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What are some facts or cool stories I could use for Fiero history by Thedugshow
Started on: 11-28-2017 03:54 PM
Replies: 62 (1068 views)
Last post by: FieroLost on 01-02-2018 08:24 PM
Thedugshow
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Report this Post11-28-2017 03:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ThedugshowClick Here to Email ThedugshowSend a Private Message to ThedugshowEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey guys been working away at my Fiero videos and was gonna make a history of the Fiero video. Started doing some research n reading old articles and what not and figured just asking on here would be good spot too for info. So what are some cool stories, facts or general trivia any of you got off the top ff your head you don't mind. Just looking for some cool things to talk about for the video.

Thanks
-dug
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Report this Post11-28-2017 04:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The green ones all caught fire.
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Report this Post11-28-2017 04:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Maybe lay truth or lay to rest the whole Lotus involvement in the project thing. The Fiero supposedly has an Esprit part in the suspension and I have read somewhere that Lotus might have helped somehow. But GM didn't buy Lotus until much after the Fiero was made. They could still have consulted Lotus Engineering as that is what Lotus does, they provide services to other manufacturers. But I found both people dismissing it and people saying Lotus indeed was involved somehow while reading very old posts.
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Report this Post11-28-2017 06:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mrfred8Click Here to visit mrfred8's HomePageSend a Private Message to mrfred8Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:

Maybe lay truth or lay to rest the whole Lotus involvement in the project thing. The Fiero supposedly has an Esprit part in the suspension and I have read somewhere that Lotus might have helped somehow. But GM didn't buy Lotus until much after the Fiero was made. They could still have consulted Lotus Engineering as that is what Lotus does, they provide services to other manufacturers. But I found both people dismissing it and people saying Lotus indeed was involved somehow while reading very old posts.


I think I take Hulki's word that Lotus had no involvement. The video is on youtube.

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Report this Post11-28-2017 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Lotus had zero involvement n the Fiero.....But, the Lotus Espirt and the Fiero both use German GM(Opel) front suspension PIECES.....The difference was in how they were mounted.....Lotus knew what they were doing and GM- at the time- Did not have a clue about sports car handling.

Later on (1986) GM bought Lotus, then sold them(1993), but did learn something from the company- hence the newer Camaro and Vette working so well at the Ring, etc.

Please also understand that GM owning Lotus in 1986 would have had very little to no influence on ANY car before probably 1990....Lead time is involved here.....

Lotus was previously in a partnership with Toyota, hence the MR2 suspension did have Lotus involvement.....
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Report this Post11-28-2017 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin87FieroGTSend a Private Message to Kevin87FieroGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It’s a mid engine car, not rear engine like the Corvair. Drives like a go cart. Has a small gas tank, no range. Needs an LS3!

Waiting for the Fiero follow on... the mid engine Vette.

[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 11-28-2017).]

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Report this Post11-28-2017 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Kevin87FieroGT:. Has a small gas tank, no range.



What is the range for the V6 or a 3800 SC?

About the Lotus involvement, even if GM didn't own Lotus when they developed the Fiero, they could still pay for their consulting. There were 3 Lotus companies which are related but somewhat independent. Lotus Cars which makes the cars, Lotus Racing, the racing team and Lotus Engineering, which is a consulting and development company which has developed and helped with several cars for different manufacturers. GM being totally green with a mid engine sports car, it would have been smart for them to pay Lotus Engineering for consulting and help. Not saying it happened. Just saying that they didn't need to own it for that to happen. GM had enough cash to buy Lotus Engineering services if they had enough cash to buy Lotus Cars.
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Report this Post11-28-2017 08:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Thedugshow:

Hey guys been working away at my Fiero videos and was gonna make a history of the Fiero video. Started doing some research n reading old articles and what not and figured just asking on here would be good spot too for info. So what are some cool stories, facts or general trivia any of you got off the top ff your head you don't mind. Just looking for some cool things to talk about for the video.

Thanks
-dug


Talk about how Corvette and its employees killed the Fiero
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Kevin87FieroGT
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Report this Post11-28-2017 09:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin87FieroGTSend a Private Message to Kevin87FieroGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rn2016:


What is the range for the V6 or a 3800 SC?

With the 2.8L V-6 about 280 miles before the tank gets pretty dry. 12.5 gal. tank (approx.)

The 3.8L is ??

[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 11-28-2017).]

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Report this Post11-28-2017 11:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As I recall from Hulki's speech at the 20th...
The only involvement GM had with Lotus was when GM noticed how nice the Lotus paint jobs were. They wondered what they needed to do, in order to achieve such a nice finish.
Once they visited Lotus, and discovered that all of the cars were, essentially, hand built, they gave up on that idea.
Lotus had nothing - zip, zero, nada - to do with the Fiero suspension. All of the green and gold "Handling by Lotus" emblems that you see, from time to time, were actually affixed to the Isuzu Impulses of similar/later vintage.
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Report this Post11-29-2017 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Harold James KieClick Here to Email Harold James KieSend a Private Message to Harold James KieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Mary T. Barra was the electrical engineer for the design team of the Fiero. She later became the CEO of GM.
Carrie, from "King of Queens" drove a Fiero when she first dated Doug.
There were fewer fires with Fiero's than there were for Mercedes during the same period.
I beat a Porsche 911 Carrera from a stop light when I was driving my 1986 Fiero Gt. The driver of the Porsche came along side of me and revved his engine as he looked over at me. I pretended to be searching for a station on the radio but was actually leaning so I could watch the stop light from the side direction. I had my right foot on the gas, my left foot on the clutch and brake and when I saw the yellow I counted down and nailed it just as the green light appeared. He was caught sleeping and caught me at the next light and laughed and admitted that I had psyched him out. He was a good sport about it. I outran a Honda CRX on PCH one time and the driver went passed me when I stopped at a store and he yelled a lot of obscenities at me. I guess he had a damaged ego. I got a ticket one time for doing 100+ on the freeway while I was racing another Fiero. I had to appear in Downey court but luck was on my side as the judge let me go with only paying the $26 court fee because he found my story of how I got hooked up in the whole thing "interesting" yet "amusing".
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Report this Post11-29-2017 05:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

As I recall from Hulki's speech at the 20th...
The only involvement GM had with Lotus was when GM noticed how nice the Lotus paint jobs were. They wondered what they needed to do, in order to achieve such a nice finish.
Once they visited Lotus, and discovered that all of the cars were, essentially, hand built, they gave up on that idea.
Lotus had nothing - zip, zero, nada - to do with the Fiero suspension. All of the green and gold "Handling by Lotus" emblems that you see, from time to time, were actually affixed to the Isuzu Impulses of similar/later vintage.


