I love the fiero, but the project is done and I just enjoy driving it now. This is not to replace the fiero, just an addition to the stable. It's time for something new so I picked up this thing.









It is a 1977 Sebring-Vanguard citicar. 48v electric. Like a fiero its mid motor, rwd, underpowered, a lot of plastic, and under appreciated.
This one at one point was a show car, currently not driving and in need of some serious love.
I have no explination of why I needed to have one of these, but here it is.
Anyone familiar with them?

[This message has been edited by gen2muchwork (edited 10-02-2017).]

Doesn't Rollie on Count Customs have one of these?

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: Doesn't Rollie on Count Customs have one of these?

One of those shows picked one up a few years ago. I caught some of it. The whole car in general is hilarious to me that it it exists. There are a lot of not weatherproof connectors. I've gotta take some pics. I just washed it for the first time since 2008. The info from the first restoring owner claims it made a short appearance in thx-1138

I know where there is (or was) one of those in a junkyard. I took a picture of it but until now I had no idea what it was!

quote Originally posted by css9450: I know where there is (or was) one of those in a junkyard. I took a picture of it but until now I had no idea what it was!

I'm surprised a junkyard would take it. There is not much metal to scrap. Half of the weight is 8 6v batteries. With that said, there are only 4000 of them if you lump comutacar along with them. If you remember the yard you found it in let me know. Surely I'll need a few parts as this progresses.

the electric system on this is hillarious. non insulated spade connectors on everything. So tarnished and oxidized every last one of them. The acc. system runs on 12v for some of it, 18 for others. some of the 18v circuits use a resistor to drop it to 12v at the device, for example the wiper motor.

The drive system uses a series of contactors essentially giving the gas pedal 3 positions rather than a pot setup. It switches batteries parrallel through a monster resistor for speed 1 (10mph), parrallel without resistor for speed 2 (20mph) and series for speed 3 (38?mph) Its wonderfully archaic. If it drives me nuts, I may consider switching to a modern controller. For now, I only have one set of contacts that look not so hot, but I do think i can save them. Many of the electronic boards have riveted connections for terminals. Most of these are loose. IDK yet how to approach that repair, re rivet or solder.

It came with a service manual that is full of hand drawn wiring diagrams and words typed on a typewriter. I like reading it. My favorite part is the defroster circuit. It states that the govt. mandated a defroster switch, but the ended it there. No wires, no defroster. Later they had a dealer option electric element that got epoxied to the windshield.

Being a late model, I got the Dana axle (vs terrel) and a 6hp GE motor (vs. 3.5 GE), along with full door frames with sliding windows, and door handles. The early ones had a setup like a wrangler with a solid door, but soft window.

Plastic shrinkage over the years will have me mixing much mek and abs pellets to repair cracks, but its not too severe.

The early cars had disc brakes up front. They were so bad the late cars went to 4 drums. Go figure.

4000 people bought these, and they were more expensive than their gas counterparts in many cases.

The good news, my wife likes it and the kids LOVE it.

I had to pick somewhere to start, so I have begun cleaning every connection in the car. I started in the dash hoping to become familiar with the whole thing, and have it clean when I begin testing the harness. If you are familiar with Lucas products you might recognise the turn signal stalk. I find it humorous that an American electric car used Lucas electrical.
Here are some shots of the dash and connector cleaning. I think I'm going to need some deoxit. this is all pretty crusty.

Here's another Citycar owner page.

http://300mpg.org/projects/citicar/

I look forward to seeing the progress you make.

[This message has been edited by CoolBlue87GT (edited 10-07-2017).]

