report this Post06-21-2014 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katatakSend a Private Message to katatakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just my opinion - save your money - do not waste it on the 2.8. No matter what you do to it to pump it up, it will not take it for very long. The engine was never intended to be a "race motor". Even with all the porting, cam, rockers, etc. etc., the intake plain sucks. You have to get air into the motor before you can worry about getting it out..
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Report this Post06-22-2014 03:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PaulJKSend a Private Message to PaulJKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by katatak:

Just my opinion - save your money - do not waste it on the 2.8.



+1 on this 4 sure

 
quote
Originally posted by jumper:

Instead of looking for a 2 or 3 thousand dollar Fiero, maybe I should look for one with a blown engine and get it for cheap. Then put a screamer in it.



just the opposite. Look in The Mall here for a car that has already been swapped. Guys here sell fully and project swapped cars all the time. That cheap craig's list fiero will be the most expensive car you ever owned by the time you get done with it

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 06-22-2014).]

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jumper
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Report this Post06-22-2014 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree with both of you. I don't want a 2.8 that will be short lived. I would leave it stock before I make a move to do a swap.

I'll check the mall here and I always look on Craigslist.

[This message has been edited by jumper (edited 06-22-2014).]

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Tony Kania
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Report this Post06-22-2014 10:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ranger stone:

...


FYI, banned member!
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Report this Post06-22-2014 11:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the heads up Tony!
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Report this Post06-22-2014 11:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It will be less expensive in the long run to buy someone else's swapped car that has the features you want.
Do your homework, check the seller out on the Forum if there is a build thread or has posted about problems with the car.
Maybe more dollars up front, but less money overall and you don't have to wait to drive it.
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Report this Post06-22-2014 11:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

It will be less expensive in the long run to buy someone else's swapped car that has the features you want.
Do your homework, check the seller out on the Forum if there is a build thread or has posted about problems with the car.
Maybe more dollars up front, but less money overall and you don't have to wait to drive it.


Good advice. I would rather buy one already built with a good engine. Certainly if it's cheaper in the long run.
I was just getting ready to look at the mall and see what's in there. Appreciate the help.
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Originally posted by Tony Kania:

Stickers. I found that the Magna Flo stickers are the best.


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Report this Post06-22-2014 01:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks,.. Now I know what stickers that were talked about

Nice job!
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Report this Post06-22-2014 04:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for planeClick Here to Email planeSend a Private Message to planeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
LOL. 200hp from this 2.8? I have real numbers on a stroked 2.8l to 3.1l. 1.6 roller rockers, dynamicly balanced, performance(ish) Comp Can 260H, ported (oem) exhaust, 17lb injectors with adjustable fuel pressure regulator = 150HP and 180 Ft Lbs Torque. This is at the wheels - add 17% at the crank if you want the number to sound more impressive, but be completely useless. This was a dyno tune to moderate O2 numbers for endurance racing. Could probably get to 160hp for shorter racing like traditional 20 min SCCA/NASA races. 160 at the wheels would be about 190 at the crank.

[This message has been edited by plane (edited 06-22-2014).]

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Report this Post06-22-2014 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by plane:

LOL. 200hp from this 2.8? I have real numbers on a stroked 2.8l to 3.1l. 1.6 roller rockers, dynamicly balanced, performance(ish) Comp Can 260H, ported (oem) exhaust, 17lb injectors with adjustable fuel pressure regulator = 150HP and 180 Ft Lbs Torque. This is at the wheels - add 17% at the crank if you want the number to sound more impressive, but be completely useless. This was a dyno tune to moderate O2 numbers for endurance racing. Could probably get to 160hp for shorter racing like traditional 20 min SCCA/NASA races. 160 at the wheels would be about 190 at the crank.



Wow! That really sounds great! Looks like you got a real winner there. If you have a pic I would love to see the engine. And yea, most people have already killed the 200hp thing. I need to go in the direction that you did or maybe a 3800. But I like the sound of how you did it. thanks for the info. This really gives me something to smile about
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Report this Post06-22-2014 05:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for planeClick Here to Email planeSend a Private Message to planeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Don't know how to do images. But is a LeMons Race car so really ugly and very dirty. Right now it is pretty banged up after a crash this weekend.
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Report this Post06-22-2014 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ask yourself this question......Does it make more sense to have a 2.8 (with inherent oiling problems) living on the edge, or a drivetrain that is designed for a heavier vehicle that produces that power comfortably.
If you are running an auto, its a no-brainer just due to modern four speed automatics.....
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Report this Post06-22-2014 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by plane:

Don't know how to do images. But is a LeMons Race car so really ugly and very dirty. Right now it is pretty banged up after a crash this weekend.


