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Time for a semi-general pardon (unbanning banned members)? by Cliff Pennock
Started on: 05-20-2020 08:59 AM
Replies: 86 (1315 views)
Last post by: Patrick on 05-28-2020 07:10 PM
Cliff Pennock
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Report this Post05-20-2020 08:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Over the years, quite a few members have been banned from PFF. Usually because they acted like a-holes and their banning was just. But we really don't know the reason why they behaved as such. Granted, some are simply a-holes at the core. But others might have been in a bad period of their lives. Problem is, a lot of the banned members really knew their stuff about Fieros. And although we can do without their unacceptable behavior, their knowledge is something that is missed.

So I was thinking, maybe it's time to unban some of the banned members (provided they haven't already returned under another user name)? Let them start with a clean slate? You think that's a good idea? Or possibly one of the worst I've ever had?
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Report this Post05-20-2020 09:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good idea as I am sure many of them were voted off the island by the Negative Nellies because they did not agree with "their" views.
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Report this Post05-20-2020 09:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FrenchrafeClick Here to Email FrenchrafeSend a Private Message to FrenchrafeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, this is a good idea. People can evolve, and stop being a-holes with age!

If they restart being insulting, they get banned again! Forever!

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Report this Post05-20-2020 09:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Agreed, the ban-hammer can always be swung again should it need to be. Plus the really bad eggs might not come back anyways due to the indignity of being banned in the first place (the F those guys principle).

So why not?

D
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Habanera Hal
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Report this Post05-20-2020 10:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Habanera HalClick Here to Email Habanera HalSend a Private Message to Habanera HalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Let them come back on a "probation" status.
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Report this Post05-20-2020 10:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jonrevClick Here to visit jonrev's HomePageClick Here to Email jonrevSend a Private Message to jonrevEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Maybe keep the probation group out of the O/T forum where most of the heat seems to radiate.

[This message has been edited by jonrev (edited 05-20-2020).]

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Thunderstruck GT
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Report this Post05-20-2020 11:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:

Good idea as I am sure many of them were voted off the island by the Negative Nellies because they did not agree with "their" views.


Well...…

That didn't take long.
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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post05-20-2020 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd guess that people have been negged long ago by people who forgot that they even did so. There's no pardon because the ratings are "sticky".

I would suggest that each rating be associated with a datestamp. When the rating is more than 6 months old, it should be thrown out.

This way, the ratings system will reflect relatively recent behaviour. As ratings become expired, a member could become unbanned (with email notification).

There could be some ban status threshold like this:
bool ban_status = if(num_non-expired_negs_ratings - num_non-expired_pos_ratings > threshold);

A person could re-rate another member daily (thus preventing their rating from expiring), but at least it would be a conscious decision reflecting the current (not historic) popularity level.
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Report this Post05-20-2020 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey! I want someone on here banned....I keep getting into arguments with him....And whats really frustrating is, I usually LOSE the arguments! (Wouldn't be so bad if I was always WINNING the arguments....)

I think he goes by the name "CVXJET" on here.............
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Report this Post05-20-2020 12:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hnthompsClick Here to Email hnthompsSend a Private Message to hnthompsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This idea is worthy if consideration and the details can be worked out as necessary. If Cliff is willing to do it, why should we complain?

Nelson
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Cliff Pennock
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Report this Post05-20-2020 12:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So… what names come to mind? Suggestions?

Mind you, there are a few people that will *never* be allowed back...
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Report this Post05-20-2020 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I see a lot of people get banned and the reason is never given. Just User Banned under their ratings bar. I saw that Tony Kania got banned. I always thought he was fairly mellow so that was a surprise to me. I am all for giving people a second chance.

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Patrick
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Report this Post05-20-2020 02:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

I saw that Tony Kania got banned. I always thought he was fairly mellow so that was a surprise to me.


... You have got to be kidding.

Some members have been banned for good reason, and should never be allowed to return.

On the other hand, someone like JazzMan was picked on relentlessly by the usual suspects (of that era) until he just snapped and went kind of bonkers... which included him deleting a lot of his very helpful tech posts.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-20-2020).]

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Thunderstruck GT
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Report this Post05-20-2020 03:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

... You have got to be kidding.

Some members have been banned for good reason, and should never be allowed to return.

On the other hand, someone like JazzMan was picked on relentlessly by the usual suspects (of that era) until he just snapped and went kind of bonkers... which included him deleting a lot of his very helpful tech posts.



I can relate.

Remember my Prototype thread?

[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 05-20-2020).]

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Report this Post05-20-2020 04:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You need to just live with the decisions some trolls made. All forums have a similar problem in that a few troublemakers will group up and eff the forum over. Any site that allows members to have people banned just because they mass negged a member has a huge flaw.
The premise is wrong in the OP. People sometimes get banned because of a small group destroys board behavior, blames the person they disagree with and the one person loses by getting banned.
Live with the decision.
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Report this Post05-20-2020 04:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The O/T forum is prob the main reason for people being gone, generally because a few problem posters can't take someone having a diff opinion or dropping truth bombs.
Best thing would be to close that forum.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wftb:
I saw that Tony Kania got banned. [quote]

That will result in a positive for the forum.
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Report this Post05-20-2020 04:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:

Best thing would be to close that (O/T) forum.