Its going very well so far, I have all the dash connectors clean now. I removed the extra aftermarket fuse panel. It ran the horn through a stupid extra switch electrical taped to the steering column, the radio, dome light, and put 12v on an 18v gauge. I dont know why. In the process of sorting those back the way they should be. The wiring seems like a breeze after the fiero swap. I did put 12v on the control system last night and it came to life! The contactors are functioning, along with the pedal controls, as well as the wipers, lights, turn signals. I tested the 48v charger that is out of the car and has clip on terminals instead of being mounted under the dash. I dont know why either. It tested ok for me, so I'm going to put it back under the dash, and wire the plug to the fender receptacle again. It seems plausible that the p.o. had put a battery where the charger was to run the 12v system rather than pulling off 2 of the 6v. That might explain the strange wiring and charger pulled out. I don't know why anyone would want that, unless it was driven at night a lot, or the radio was on when parked hanging out for long periods. I don't plan on doing much of either of those things. If the horn button on the turn signal stalk is bad, I'll replace it. It is still available it think, a lucas part common on the MG spitfire?

I want the name and address of the engineer that designed that wiring.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: I want the name and address of the engineer that designed that wiring.

I know, all unsealed copper spade connectors. I feel like this thing was built for Russian cosmonauts. I'm nearing completion on the front half wiring. there were a few chop jobs throughout. One interesting find, and you cant do this unless you have a plastic car... The marker light had a 12v supply going to the light frame instead of the bulb terminal. the bulb was grounded instead. It didnt work anyways since one person did some wiring, then another I expect as the supply line was also spliced to a ground (since it looked like a ground). I still have to deal with the horn, courtesy lights and radio.
Another interesting thing to note, the turn signals run off the same fuse as the headlights on a constant 12v circuit. that means, if you bump the lever on the way out the signal stays on and you return to a dead battery. According to the wiring diagram, that is normal. I might change that, but with the hazards and the way it is wired it may not be worth the hassle to separate it.
Another problem I'm encountering is the fade present on the wire colors. I'm color blind, but usually get by ok on wiring. This stuff.... white, grey, tan, green, yellow all look the same. it's slowing me down a little since i have to verify each color, then tag the wire.

Whats up with the mud daubers in WV? I've never seen so many. Almost every air vent was full of them (old dead thankfully), packed almost completely. fist size!

Hopefully, I'll be on to the High power side this weekend, including the contactor array and motor. The speed control on this is something to behold. I'll make sure to take some pics during the process, and the completed mess no more dashboard.

Part of me is dying to get some batteries in this, but the smart part is telling me to wait until spring to avoid any frozen battery mishaps should the charger crap out and no $ to replace it immediately.

quote Originally posted by gen2muchwork: Whats up with the mud daubers in WV?

What's up with people who can't use a much more common term... like wasps. I had no idea what the heck "mud daubers" were, until I googled it.


Hot stuff!

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-15-2017).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: What's up with people who can't use a much more common term... like wasps. I had no idea what the heck "mud daubers" were, until I googled it.

People who know what mud dabers are know how much they suck. They will pack bolt holes and open hose ends with mud. The mud is harder to deal with then paper wasp nests

quote Originally posted by LitebulbwithaFiero: People who know what mud dabers are know how much they suck.

I suspect mosquitoes "suck" a great deal more than mud daubers.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I suspect mosquitoes "suck" a great deal more than mud daubers.

I have to deal with both

Hey gen2, I got the perfect motor to put in that thing

[This message has been edited by LitebulbwithaFiero (edited 10-17-2017).]

quote Originally posted by LitebulbwithaFiero: I have to deal with both Hey gen2, I got the perfect motor to put in that thing

nothing about the construction of this makes me think it should ever have an engine in it. I suspect its smart that it doesn't go faster than 40 on a few levels. It has non assisted 7" drums at all 4 corners on 12" tires, leaf sprung solid rear axle, no sway bars, and the aerodynamics of a wedge of cheese. Not to mention the seat base is a plastic tub, the doors have no metal whatsoever in them, save the window channel. The only glass window is the windshield.

I bet, if I hit a cat at 40 mph it would pass right through the abs body, on into the cabin and land in my lap.

quote Originally posted by gen2muchwork: I bet, if I hit a cat at 40 mph it would pass right through the abs body, on into the cabin and land in my lap.