Sorry to hear about your crash!!! Bummer. And that's ok about being ugly. I would want the engine right before I did cosmetics.
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Report this Post06-22-2014 07:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Ask yourself this question......Does it make more sense to have a 2.8 (with inherent oiling problems) living on the edge, or a drivetrain that is designed for a heavier vehicle that produces that power comfortably.
If you are running an auto, its a no-brainer just due to modern four speed automatics.....


Guess when you put it that way, it makes more sense to do it your way. Don't think I want to live on the edge. Sorry to flip flop, but I'm just listening to everyone who knows more than me and try to make sure I'm on the right path. Let me see if I have the no brainer right. Our mini SUV is automatic but you can also use it as a four speed automatic (no clutch). Is that what you are talking about? If so, one thing about it. You don't have to worry about missing gears (I think).

Thanks a bunch for your help.
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Report this Post06-23-2014 12:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for planeClick Here to Email planeSend a Private Message to planeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If it helps the "living on the edge" issue, if I understand it. The engine has survived 8 lemons races including 120 degrees for 2 days last year. We did put in the higher capacity oil pump. A NASCAR bottle/swirl pot on the cooling system means that we have a hard time getting over 200 degrees except in 100+ heat and then 210 is the highest we see racing. Clutch needs to be and expensive stage 3 and 9 3/4" or it will slip (learned that the hard way). Transmission did blow this weekend (lost 4th and a lot of leaks), but think that is related to damage we missed after getting hit hard in rear wheels at the last race - it had about 12 races on it.

We abuse the heck out everything and are delighted with the power and that everything is "stock" (ECM, coils, distributor, timing etc....).
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Report this Post06-23-2014 12:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by plane:

Don't know how to do images.


Use PIP here.
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Report this Post06-23-2014 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by plane:

If it helps the "living on the edge" issue, if I understand it. The engine has survived 8 lemons races including 120 degrees for 2 days last year. We did put in the higher capacity oil pump. A NASCAR bottle/swirl pot on the cooling system means that we have a hard time getting over 200 degrees except in 100+ heat and then 210 is the highest we see racing. Clutch needs to be and expensive stage 3 and 9 3/4" or it will slip (learned that the hard way). Transmission did blow this weekend (lost 4th and a lot of leaks), but think that is related to damage we missed after getting hit hard in rear wheels at the last race - it had about 12 races on it.

We abuse the heck out everything and are delighted with the power and that everything is "stock" (ECM, coils, distributor, timing etc....).


Thanks for the info Plane. but sorry your transmission blew. With all your modifications you made, do you still have A/C? I've read where a lot of beefed up cars don't have A/C when they do their swaps. That's an important thing for me because it really gets hot where I live, plus the high humidity. I understand that it might cut down the power some, but I would like to have it when driving around town.

[This message has been edited by jumper (edited 06-23-2014).]

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Report this Post06-23-2014 10:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Ask yourself this question......Does it make more sense to have a 2.8 (with inherent oiling problems) living on the edge, or a drivetrain that is designed for a heavier vehicle that produces that power comfortably.
If you are running an auto, its a no-brainer just due to modern four speed automatics.....


I have a question for you. If I got a 3800sc, would it make any sense to to port it and put a performance cam in it?
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Report this Post06-23-2014 03:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jumper:


Thanks for the info Plane. but sorry your transmission blew. With all your modifications you made, do you still have A/C? I've read where a lot of beefed up cars don't have A/C when they do their swaps. That's an important thing for me because it really gets hot where I live, plus the high humidity. I understand that it might cut down the power some, but I would like to have it when driving around town.



I wouldnt worry about it cutting down on power. When its turned off it wont cut down on it
Also AC is left out sometimes from swaps because its not always easy to fit in, or may take custom made mounts and hoses which also cost money and people rather put it into the power.
If its important its important. It would suck the fun out of driving to be miserably hot.
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Report this Post06-23-2014 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

I wouldnt worry about it cutting down on power. When its turned off it wont cut down on it
Also AC is left out sometimes from swaps because its not always easy to fit in, or may take custom made mounts and hoses which also cost money and people rather put it into the power.
If its important its important. It would suck the fun out of driving to be miserably hot.