Good story about the painting. Sounds like the bean counters at GM for sure.

About Lotus actual involvement we may never know as corporate stuff is normally clouted in mystery with several NDAs drawn by legal departments. But the fact GM indeed reached out to Lotus for something already makes the possibility of it being more than just painting tips higher. For some in the Fiero team, not admitting to help may be caused by legal concern or even pride. Maybe it will come out at a later date. Maybe it never will because Lotus didn't help. But just because it hasn't come out yet doesn't mean it didn't happen. Talking about Lotus, while they were still selling the Esprit V8 they never admitted to its faults. Even years after it was discontinued the team involved would still not admit. Then one day a high up employee in the team, I believe after he was already retired finally admitted. Paraphrasing: "Ok, yes, we ruined the car. The V8 ruined it. It made it unbalanced. We were basically pressured into putting a V8 in there for marketing reasons.". You never really know when it comes to corporate secrets.
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Report this Post11-29-2017 05:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Rn2016

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quote
Originally posted by Kevin87FieroGT:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rn2016:


What is the range for the V6 or a 3800 SC?

With the 2.8L V-6 about 280 miles before the tank gets pretty dry. 12.5 gal. tank (approx.)



That's not that bad. Thanks for the info.

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Report this Post11-29-2017 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
First thing to do is get the facts and all the info to back them up. Documentation to back them up is important in this day of anything goes on the web.

The first fact is Lotus did not have one damn thing to do with the Fiero Suspension.

GM designed the new suspension and it had been in the works since the very start of the program. It is what they wanted in the first place but just did not have money for it.

Hulki has stated this and the other source was Engineer Tom Goad in High Performance Pontiac.

Tom also went on to state that the 88 Suspension while GM designed was sent to Porsche Engineering to have it tuned for turn in and scrub radius. Porsche engineering is not the car division but a division that does outside work along with internal work for Porsche. They wanted the feel of a 911 and who better to do so.

To back this up there were two 2.9 Turbo Fieros built late 84 that had tail lights that would light up and say Porsche Eater when the brakes were on. GM stated they had to be removed when GM was doing work with Porsche in 1985 as not to insult the Porsche engineers. This never made sense till the Goad statement was published. The tail light removal story is in the WItzenburg Fiero book.

Note the advance time on the car was the work began on the 88-90 models back in 84. I have a blue print of the emblem for 1990 dated 1985 so they were working that far ahead.

Yes it is true the Corvette people were behind the Fiero being shut down. But this also must be tempered with the fact that Pontiac took many risk and pretty much set themselves up for the Corvette people having the reasons to shut them down. The major mistake of going to the Pontiac plant and not having anything to share the line really hurt. Pontiac had to over build the car for several years and then when the GM 80 program was canceled it opened the door for the Corvette people to show the plant was way under capacity at a time GM already was losing greats mounts of money.

The fact is the death of the Fiero has so many things to it that you can not answer it in a paragraph or short Video.

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Report this Post11-29-2017 12:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hyperv6- some really good info!

I wanted to add, there can be no question that Car & Drivel magazine did absolutely everything to kill it.....The first year they put the Fiero in their 1984 "10 best cars", but every year after there were big improvements in the Fiero, yet C&D's rating went down-down-down, culminating in the comparo test of the 88 Formula vs a CRX Si and a MR2.....C&D; "The Fiero is hugely improved..." Placed #3...and they rated the CRX as #1; "Body like Daryl Hannah"....!? In detail, the only real complaints against the Fiero in that test were the "Steering is heavy" and the "instruments are pointed at your navel" and YET; They stated - On the CRX- that no matter how much you adjusted the seat and wheel, you needed simian arms to reach the wheel! (The Fiero absolutely toasted the other 2 on the track!)

Considering that MT and R&T both raved about the 85 GT when it came out, then later started complaining about it in every test- including the 1988- it is VERY obvious that the 3 magazines were definitely getting a substantial amount of "Advertising revenue" from, mainly Toyota, but also Honda (The CRX....REALLY!?).....After they killed the Fiero, C&D started to complain about the MR2's DTO dangers.....I would suspect that Toyota didn't need someone telling people how perfect it was once there was no competitor out there........

As far as the Corvette people killing the Fiero; I don't doubt there was some.....Friction there.....But it saddens me that corporate idiots can't understand that not everyone wants the "Ultimate weapon" corvette..("I am the fastest man on earth!!!")....There should be room down below for a small fun car that has accessible performance.....Like the Fiero, the MR2, the N/A RX7s, the Miata, etc....Not everyone needs a 4 second 0-60......

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 11-29-2017).]

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quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

There should be room down below for a small fun car that has accessible performance.....Like the Fiero, the MR2, the N/A RX7s, the Miata, etc....Not everyone needs a 4 second 0-60......



I am really glad you put the "N/A" in N/A RX7s cvx .

-Van
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Report this Post11-29-2017 02:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

As far as the Corvette people killing the Fiero; I don't doubt there was some.....Friction there.....But it saddens me that corporate idiots can't understand that not everyone wants the "Ultimate weapon" corvette.