As much as I totally agree with the last comment you made, I disagree with this one. Prior to O/T being created (a year or so after PFF started), off topic conversation was messing up the tech threads. There needed to be a place for members to just chat. The problem, as I see it, is that boorish anti-social behavior (whether it's occurring in O/T or elsewhere) is allowed to continue unchecked for far too long before anything is done about it.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-22-2020).]

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Report this Post05-20-2020 08:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From my perspective, the list of people banned that I would like to see back (because they were a great contributor to the forum) is about 1/10th the length of the list of good people that left on their own accord. If the intention is to drive more traffic and activity, I would suggest reaching out to the high posters and contributors from both groups.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-20-2020).]

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Report this Post05-20-2020 08:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

fieroguru

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double post

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-20-2020).]

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Report this Post05-20-2020 09:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Re the O/P... I would tend to disagree with "unbanning". With possibly a few exceptions (which you probably would not agree with.)

Regardless... If this is implemented, there needs to be some accountability. If someone comes back and resumes the "gaping ******* " routine, there needs to be a way to get rid of them quickly.

Conversely...there are some people who still need to be gone (you might be surprised who I might vote off the island), but they are still here.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-23-2020).]

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Report this Post05-20-2020 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Having been around for a few years, a lot of people have come and gone. Some are missed.

I'd say as long as they're not on the "no f'n way" list, un-ban them all.

Let bygones be bygones and hold everyone to the same standard. If they "dont belong" they will e banned again.

my 2 cents

Bob
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Report this Post05-21-2020 01:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

From my perspective, the list of people banned that I would like to see back (because they were a great contributor to the forum) is about 1/10th the length of the list of good people that left on their own accord. If the intention is to drive more traffic and activity, I would suggest reaching out to the high posters and contributors from both groups.



I'll come back start posting again since I can't give you crap on facebook like I do to the rest of the regulars from here.
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Report this Post05-21-2020 02:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:
I'll come back start posting again since I can't give you crap on facebook like I do to the rest of the regulars from here.


Good to see you posting again, even if it is with a non-3800 fiero!
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Report this Post05-21-2020 03:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:

The O/T forum is prob the main reason for people being gone, generally because a few problem posters can't take someone having a diff opinion or dropping truth bombs.
Best thing would be to close that forum.




Cliff I know the T/OT probably drives half your traffic and therefore half your ad revenue, but it really gives PFF a bad reputation. The few times I've looked in there the most vile anti-social things are being discussed and makes me not want to be a part of this forum.

That being said if there is a member that petitions for reinstatement it should be considered. But I would imagine the vast majority have moved on and have no interest in posting again.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 05-21-2020).]

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post05-21-2020 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Good to see you posting again, even if it is with a non-3800 fiero!


Since I've bought this thing I've mentioned your name nearly every time I've talked about fieros to anyone, lol.

FYI LS4 is the long term goal of the new fiero.
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Report this Post05-21-2020 03:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i think that banning should be only for a certain time on first offence. Second offence longer. Third offence permanent.

jmho

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Report this Post05-21-2020 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thing is I never go on off topic and haven't for about 8 years now. So my impression of people is from their posting on Tech chat the mall and the construction zone. Having an off topic section has cost us a lot of people that got PO'd and left on their own accord. People like Blooseberry who can never be replaced.

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Report this Post05-21-2020 08:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nothing needs to change. The forum is fine just like it is. You run your mouth, you pay the price......simple. It's called life.

The contributing members who were worth a damn to the Fiero world all left on their own accord. They weren't banned. People like Madcurl, Troyboy, Infinite Will, and Bloozberry all left because they chose not to deal with the dickheads on here who DON'T get banned.

I don't know of any member who was banned that had such great knowledge of the Fiero that we need them back.
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Patrick
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Report this Post05-21-2020 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Having an off topic section has cost us a lot of people that got PO'd and left on their own accord. People like Blooseberry who can never be replaced.


Sorry, but you've got this particular example completely wrong. Here's my response to what you've posted taken from a five year old thread.

 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

I don't believe that was the problem exactly. I believe Blooz had difficulty accepting the ugliness often exhibited in O/T showing up in the tech threads as well. I'm sure he would've preferred O/T to be a more pleasant environment (as do I), but considering he spent no time in O/T, I suspect it was the extracurricular nonsense in certain tech threads that turned him off.

I'm very disappointed he's left, and I may not even agree that it was the all round best move, but for him it was the correct choice... and I understand and respect his decision.





On the other hand, I agree with the following sentiments 100%!

 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:

The contributing members who were worth a damn to the Fiero world all left on their own accord. They weren't banned. People like Madcurl, Troyboy, Infinite Will, and Bloozberry all left because they chose not to deal with the dickheads on here who DON'T get banned.

I don't know of any member who was banned that had such great knowledge of the Fiero that we need them back.