Taking that a step further... does the chance of hitting something a bit more solid than a cat (or being hit by something a bit more solid than a cat) not scare you a little?

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Taking that a step further... does the chance of hitting something a bit more solid than a cat (or being hit by something a bit more solid than a cat) not scare you a little?

Only sort of. Compared to the motorized bicycle, this is very safe. Compared to the wagon, its a death trap. The good news, even with its small stature, it is really hard to miss on the road.
I've been tossed out of a golf cart more than a few times, but the pavement vs the fairway might feel different.

I finally completed the turn/head/parking light circuit. I ran into some problems in the rear where a ground wire had burned up. Generally, every ground is a copper (or steel) ring screwed into an aluminum frame. Corrosion is a real problem with all of them.
I'm going through the brake lighting now. In all the diagrams, there are 4 brake switches referenced, and not always clearly noted as to which one is referred to, just "brake sw". Is it the parking brake sw, the brake warning sw, the pedal sw that cuts power, or the brake light sw. So I fight through it.
An interesting note, the brake light switch is on the brake line and is a pressure switch. So, if you loose hydraulic pressure and are frantically pumping the brakes, at least nobody will know. I've never seen a pressure switch used as a brake light switch, so thats new to me. For a while I really thought it was part of the warning circuit.
I've still got more work on the low power side. I thought i'd be through it by now, but i keep finding buggered up stuff, and little shortcuts through the wiring from some previous owners. Its nice to see the dash and outside lights turn on reliably though.

quote Originally posted by gen2muchwork: I've been tossed out of a golf cart more than a few times, but the pavement vs the fairway might feel different.

Probably not too many large trucks on the 8th green either.

Maybe you could hire Miss Dandelion and plant her on the roof as a lookout.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-18-2017).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Probably not too many large trucks on the 8th green either. Maybe you could hire Miss Dandelion and plant her on the roof as a lookout.

miss coal heritage may be a better choice for power vs weight.

quote Originally posted by gen2muchwork: miss coal heritage may be a better choice for power vs weight.

That young sprout is certainly much cuter than ol' Miss Dandelion... and she's no doubt also legal age by now.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-19-2017).]

Ok, the only thing left on the 12v side is the courtesy light ground. Its riveted on the light and is loose. I fixed the stereo sort of. The power switch on the volume pot was trashed. Since its a single wire unit on switched power, I just bridged the on/off switch and it works, but doesn't really turn off if the key is on. I can live with that for now. Some chrome delco am/fm unit of 77ish vintage would be a nice addition in the future.

I started to install the charger, but for some reason the mount holes dont line up. Maybe I'm missing some adapter. Theres not any info on the mounting of the charger anywhere I can find. There are mounting points, so I'm sure I can whip up something that will adapt and bolt it down. Going to have to be stout though, that charger is heavy. I could see an upgrade to a new style high frequency charger in the future, but the big box with screw in fuses fits the era and looks right. I'm going to close the dash up tonight and snap some pics of my happy dash.

Its still funny that this thing has like 5,000 miles on it. Definitely the lowest of any car I've ever owned.

Very cool, and I have been following this.

I have never owned a car with 5,000 or less miles. Had a rotisserie 66 Chevelle, but that was bought with just over that on the odometer.

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: Very cool, and I have been following this. I have never owned a car with 5,000 or less miles. Had a rotisserie 66 Chevelle, but that was bought with just over that on the odometer.

I was off on that... it's 2397 mi!


I got a lot done this weekend.
The dash is wired and fully functional, the whole 12v and 18v system is.
I also got the charger mounted. As it turns out I have a charger from an early model. The newer ones are a different shape and are not so visible. Really, I like this setup just fine.






I fixed the stereo too. the on off switch on the vol. pot went bad. I'd really like to replace this with a period correct delco of some sort.


Then, I moved on to the contactors. There is a dpst and a dpdt. The contacts are pretty bad. I cleaned them up enough they will work, but I need to decide an alternative in the future. Either source new contacts, repair these ones, or go all electronic controller.