I will have to disagree with Corvette being the ultimate anything. Not in the car world and not in the world of U.S. cars either. 1989 Turbo Trans Am kicked the Vette's butt. Viper kicks the Vette's butt. Pretty much any comparable European sports car kicks the Vette's butt. I'm pretty sure had GM not handicapped the Fiero to protect the Corvette the Fiero would also have kicked the Vette's butt. And having worked in the car manufacturing industry and knowing how things can go, I have no doubt in my mind or heart that the Corvette division indeed must have done all they could to kill the Fiero project.

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Report this Post11-29-2017 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by hyperv6:

Tom also went on to state that the 88 Suspension while GM designed was sent to Porsche Engineering to have it tuned for turn in and scrub radius. Porsche engineering is not the car division but a division that does outside work along with internal work for Porsche.


Yep. They are in the same line of business as Lotus Engineering, pretty much.


 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:They wanted the feel of a 911 and who better to do so.


Now why would anybody want a good sports car to handle like a Porsche 911 from the 80's? Did the idea to have the mid engine Fiero handling like the butt heavy rear engine 911 come from the Corvette division as part of their plan to kill the Fiero?

Should have gone with Lotus instead and maybe they did in the end. Might be why the Fiero doesn't have a tendency to sit butt first in ditches and never got the nick name "Widowmaker".

Circulating back to Lotus, I read somewhere the Esprit used Fiero headlight lifting motors too. The bloodline connections are all over. It's clear GM had a relationship with Lotus from before they bought them. Why do you think Lotus went first to GM when they decided to sell? Supposedly Ford was interested but had no crack at it. They had been interested in acquiring prestige and niche European brands, which they finally did when they bought Aston Martin and Jaguar. But Lotus went straight to GM, which snapped it.

[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 11-29-2017).]

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Report this Post11-29-2017 02:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:


Now why would anybody want a good sports car to handle like a Porsche 911 from the 80's? Did the idea to have the mid engine Fiero handling like the butt heavy rear engine 911 come from the Corvette division as part of their plan to kill the Fiero?

Should have gone with Lotus instead and maybe they did in the end. Might be why the Fiero doesn't have a tendency to sit butt first in ditches and never got the nick name "Widowmaker".

Circulating back to Lotus, I read somewhere the Esprit used Fiero headlight lifting motors too. The bloodline connections are all over. It's clear GM had a relationship with Lotus from before they bought them. Why do you think Lotus went first to GM when they decided to sell? Supposedly Ford was interested but had no crack at it. They had been interested in acquiring prestige and niche European brands, which they finally did when they bought Aston Martin and Jaguar. But Lotus went straight to GM, which snapped it.



Trust me I am not a 911 fan but I have a lot of miles in one in various places. I never got it till I drove from San Diego to San Fran up the PCH and back on the 5 in California. While true the drop throttle is there in the rear the steering feel up front is spot on. You can really feel the tires and what they are doing and this is what GM was looking for.

I noted with the 911 it makes going stupid fast fell slow. This I have noted in many modern cars today. You can go at a speed that feels fast and you look and you are over 45-50 MPH faster than you think you are. On the other hand my Fiero on a back road makes you work to go fast and often you are 30 MPH slower than what you think. Smooth tracks not so much but uneven pavement you feel the extra work. Even driving mine to Indy for Fiero meets my arms are feeling it by the time I hit 500 miles. Note it is 500 miles exact from my drive to the speed way museum. the bump steer on I 70 can make you work even to keep it in a straight line with low profile tires.

Yes the Lotus did use the motors but so did the TA . Lotus also used the air bag from the Bird too. GM was just parts bin shopping the parts to a company that could not afford to make their own. The Lotus was still using Toyota Tail lamps too at the time.

The companies back then were all wanting to buy the struggling sports car names for image and then they found out they were money pits. GM only did benefit by Lotus engineering and they did help on some engine things over the year. The Ecotec turbo has Lotus and Saab work in it. It is the reason I got 23 PSI boost out of mine on pump gas and 300 HP.

GM dumped Lotus as they got tires of not making any money on the cars and the Engineering arm was having trouble drawing in customer when GM owned it. GM sold it to cut the losses. It was cheaper to pay for the work than own them.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 11-29-2017).]

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Report this Post11-29-2017 03:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Hyperv6- some really good info!

I wanted to add, there can be no question that Car & Drivel magazine did absolutely everything to kill it.....The first year they put the Fiero in their 1984 "10 best cars", but every year after there were big improvements in the Fiero, yet C&D's rating went down-down-down, culminating in the comparo test of the 88 Formula vs a CRX Si and a MR2.....C&D; "The Fiero is hugely improved..." Placed #3...and they rated the CRX as #1; "Body like Daryl Hannah"....!? In detail, the only real complaints against the Fiero in that test were the "Steering is heavy" and the "instruments are pointed at your navel" and YET; They stated - On the CRX- that no matter how much you adjusted the seat and wheel, you needed simian arms to reach the wheel! (The Fiero absolutely toasted the other 2 on the track!)

Considering that MT and R&T both raved about the 85 GT when it came out, then later started complaining about it in every test- including the 1988- it is VERY obvious that the 3 magazines were definitely getting a substantial amount of "Advertising revenue" from, mainly Toyota, but also Honda (The CRX....REALLY!?).....After they killed the Fiero, C&D started to complain about the MR2's DTO dangers.....I would suspect that Toyota didn't need someone telling people how perfect it was once there was no competitor out there........

As far as the Corvette people killing the Fiero; I don't doubt there was some.....Friction there.....But it saddens me that corporate idiots can't understand that not everyone wants the "Ultimate weapon" corvette..("I am the fastest man on earth!!!")....There should be room down below for a small fun car that has accessible performance.....Like the Fiero, the MR2, the N/A RX7s, the Miata, etc....Not everyone needs a 4 second 0-60......