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Report this Post05-22-2020 06:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofrenzyClick Here to Email fierofrenzySend a Private Message to fierofrenzyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
" Forgive us our trespassers, as we forgive those who trespass against us.... remember that one ?
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Report this Post05-22-2020 10:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jonrevClick Here to visit jonrev's HomePageClick Here to Email jonrevSend a Private Message to jonrevEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
O/T doesn't need to go away but a moratorium on the political bile that's infested it for years would be an improvement in the long run.
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Report this Post05-22-2020 10:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is nothing wrong with the way it is set up now.
Leave it alone.
If we want banned members back, we will drop our negs and Cliff can invite them back via an email.
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Report this Post05-22-2020 11:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My answer to Cliff's question would depend on who is being unbanned, and why. There are certain people whom I think should never be allowed back here. There are others who were run off, simply because "the clique" didn't like them. Those are two very different things.

IMO, the elephant in the room is the ratings system itself. Long-term members (like myself) have amassed hundreds of ratings. The forum population nowadays is low enough that members like me cannot be banned via "brute force" ratings. It's mathematically impossible. The "speed-ban" mechanic seems to be a band-aid for that. But even the speed-ban can be problematic.

So what am I getting at? Perhaps a ratings system reset is in order. And maybe adjust the "trigger levels" of the algorithm to match the current forum population.
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Report this Post05-22-2020 12:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There hasn't been any moderation in the forum since I've been around. Allowing posters to have an active role in banning people is madness. People can create multiple usernames to neg others. Personality disorders can't be removed from the process of negging people.

I support the statements of others who cited those valuable contributors who left because there wasn't moderation.
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Report this Post05-22-2020 12:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jessesmith121Click Here to Email jessesmith121Send a Private Message to jessesmith121Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would say... Let them back... Unless they stole from a member... But an argument... meh... people change
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Cliff Pennock
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Report this Post05-22-2020 01:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff PennockClick Here to visit Cliff Pennock's HomePageClick Here to Email Cliff PennockSend a Private Message to Cliff PennockEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Let me start by saying two things:

  1. The rating system will not go away
  2. TO/T will not change


Rating system: It works. It actually works perfectly. I know that since its inception, people have been claiming members can be and have been banned by other members ganging up. And my response every single time has been: not only is it pretty much impossible, I have also never even seen it attempted. Mind you, every single ban is double checked by me. I can see exactly who and how people rate others. And never have I seen anything that even comes close to "ganging up". Also, the rating system is in no way protecting you from being banned. You can have 100% positive ratings and you can still be banned. There are tons of examples of that.

TO/T: I don't understand why anything that happens there, reflects in any way, good or bad, on the rest of the forum. As far as I can see, rivalries there don't bleed over to the other sections. It in fact it keeps the other sections clean. Which is exactly why TO/T exists in the first place.

Back on topic, I do think people can change over time. If there's one flaw in the rating system, is that ratings stick. Ratings do not in any way reflect what the current batch of active members feel about other members. You can have 100 negative ratings, and 100 positive ratings. If those 100 negative ratings are from members who haven't been active in years, while the 100 positive ratings are all from active members, than that person should have a 100% positive rating. So yes, maybe ratings should "fall off" after a certain amount of time, good or bad. Or maybe just the ratings from members who haven't been active in the past year should disappear.
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Report this Post05-22-2020 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cliff, your last couple of sentences in the above post have some good ideas.

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 05-22-2020).]

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Report this Post05-22-2020 04:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:


TO/T: I don't understand why anything that happens there, reflects in any way, good or bad, on the rest of the forum. As far as I can see, rivalries there don't bleed over to the other sections. It in fact it keeps the other sections clean. Which is exactly why TO/T exists in the first place.



With all due respect, I believe the ad revenue in T/OT has blinded you to how vile it has become. It reflects badly on the entire forum. You can't build a mansion over pile of sewage and not expect it to devalue the property. It's your forum, do as you please, but also recognize many have left of their own accord, in part because of the bad behavior cultivated in T/OT.
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css9450
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Report this Post05-22-2020 04:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for css9450Click Here to Email css9450Send a Private Message to css9450Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by jscott1:

With all due respect, I believe the ad revenue in T/OT has blinded you to how vile it has become. It reflects badly on the entire forum.


It is probably worth mentioning that the other 99.99% of forums in the world don't have the "anything goes" kind of off-topic section like the one here. No politics allowed, no religion allowed. However, enforcing that rule is a ton or work. Like a 24/7 job.

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Blacktree
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Report this Post05-22-2020 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by jscott1: ...but also recognize many have left of their own accord, in part because of the bad behavior cultivated in T/OT.

IMO, that is the real tragedy. When I commented earlier about people being run off by "the clique", I was referring to that. The people being run off aren't (for the most part) being banned. They're leaving in disgust, because of the nasty treatment they receive from "the clique" in O/T.

If this phenomenon continues, the website will continue losing viewers until there's nobody left except "the clique" and some people who they tolerate. In a time when web forums are losing viewers to social media outlets, the last thing a forum needs is a hostile atmosphere.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 05-22-2020).]

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