I swapped the worst ones to the reverse circuit. Only about 4 contacts were what I would normally consider useable, but I filed the rest to get some testing and the end of their service life out of them. It's not ideal, but it's all I've got for now. I have to go through some books to reference the contactor parts. I think forklifts use a similar setup, but It may turn out to be very difficult to find the correct ones.
I'm leaning towards a new modern controller. The curtis ebay imitations are pretty cheap. I'd need at least a 500a 48v controller, so it gets $ fast. Perhaps someone will wreck a golf cart on craigslist in the future. The Newer alltrax ones would be right on for what i'd need, but are even bigger $ for good reason.

I also got the drivers door straight. both were so warped that you could fit a hand throught the top with the door latched. Heat gun weight and patience. they should be ok now.

Did they really put those hand-drawn half-assed diagrams in the service manual? Good Gawd. Just bought a copy of the service manual on eBay. I design automotive wiring harnesses for a living, and this is simultaneously intriguing, hysterical, and horrifying. I'll have to show the guys at work once it gets here...

yep, pretty much everything looks hand drawn, and typed with a well used typewriter. It's put together fairly well, but does not cover all of the changes through the years (there were a lot) and warns the reader of this along with wire color discrepancy. There also seems to be a few people who drew them. sometimes they use a dot to denote a connection sometimes not. sometimes they draw a hump over the wires crossing to denote no connection, sometimes not. lol. No matter what its an interesting piece of history and amazing that theis was a "mass produced" car with a manual like this. For a minute, they were the #6 automaker!
As you read it you will laugh when they get to the defroster, going on to explain that the feds required the switch for it, but it's not connected to anything since they had not made a defroster till after #1751, around 1976 and that was an electric element to be glued? on the bottom of the windshield, by the dealer or consumer.

I found some contacts and bought them off ebay, from a raymond forklift. My mail carrier can't read and delivered them somewhere other than my house. I'm bummed out about that. IDK if I will ever see them and they were not cheap. If they never show, I might have to go with a modern golf cart controller.

Out with old


In with new



I'm lucky they fit! All the contacts and springs are a match,. The ceramics did not all fit the f/r contactor. Since it is a little taller. I just re used my good used ceramics.

[This message has been edited by gen2muchwork (edited 10-30-2017).]

Lots of work done. All electrical should be good to go. My hi voltage cables were really bad.





So I replaced them all.
4 batteries were beyond toast. I borrowed 4 for testing purposes.


Don't know the last time this read "f".
I hit the gas, didn't explode or catch fire, and moved a foot.
When it is light out and not raining it's maiden voyage time.

Cool. Nothing to add, just wanted to let you know I am following this

I almost pulled it out yesterday, but after a little more testing, I decided to replace 3 additional 48v cables. One was getting a bit warm. Another that leads from the slow speed resistor looked bad enough too so that will be replaced. But I'm sure I'm going to break the ceramic standoff its on, so I need to get some replacements before I do that. The ceramic standoff on the other side of the resistor got a chunk cracked off already when I did those cables. That thing gets HOT. Its in the wheel well on the passenger rear. It seems like someone should have designed a guard around that thing. don't park on leaves with a citicar.

It drives!

Idk if I know how to post a video. Maybe this works. Not much battery capacity till I get some new cells.
I have basically no brakes. The whole hydraulic system needs rebuilding. But, now I have something to motivate me through the winter.

Video works, congrats!

Thanks. It was a fun short drive.
I got my ceramic standoffs for the low speed nichrome resistor.


Now, the brakes use a design from Bendix used in Cushman and ezgo golf carts. The brakes are so small a typical wheel cyl. Wouldn't fit, so it's a whole plate with a bent wheel cyl. As part of it. those should cost me $35 a wheel to rebuild assuming the bore isn't fubar. I can still get whole Assemblies, but they are closer to $150. Let's hope bores are good. I'll have the wheels off soon enough. The master cylinder looks to be from AMC ambassador or gremlin. Somewhere around $50. I'll do those over the winter and be ready for batteries in the spring. I just can't see getting batteries when it's below freezing. It wouldn't get many drives over the winter anyways.