My insider told me even if the Fiero had lived it may have only had a couple years to survive. So many sports cars in this era died at 5-8 years. Limited markets with low prices make it hard to update and invest in these cars as they make so little money.

The Miata only survived due to the fact of the wide appeal to a large demo and global sales with limited sales in each market. Combined they make money but even then Mazda had to share the platform with FCA for the Fiat.

He told me that Pontiac did what they wanted the Fiero to do. It brought many people into the show room and help turn the Grand Am into a sales hero. At the time Pontiac was on the chopping block and the increase of sales of the Grand Am and the failure of the Cutlass RWD going away swapped Pontiac for Olds on the chopping block.

To outline how bad things were at GM was the fact even the Corvette was killed. Yes it was killed and only because their manager ignored his managers at the cost of his future at GM do we have a Corvette today.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/...297778068758582.html

There is so much not known outside GM that changes the whole story on the how and whys many things took place inside GM that we may never know. There was a lot of crap that went on per my insiders. For published example read Bob Lutz book Bean Counters Vs Car Guys and even Deloreans book On a Clear Day You can See GM. both books are of different eras but outline the real problems and the flawed thinking. This is why the culture change we have seen at GM since Lutz arrived and carried on since by Mary Barra have been so important.

The magazines while not good PR they did not kill the Fiero. GM is what killed the Fiero and how they operated. Pontiac just took so many risk and made some poor decision due to the lack of GM support that it gave the Corvette guys all they needed to kill the car. Pontiac also had a new manager that had no love for the Fiero too. It was not a Losh car and he was not really a die hard car guy.

Pontiac got to the point where when Lutz arrived they had a Aztek but no RWD car and claimed to be the performance division? Lutz tried to make Pontiac relevant again but it was already too late. The GTO had too little funding. Yes it did not have hood scoops and duel exhaust in 04 as there was not enough money. This was told to me by Fred Simmons Of Pontiac. He told me if they had given me the money we would have had them. The Solstice came along too late. By the time Pontiac was killed sales were in decline. The G8 never had enough time to do its job either. The problem was there was nothing Chevy or Buick could do that Pontiac at a much higher cost would do.

Pontiac really started to die in 1979 when the Pontiac V8 was killed (301 dose not count) and to be honest the Fiero was the last true Pontiac as it was never shared and it even had a Pontiac based engine.

Multiple divisions today and the high development cost have made having so many models pointless anymore unless you can get a high price for them. There is just not as much money after you spend more money to make them.


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Report this Post11-29-2017 03:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:


I will have to disagree with Corvette being the ultimate anything. Not in the car world and not in the world of U.S. cars either. 1989 Turbo Trans Am kicked the Vette's butt. Viper kicks the Vette's butt. Pretty much any comparable European sports car kicks the Vette's butt. I'm pretty sure had GM not handicapped the Fiero to protect the Corvette the Fiero would also have kicked the Vette's butt. And having worked in the car manufacturing industry and knowing how things can go, I have no doubt in my mind or heart that the Corvette division indeed must have done all they could to kill the Fiero project.


Performance aside, the Corvette people were pissed because Pontiac did what the people wanted but Corvette refused to do. Make a true mid-engine sports car and it just happen to come in at 1/2 the price of the Vette so it sold well for what it was.

I also believe Corvette saw a V8 in the Fiero's future and knew they couldn't let that happen.

Just think of the sales hit Corvette would have taken if the Fiero had POWER.
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Report this Post11-29-2017 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 1984 Fiero Sport Coupe, also referred to as the "base car", came with the M-19 four-speed manual with a 0.81 top gear along with 4.10:1 differential, giving it better acceleration at the cost of fuel economy, 42/26 mpg. The Fiero Coupe, also called "Fuel Economy Leader", came with the MY-8 4-speed manual transaxle that had a 0.73 overdrive top gear along with a high mpg 3.32:1 axel ratio. This gave it an EPA highway/city rating of 50/31 mpg.

Better than many cars today, 30 years later.

The Pontiac Fiero, being popularly known as being "made entirely of fiberglass," is wrongly accused of being unsafe in a collision.

The Fiero, with its unique plastic body-on-spaceframe design, helped the Fiero achieve a NHTSA NCAP frontal crash test rating of five stars, the highest rating available.

The Fiero was the second safest vehicle sold in America from 1984 to 1988, bested by the Volvo 740DL station wagon.

The production of the 1984 model ran from July 1983 until almost the end of 1984, this resulted in Pontiac exceeding its first year goal of 80,000 units, which was 28,000 more 2-seaters anyone had sold before in the US, by about 56,000 cars.
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Report this Post11-29-2017 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This guide, until there is another version released, has the most up to date info today.

"NIFE Fiero Enthusiasts Guide:
2013 Version 3.0
The most in-depth comprehensive documented information on the Stock Fiero presently available in an 8.5"x11" spiral bound book. An exclusive publication of NIFE that features what every Fiero Enthusiast needs to know about the Pontiac Fiero with more information in one publication than any other publication available on the market today.
Over 45 pages of:
1. Up todate Fiero Facts
2. Fiero Statistics
3. Specifications
4. Highlights of each year Fiero
5. Detailed year-by-year Fiero information
6. Over 14 pages of Full-color graphics including over 130 color images
http://fierofocus.com/store.html
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Report this Post11-29-2017 05:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Another Pontiac that Car & Drivel crapped on; The GTO.......ALL of the mags (Including C&D) took GM to task for not bringing their great Australian RWD cars here, yet when they finally brought over the Holden Monaro as the GTO, C&D compared it to the new Mustang....And picked the MUSTANG!!!

I'm not bagging on the 2005 Mustang- huge improvement over the previous generation- but the Monaro/GTO compared favorably to BMWs and such...It truthfully was a whole rung higher in the market than the Mustang- That is why it was more expensive.....