I figured that power was an issue with the AC. And you're right, I don't want to ride around sweating. It "would" take the fun out of cruising. If I needed a lot of power for some reason, I could just turn it off

thanks for the input.

[This message has been edited by jumper (edited 06-23-2014).]

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Report this Post06-23-2014 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KnightSend a Private Message to KnightEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thought ogre got over 200 rwhp with a carbed 2.8 and others have done so with a modified upper intake manifold neck.

If you can get 210-230 with the 2.8 modified, what can you get out of a 3.4 modified like a maxed 2.8?

Anybody want to chime in on how a built 3.4 would be?
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Report this Post06-23-2014 07:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

Thought ogre got over 200 rwhp with a carbed 2.8 and others have done so with a modified upper intake manifold neck.

If you can get 210-230 with the 2.8 modified, what can you get out of a 3.4 modified like a maxed 2.8?

Anybody want to chime in on how a built 3.4 would be?


Yes, PLEASE chime in...

[This message has been edited by jumper (edited 06-23-2014).]

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Knight
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Report this Post06-23-2014 07:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KnightSend a Private Message to KnightEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know that the 2.8 had oiling issues, but did GM correct that with the 3.4? Or do you need a 3400 block to correct the oiling issue?
If the OP is worried about complexity of a swap, the 3.4 upgrade is easiest (essentially same block) with just needing to relocate the starter (jig available). Just put on 2.8 pieces and reinstall.
To go 3400 block with 2.8 heads and externals, check fierosound's ride. He has a website with details.

Please chime in anyone that can elaborate.

------------------
Fiero SE 86 auto...on a mission to a bring her to a modern level of performance and comfort.

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Knight
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Report this Post06-23-2014 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KnightSend a Private Message to KnightEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Double post...

[This message has been edited by Knight (edited 06-23-2014).]

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RotrexFiero
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Report this Post06-24-2014 08:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RotrexFieroClick Here to visit RotrexFiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to RotrexFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would never waste time with a 2.8. The performance shop here was giving the blocks away. You can find a 3.4 if you want more of a bolt in engine.

I would go with a 3800 or better 3800 SC. There are lots of them out there.

But, trying to get 200 hp out of a 2.8 is more trouble than it is worth. I been down that road. Around 2000 I did power pulleys, chips, and even nitrous. It was all a waste of money. My 2.8 only had 25k on it. I ran a Rotrex SC (hence my handle) and with 6psi I believe I was only putting out around 180hp.

The Fiero is definitely a 200hp car, and does well performance wise around there. The question is how to get that HP in the best way.
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jumper
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Report this Post06-24-2014 09:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jumperClick Here to Email jumperSend a Private Message to jumperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RotrexFiero:

I would never waste time with a 2.8. The performance shop here was giving the blocks away. You can find a 3.4 if you want more of a bolt in engine.

I would go with a 3800 or better 3800 SC. There are lots of them out there.

But, trying to get 200 hp out of a 2.8 is more trouble than it is worth. I been down that road. Around 2000 I did power pulleys, chips, and even nitrous. It was all a waste of money. My 2.8 only had 25k on it. I ran a Rotrex SC (hence my handle) and with 6psi I believe I was only putting out around 180hp.

The Fiero is definitely a 200hp car, and does well performance wise around there. The question is how to get that HP in the best way.


@Rotrex... I think you have convinced me that trying to hop up a 2.8 is not the way to go. I guess if people were giving away the blocks, that should tell you something. I like the idea about using a 3800 SC, but I have a question for you... I've heard about people doing a swap with a 4.3. Do you think that would be better? I know they make some with a DOHC, but don't know if that's a better idea than the 3800SC. What's your opinion about doing a 4.3 swap?

Keep in mind that I want to keep the AC. How much difference does it make in hp? And is the 4.3 a lot of trouble to swap? I believe you are right when it comes to getting the best hp in the best way.

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ranger stone
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Report this Post06-24-2014 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ranger stoneClick Here to Email ranger stoneSend a Private Message to ranger stoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am not a banned member this is just negative information .I knew a member who was banned !!
he really help me with my car,uhlanstan spend almost 100 hours helping me,now because of association I have
come under attack by the atheist hate mongers !!
I post from the library do not have my own computer
the power is in the heads is just common sense,it is
where the power is in the 60o V6,,made a tremendous difference in my car
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