The parking brake needs love. It's so important because there is no trans to have a parking prawl. Its permanent neutral. I don't want to carry wheel chocks everywhere.

[This message has been edited by gen2muchwork (edited 11-18-2017).]

If you're still thinking of finding a modern controller, you might want to keep an eye on EvTradingPost.com. And keep an eye out for someone locally selling an old EV conversion with dead batteries for cheap. I've gotten components for a fraction of their new price this way.

And, at 48v, controllers aren't all that expensive. Buuuuut...if you're remotely thinking of upgrading the battery pack or anything, you don't want to shell out $$ for a 48v controller, then have to buy another to run 72v when you upgrade the batteries. (You can limit the output of a modern controller to 48v, if necessary, while running a higher voltage pack)

A modern controller will give you full torque at low speed, unlike the using a resistor in series, as it sounds like this uses.

HMU if you have questions.

quote Originally posted by Stubby79: If you're still thinking of finding a modern controller, you might want to keep an eye on EvTradingPost.com. And keep an eye out for someone locally selling an old EV conversion with dead batteries for cheap. I've gotten components for a fraction of their new price this way. And, at 48v, controllers aren't all that expensive. Buuuuut...if you're remotely thinking of upgrading the battery pack or anything, you don't want to shell out $$ for a 48v controller, then have to buy another to run 72v when you upgrade the batteries. (You can limit the output of a modern controller to 48v, if necessary, while running a higher voltage pack) A modern controller will give you full torque at low speed, unlike the using a resistor in series, as it sounds like this uses. HMU if you have questions.

Thanks!
For now I'm sticking with FLA and the old school contactor, for no other reason than its neat and archaic. At full/half throttle, the contactors are very efficient, not so much at speed 1 with resistor though.
What will the future hold? Those used chevy volt batteries are pretty close in price to a set of FLA's, if i don't figure the bms, charger , controller. The leaf batteries are not to much more either. I could see myself moving to a modern setup. I like the idea of less weight, more range, and more cycles. What's not to like there? I'm sure in 5 years, it will make plenty of sense to make the move and hopefully I will have acquired all the necessary parts by then. But, I kill the nostalgia of driving it a little, maybe. If I could get 70-80miles range this thing would be significantly more useful. It would be cool to be able to use modern charge stations at 220v and charge faster. The motor should be able to take 72v if used carefully, and may push me towards 40-45 mph. That is really fast for something like this though. I need some drive time to figure out what is best. I'm really green to this EV stuff, but I'm learning fast!

Those chevy volt batteries are all over car-part for $1,500-2,500. The longest one would fit under my seat no problem, with room for maybe 2 more of the small ones in a u shape, even with the cooling intact. Something about sitting on all that lithium, with only plywood and vinyl in between it and my butt freaks me out a little though.

Well, I got in to the rear brakes. They are going to be a bigger problem than I had hoped.
The right rear could be worse, It too was chock full of mud daubers, which may or may not have contributed in the disintegration of the shoes. The brake spider looks like I might be able to rebuild it.




smallest drum ever




Now, the left side... this chunk of metal was floating around. It is a tab from the cast spider that holds the shoe. The whole spider needs replacement. Which are still available, Or I guess I could weld it, but it's cast and has to be pulled to weld it anyways so that seems stupid since it's a brake part.



It's leaky, wet and rusty in here.







Unfortunately, my manual does not get in to detail for the dana axle (used on transitional citicar and comuta car)
Soooo, Best I can tell, the axle needs to be pulled to gain access to the spider. I think the retainer is on the outer bearing, so the whole axle shaft/brakes come out then get pressed apart. I've been told its a similar process to a ford 9" I can still get a retaining ring for this process, although not cheap from ev performance. I'm unsure at this point where to source a seal.

Good news, the fronts are much easier to do when I get there.

Great video! "City car!".