As far as Corvettes...Well, every year, C&D has their Lightning lap testing, and in 2016 the Corvette Grand Sport (460 hp, 3500 lbs) was almost as quick as the 911 GT3 RS around VIR.....MUCH faster than the Lexus LFA, the GT-R, the new NSX, the Huracan LP610-4 and the McLaren 570S.......

One of the smartest things GM/Chevy/Vette team did was back when designing the C-5, instead of just consulting Vette fanatics, they asked OTHER sports car owners what they did NOT like about the C-4 Vette.....And then fixed most of those problems- Especially visibility (No longer pearing over a tall hood) and easier accessability, and better ride.
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Report this Post11-29-2017 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
There is so much not known outside GM that changes the whole story on the how and whys many things took place inside GM that we may never know.



Exactly!

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Report this Post11-29-2017 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:


Performance aside, the Corvette people were pissed because Pontiac did what the people wanted but Corvette refused to do. Make a true mid-engine sports car and it just happen to come in at 1/2 the price of the Vette so it sold well for what it was.

I also believe Corvette saw a V8 in the Fiero's future and knew they couldn't let that happen.

Just think of the sales hit Corvette would have taken if the Fiero had POWER.


Yes it would have been the death of the Corvette. Even the Fiero being what it was, compare the piece of junk and prehistoric outdated car that was the C4 Vette when the Fiero was in production and the Fiero still comes out on top besides horse power numbers. But the Vette had over twice the displacement while making 90hp more than the V6. The Corvette was just the same old and tired American formula from the time while the Fiero was daring and innovative. The Corvette division had all the reasons to be wetting their pants because of the Fiero's potential.

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Report this Post11-29-2017 06:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

As far as Corvettes...Well, every year, C&D has their Lightning lap testing, and in 2016 the Corvette Grand Sport (460 hp, 3500 lbs) was almost as quick as the 911 GT3 RS around VIR.....MUCH faster than the Lexus LFA, the GT-R, the new NSX, the Huracan LP610-4 and the McLaren 570S........


Faster where? In a straight line?
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Report this Post11-29-2017 07:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Pick up a copy of C&D lightning lap issue (Every October) and they have a complete list of their lap times around Virginia International Raceway....To give you an idea of how accurate the times are, they lapped a 911 Carrera S, then they took a much lower power/weight ratio Cayman S and laid the same time...So 2-3 other drivers took the 911 out and could not better the time, which was 3:05.8......So I think their times are pretty good.....The new ZO6 (2015) laid down a 2:44.6, and then the 2016 GS Vette laid down a 2:47.1....The LFA; 2:55.1, the Best GT-R; 2:49.4, the Lambo Huracan LP610-4; 2:47.5, and the same year (As the GS Vette) 911 GT3 RS beat the GS by 1/10 of a second.....

The C4 was an absolute PI-O-LA, but the C5, and C6 were quantum leaps, and the C7, although uglier than sin, is another leap in performance......If they took the GS Vette and just installed some of those carbon-fiber wheels like on the Shelby GT-350, I think they would approach the Z06 time but with the N/A 460 HP engine.....Of course, they could then install those wheels on the ZO6, and get a better time there.also.....(Cars that beat the 2015 ZO6 at VIR; Porsche 918(2:43.1), 2016 Viper ACR (2:44.2)....And a Lexus race car they tested but does not count as a production car (2:43.2)...

The Vette/Chevy engineers have come a long way from the bad old C4 age.....They do constant testing at the Ring and have built a track that copies a lot of the "Bad" features of the ring for testing at home.
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Report this Post11-30-2017 12:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Before you trash the C4 too much , yes it pales today but it was a quantum leap over the C3 at the time.

Each Vette since has been a incremental improvment over the other. But even the c5-7 were produced in tough times with GM still going broke.

The Corvette people were not upset on the mid engine they were just worried about lost sales that would have doomed them. It was all about survival nothing more. They could have done the mid engine several times but passed on it.

The bottom line like John Schinella states Chevy sells more cars so Chevy gets more say in GM.

The F body died due to GM going broke and a platform that would not meet new crash standards.

The GTO failed on two fronts the car looked old because the styling down under was years behind ours. Lutz had no money for new body panels over what they did change.

The other issue was they targeted the market for the mid west and demand was stronger on the west coast. Dealers gouging did not help either.

But the real fact is the Corvette almost died on its own and odds are good GM would have killed the Fiero too since it had more enemies inside and much less heritage.

The bottom line was GM had marketing people in charge that sold cookies not car people.

If Lutz had arrived 10 years before he may have saved them product wise but management wise they were struggling yet. Lutz referred to them as the people who were the problem.
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Report this Post11-30-2017 01:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Way too smart there, Hyper! Yes, I remember the time when they basically cancelled the new Vette......It's amazing what "pencil-pushing", limo-riding financial guys think about as far as cars are concerned....We WILL be consigned to riding in computer-controlled pods...soon or later.....Simply put, 75% of the drivers out there should not be allowed to play with matchbox cars- let alone drive anything!

Fact is, we were very lucky to even get the Fiero.....And right after the Fiero died, the RX7 , ZX and Supra went way up market.....The in-expensive 2 seat market flooded, and then died. Sadly, a lot of automotive decisions are made just because of money......Still, I have always been impressed with mass-produced cars that anyone can afford, vs super-expensive cars assembled out of "Un-obtainium"....A Ferrari 308 cost a bundle just to maintain, while a Fiero is far more comfortable and costs almost nothing to drive daily!

At one time I was really hooked on the Countach.....Then I found out you could not see out of it, could not hardly breath in it on a hot day, and it is assembled like an expensive- but very low-quality- Kit car! The last straw for me was when they installed all of the tacked-on scoops, flairs, wings etc...It looked like an escapee from a J C Whitney catalog! Blech! If you pay $100,000-PLUS for a car, it should have fenders DESIGNED to fit the wide tires installed from the factory- not tack-ons!

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 11-30-2017).]

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Report this Post11-30-2017 06:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:We WILL be consigned to riding in computer-controlled pods...soon or later.....Simply put, 75% of the drivers out there should not be allowed to play with matchbox cars- let alone drive anything!



100% agree with you!

 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:Fact is, we were very lucky to even get the Fiero.....And right after the Fiero died, the RX7 , ZX and Supra went way up market.....The in-expensive 2 seat market flooded, and then died. Sadly, a lot of automotive decisions are made just because of money......Still, I have always been impressed with mass-produced cars that anyone can afford, vs super-expensive cars assembled out of "Un-obtainium"....A Ferrari 308 cost a bundle just to maintain, while a Fiero is far more comfortable and costs almost nothing to drive daily!



If one can afford it, I see the value of low production hand made exotics. For starters you won't see one in every corner and more importantly because it's less accessible, less of those 75% people we speak above will get their hands on one. So the car doesn't pick up an undeserved reputation because every idiot can afford one. Not saying people with money are better drivers. But we have way less people with money than without. So it's a matter of sheer numbers.

Also, expensive cars get things cheap ones never will. Not always but finishing, fitting and tech is way better in expensive cars. Since we are talking about the Corvette and you mentioned J C Whitney, sitting in a Corvette, any of them including any of the C7 after having been in a new Italian sports car or Aston Martin makes you think the Corvette interior was all bought at J C Whitney or made by Fisher Price. Money buys nicer things. It's just a fact of life and the Corvette is cheap.

 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:At one time I was really hooked on the Countach.....Then I found out you could not see out of it, could not hardly breath in it on a hot day, and it is assembled like an expensive- but very low-quality- Kit car! The last straw for me was when they installed all of the tacked-on scoops, flairs, wings etc...It looked like an escapee from a J C Whitney catalog! Blech! If you pay $100,000-PLUS for a car, it should have fenders DESIGNED to fit the wide tires installed from the factory- not tack-ons!



I again agree. My favorite Countach is the LP400. Or the LP500 which had wide wheel arches but they were still rounded. With the LP 5000 and Anniversary it got too tacky for me too.

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Report this Post11-30-2017 06:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Pick up a copy of C&D lightning lap issue (Every October) and they have a complete list of their lap times around Virginia International Raceway....To give you an idea of how accurate the times are, they lapped a 911 Carrera S, then they took a much lower power/weight ratio Cayman S and laid the same time...So 2-3 other drivers took the 911 out and could not better the time, which was 3:05.8......So I think their times are pretty good.....The new ZO6 (2015) laid down a 2:44.6, and then the 2016 GS Vette laid down a 2:47.1....The LFA; 2:55.1, the Best GT-R; 2:49.4, the Lambo Huracan LP610-4; 2:47.5, and the same year (As the GS Vette) 911 GT3 RS beat the GS by 1/10 of a second.....

The C4 was an absolute PI-O-LA, but the C5, and C6 were quantum leaps, and the C7, although uglier than sin, is another leap in performance......If they took the GS Vette and just installed some of those carbon-fiber wheels like on the Shelby GT-350, I think they would approach the Z06 time but with the N/A 460 HP engine.....Of course, they could then install those wheels on the ZO6, and get a better time there.also.....(Cars that beat the 2015 ZO6 at VIR; Porsche 918(2:43.1), 2016 Viper ACR (2:44.2)....And a Lexus race car they tested but does not count as a production car (2:43.2)...

The Vette/Chevy engineers have come a long way from the bad old C4 age.....They do constant testing at the Ring and have built a track that copies a lot of the "Bad" features of the ring for testing at home.


I have never been to the Virginia International Raceway or even heard of it before. But looking at a map of the circuit it looks like a pretty open track. Lot's of straights and semi straights stretches where hp matters more than handling. It has one good set of curves around what seems to be called the Horseshoe. Compared to curvy F1 tracks such as Suzuka, Monaco, Interlagos, Spa-Francorchamps or even Silverstone it looks to be more tailor fit to the type of car the Corvette is. European cars are normally developed to tackle a tight circuit. I can't see a C7 out handling a McLaren, Ferrari or 918 in a tight circuit. So I can't see it being faster there.

But beating any Lambo is hardly anything to brag about. They have always sucked as track cars. They are for show supercars. There is a reason why the holy trinity of supercars has been McLaren, Ferrari and Porsche for ages now and not things like Lamborghini, Pagani or even Koenigsegg.
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Report this Post11-30-2017 07:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

Before you trash the C4 too much , yes it pales today but it was a quantum leap over the C3 at the time.

Each Vette since has been a incremental improvment over the other. But even the c5-7 were produced in tough times with GM still going broke.

The Corvette people were not upset on the mid engine they were just worried about lost sales that would have doomed them. It was all about survival nothing more. They could have done the mid engine several times but passed on it.

The bottom line like John Schinella states Chevy sells more cars so Chevy gets more say in GM.

The F body died due to GM going broke and a platform that would not meet new crash standards.

The GTO failed on two fronts the car looked old because the styling down under was years behind ours. Lutz had no money for new body panels over what they did change.

The other issue was they targeted the market for the mid west and demand was stronger on the west coast. Dealers gouging did not help either.

But the real fact is the Corvette almost died on its own and odds are good GM would have killed the Fiero too since it had more enemies inside and much less heritage.

The bottom line was GM had marketing people in charge that sold cookies not car people.

If Lutz had arrived 10 years before he may have saved them product wise but management wise they were struggling yet. Lutz referred to them as the people who were the problem.


Sure the C4 Corvette was a quantum leap from the C3. But that's like saying your regular gym rat is a quantum leap from somebody who doesn't even workout. I don't even know why somebody would buy a C3 today or even a C4 if not for loving the looks or for the name. C4 ZR1 is fine. Lotus engine and all. But...

C5 is when the Corvette started to wake up.

But the problem with the Corvette has always been the same. Money. But it's not only that GM has no money. I'm sure GM has more money than Koenigsegg for example. Yet you can't even mention Corvette and Koenigsegg in the same sentence without making people confused. The money problem the Corvette has is different. The problem is even if GM would go all out and make a 918 or LaFerrari killer, they would never be able to sell it for the price Porsche and Ferrari can. This is why GM can't make a great Corvette. Because it will always be a budget sports car. It has to be. It's the only way it can exist.

Here in Europe, GM has tried to spin the Corvette into its own brand. So buyers wouldn't have the same Chevy bow-tie on their sports cars as others have on their cheap re-branded Daewoos, which are sold as Chevrolet here. But still, people are not stupid. Anybody who would buy a Corvette would know it's just a Chevy. So this is the Corvette's biggest enemy. The fact it's a GM product. So GM knowing they don't have the reputation to have a high end supercar they just don't make one. I'm very curious to see the mid engine C8. I wonder if they will go all out or it the car will still have low budget written all over it. My guess is it will still feel cheap.

Ford and even Chrysler somehow managed to overcome the whole made-by-a-low-budget-popular-car-brand stigma, with the Ford GT and Viper. But when it comes to Ford I'm not surprised. At least here in Europe it has always had a better image than GM. Ford is seen as cool despite being affordable. GM is seen as cheap and tacky. Prices for old Fords from the 80's have gone through the roof, while their GM counterparts are just old cheap cars.

With Chrysler I guess it worked because they went all out and made the Viper insane. But even though the car has a much better image around the world than any Corvette , you see Chrysler couldn't sustain it either and has discontinued it. I'm sure Ford loses money on every Ford GT they sell. But to them it's a halo car. I guess for GM not even going for a halo car would work. People have to take it seriously for it to be a halo car.

So I think the problem is not that GM can't make a supercar that would match or even beat the holy trinity. They are one of the largest manufactures in the world and have been around forever. The problem is that they can't justify making one and they know it. At least that they know. They know their place. Because even if they just didn't have the know-how, they could just import a bunch of people from Modena or Stuttgart and have them work for them. So this is not the problem and this is the reason we probably will never see a true Corvette supercar. A mid engine doesn't make a supercar or the Fiero and MR2 would be one.

I'm very curious about the C8.

[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 11-30-2017).]

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Report this Post11-30-2017 09:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by cvxjet:


Fact is, we were very lucky to even get the Fiero



Yep and even luckier to get an 88 at all.
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Report this Post11-30-2017 11:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think the new Vette (C7) has a very nice interior- even if they have installed one of those dumb-a** touch-screens....Most of the new GM cars are getting much better interiors....Go check out some of them....(And yes, most GM cars from a decade ago had interiors by "Rubbermaid"...which was pathetic)
You buy a performance car for.....PERFORMANCE! And the Vette gives you $2-400,000 performance for $6-90,000......And the technology they use is more innovative than almost anyones; Plastic leaf springs, magnetorheological shocks, Ceramic brake discs- All GM innovations which out-perform what Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche came up with on their own. (They are all now using most of that tech- bought from GM!)

Why do you absolutely need "Hand-stitched leather seats".........I actually like cloth more than leather.....and although I had to replace the driver-seat covers recently because of tears, they went 20 years before starting to tear.....(The Fiero interior was MUCH better than the other GM cars of the time- ESPECIALLY the Vette!)

A good example; Cheap, mass-produced cars like the Fiero use stamped steel A-arms for the suspension- and the Ferrari 308 uses Aluminum tubing which is lighter, prettier, etc....So go hit a curb and you can drive the Fiero home- but that tubular aluminum arm is much easier to BREAK.......(And yes...I know....You don't buy a car to hit a curb!....Jeez....)
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quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

At one time I was really hooked on the Countach.....Then I found out you could not see out of it, could not hardly breath in it on a hot day, and it is assembled like an expensive- but very low-quality- Kit car! The last straw for me was when they installed all of the tacked-on scoops, flairs, wings etc...It looked like an escapee from a J C Whitney catalog! Blech! If you pay $100,000-PLUS for a car, it should have fenders DESIGNED to fit the wide tires installed from the factory- not tack-ons!



 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:


I again agree. My favorite Countach is the LP400. Or the LP500 which had wide wheel arches but they were still rounded. With the LP 5000 and Anniversary it got too tacky for me too.


Damn guys!!! Us Countach builders are just sittin' here minding our own business. Soaking up every tidbit of Fiero history and trivia. Why ya gotta go hate on the Countach.
Can't you pick on something like the Aston Martin Cygnet? Just kidding...Learning a lot from both of you!

-Regards,
Van
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Report this Post11-30-2017 03:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I will change the direction to a more suitable target.....The new Civic R.....Holy crap-O-la! Usually, they J C Whitney the civic AFTER they buy it....Now Honda is doing it for them....Maybe they have found that most young kids now can only play video games and text, so they figured they would save on people going to the ER with a screwdriver stuck in EACH ear!

I will say this about the Countach- the original design was spectacular.....And the car works pretty good...I have an issue of Classic & Sports car magazine(June 2000) from Europe, where they had famous race driver Derek Bell drive a bunch of old supercars, including the Pantera, the 959, BMW M1, the Bora, the Muira, the GT40, F40, Modena 360, McLaren F1 and the Countach.....He said the Countach worked surprisingly well.....

I wish I could copy and post all of the info from this issue....It was a terrific "Semi-comparison" test of a lot of older supercars....
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Originally posted by cvxjet:

I wish I could copy and post all of the info from this issue....It was a terrific "Semi-comparison" test of a lot of older supercars....


Dropbox Basic is free and I suspect would work well for this purpose.

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Report this Post12-01-2017 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Way too smart there, Hyper! Yes, I remember the time when they basically cancelled the new Vette......It's amazing what "pencil-pushing", limo-riding financial guys think about as far as cars are concerned....We WILL be consigned to riding in computer-controlled pods...soon or later.....Simply put, 75% of the drivers out there should not be allowed to play with matchbox cars- let alone drive anything!

Fact is, we were very lucky to even get the Fiero.....And right after the Fiero died, the RX7 , ZX and Supra went way up market.....The in-expensive 2 seat market flooded, and then died. Sadly, a lot of automotive decisions are made just because of money......Still, I have always been impressed with mass-produced cars that anyone can afford, vs super-expensive cars assembled out of "Un-obtainium"....A Ferrari 308 cost a bundle just to maintain, while a Fiero is far more comfortable and costs almost nothing to drive daily!

At one time I was really hooked on the Countach.....Then I found out you could not see out of it, could not hardly breath in it on a hot day, and it is assembled like an expensive- but very low-quality- Kit car! The last straw for me was when they installed all of the tacked-on scoops, flairs, wings etc...It looked like an escapee from a J C Whitney catalog! Blech! If you pay $100,000-PLUS for a car, it should have fenders DESIGNED to fit the wide tires installed from the factory- not tack-ons!



The Corvette and exotics have always had different ways of being built and marketed.

The Ferrari is sold in limited numbers st higher numbers to protect the branding and exclusivity of the model.
It is easier to do this as the profit per unit is high.

The. Corvette has had to do with less exclusivity and image but they have been able to build it into an icon. That is a level few product ever reach Apple I phone and Harley Davidson have.

Chevy has controlled cost to keep the volume us and the better investment of late has made a good car for the money a great car no matter the money.

Porsche went for the low end market in the 1980’s and went for volume and it did a lot of damage. They returned to higher prices and volume from SUV sales.

GM holds an advantage with sharing engines with the trucks and Camaro. It will be Interesting to see what the DOHC turbo engines land in. This kills a ton of cost.

The super car makers are now targeting the 150k to 180K. It will be more competitive for a higher end Corvette we may see. Word is the next up top engine will start at 850 HP and word is it was tested over 1000 HP.

This may be fun to watch.
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Report this Post12-01-2017 09:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Rn2016:


Sure the C4 Corvette was a quantum leap from the C3. But that's like saying your regular gym rat is a quantum leap from somebody who doesn't even workout. I don't even know why somebody would buy a C3 today or even a C4 if not for loving the looks or for the name. C4 ZR1 is fine. Lotus engine and all. But...

C5 is when the Corvette started to wake up.

But the problem with the Corvette has always been the same. Money. But it's not only that GM has no money. I'm sure GM has more money than Koenigsegg for example. Yet you can't even mention Corvette and Koenigsegg in the same sentence without making people confused. The money problem the Corvette has is different. The problem is even if GM would go all out and make a 918 or LaFerrari killer, they would never be able to sell it for the price Porsche and Ferrari can. This is why GM can't make a great Corvette. Because it will always be a budget sports car. It has to be. It's the only way it can exist.

Here in Europe, GM has tried to spin the Corvette into its own brand. So buyers wouldn't have the same Chevy bow-tie on their sports cars as others have on their cheap re-branded Daewoos, which are sold as Chevrolet here. But still, people are not stupid. Anybody who would buy a Corvette would know it's just a Chevy. So this is the Corvette's biggest enemy. The fact it's a GM product. So GM knowing they don't have the reputation to have a high end supercar they just don't make one. I'm very curious to see the mid engine C8. I wonder if they will go all out or it the car will still have low budget written all over it. My guess is it will still feel cheap.

Ford and even Chrysler somehow managed to overcome the whole made-by-a-low-budget-popular-car-brand stigma, with the Ford GT and Viper. But when it comes to Ford I'm not surprised. At least here in Europe it has always had a better image than GM. Ford is seen as cool despite being affordable. GM is seen as cheap and tacky. Prices for old Fords from the 80's have gone through the roof, while their GM counterparts are just old cheap cars.

With Chrysler I guess it worked because they went all out and made the Viper insane. But even though the car has a much better image around the world than any Corvette , you see Chrysler couldn't sustain it either and has discontinued it. I'm sure Ford loses money on every Ford GT they sell. But to them it's a halo car. I guess for GM not even going for a halo car would work. People have to take it seriously for it to be a halo car.

So I think the problem is not that GM can't make a supercar that would match or even beat the holy trinity. They are one of the largest manufactures in the world and have been around forever. The problem is that they can't justify making one and they know it. At least that they know. They know their place. Because even if they just didn't have the know-how, they could just import a bunch of people from Modena or Stuttgart and have them work for them. So this is not the problem and this is the reason we probably will never see a true Corvette supercar. A mid engine doesn't make a supercar or the Fiero and MR2 would be one.

I'm very curious about the C8.



The C styles all have their fans and prices make them cheap to buy and easy to make faster.

The. 5 is better than a C 4 but it was an incremental jump. Today prices on them are down as interest moved to the C7. Most of us hate the fat butt of the car.

I looked at a loaded mine not long ago that was show room new with ultra low miles and it sold for $17k. They are real bargains as long as you do not expect much return on the investment.

GM could build a supercar to challange the others but Why?

They have a formula that has worked for 65 years so if it is nor broke don’t fix it. Like Hsrley the Vtwin was out dated but it works for them now others are trying to copy.

Ford has done the GT but they will not make money and so few are built that most will never see one in person. Waste of time.

The high end models Like Ferrari can get away with these models due to image Chevy can not. But the image of the new C8 expected will give more PR and more profits than any super car.

Also watch as Audi, Mclaren and now even a Ferrari are looking to the 180k price range. They want to get closer to Corvette prices and volume but it is at much greater risk for them and their exclusive image Chevy does not need to worry about.

The image of Ford in Europe is due to the fact they have been there for nearly 100 years and built model specificcars. Ford is seen by Germans as a German brand. GM had Opel but not much else and during their dark years failed to do what was needed with Ooel or to establish the Chevy brand years ago.

The bottom line is there is more than one way to approach this segment but not all ways work for every brand. Each must chose their own path based on image and abilities.
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