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Fiero as a first car? by copperhens
Started on: 10-16-2016 08:42 PM
Replies: 50 (891 views)
Last post by: 2.5 on 10-31-2016 09:33 AM
copperhens
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Report this Post10-16-2016 08:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for copperhensClick Here to Email copperhensSend a Private Message to copperhensEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am quite interested in Fieros. I like how they look, the history, they're just neat! It seems a lot of people here have them as collecter cars. Would it make a good daily driver? And how about the winter?
Thanks!
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Report this Post10-16-2016 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by copperhens:

Would it make a good daily driver?


Unless you're a good mechanic, or have deep pockets, I'd say... Not really.

Remember, these are 30 year old cars.
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deloreanant
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Report this Post10-16-2016 09:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for deloreanantSend a Private Message to deloreanantEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Was my first car. Got it as a graduation present in the early 2000's. I've loved it ever since. As far as winter goes, it is a rear wheel drive car, so.......... be careful of the ice and snow. I drive mine in it, no problem, but I don't whip around turns in the winter like I do in the summer. As mentioned above, they are 30-year-old cars, so they do require lots of maintenance. If you don't know anything about car repair, a Fiero will be a great way to learn quickly. Good luck.
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Report this Post10-16-2016 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Napoleon_TaneriteSend a Private Message to Napoleon_TaneriteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Depends on what you're looking for in a typical first car. The Fiero is good in some regards, and terrible in others.

Good:
1. Relatively inexpensive to purchase (see point #1 under "bad" for the other side of this coin)
2. Relatively safe, even by modern standards
3. Relatively slow (especially the 4cyl versions)
4. Can make a great bonding experience for you to work with your child maintaining the car
5. Only seats one passenger (fewer bad influences on the driver)
6. Gas and insurance are fairly cheap for it

Bad
1. Can be unreliable. As said before, these cars are pushing 30 and will require regular attention to keep running. We're talking everything from cosmetic items such as paint and interior to major mechanical items like the engine and transmission, as well as critical safety items such as brakes and suspension. If you bought it cheap, be prepared to pay more on the back end on maintenance.
2. Not the coolest car out there (unless you're already into Fieros). While this may not seem too important, the less your child cares about the car, the less they may be inclined to take care of it.
3. Unlikely to increase in value no matter how much you put into it. Unless you go all out with a restoration, engine swap, paint, etc chances are you aren't going to get much more out of the car than your initial investment, so all the money you spend maintaining it will be money out the window. While this isn't unique for older cars, keep this in mind when you purchase a Fiero that "needs work" as most of them do.
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Gall757
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Report this Post10-16-2016 10:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you drive it in the winter in Michigan, don't expect it to last more than a few years......the salt will kill the sheet metal frame.
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Report this Post10-17-2016 12:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Twenty years ago, I would have said "go for it". But not nowadays. They're old enough that they need a complete frame-up restoration, if they haven't had one yet. Either that, or you get AAA and wind up using it a lot.
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Report this Post10-17-2016 06:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SteelSend a Private Message to SteelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd recommend a newer and more reliable first vehicle. Fiero's are fun but don't let the liw purchase prices fool you.. the repairs and upkeep add up very very quickly.. and they don't stop.

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Report this Post10-17-2016 07:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for trivetClick Here to Email trivetSend a Private Message to trivetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would say as a First Car/Daily Driver - No.

I've had a 25+ year old vehicle - in EXCELLENT condition to use as a daily driver, and it was a pain in the a**. Constant maintenance - something that would be a minor annoyance on my Fiero (my "extra" car, pleasure only) was a HUGE pain with the DD, because I couldn't just wait until I had the time or funds to fix - I had to fix it NOW, as I needed it to get to work. MUCH different than waiting until the weekend, and working on it for fun. HAVING to fix the car often is enough to make you hate the darn thing. I sold that car, bought a newer unit as my DD, and have enjoyed my Fiero even more ever since.

So while some here use their Fieros as daily drivers, most have them for a significant amount of time (and some since new) so they know the quirks, issues, and maintenance required to keep a 30 year old vehicle running reliably. But as a first car - no way. I would NEVER recommend anything this old as a first car/daily driver.

Does that mean it can't BE a daily driver - not at all. But you need to know the car, it's issues, and be able to fix them "on the fly". Or have a reliable back up vehicle ready. It's nothing against the Fiero, ANY 30 year old vehicle would not be a good choice. And as previously mentioned, Michigan winters will quickly kill the frame.

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Fiero 88
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Report this Post10-17-2016 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero 88Click Here to Email Fiero 88Send a Private Message to Fiero 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I drove my 88 as my first car, however that was in 1999 and it wasn't *that* old at that point in time. Was extremely reliable, though not so great in the winters. I remember having to flick the auto into N when coming to a stop on snow so the rear tires wouldn't just keep plowing the front end forward. They have many more years on them now and I know I wouldn't trust my stock '86 as a daily.

------------------
Past:
1988 base coupe sold
1984 base coupe rust
Present:
1986 SE 2m6

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Patrick
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Report this Post10-17-2016 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by trivet:

So while some here use their Fieros as daily drivers, most have them for a significant amount of time so they know the quirks, issues, and maintenance required to keep a 30 year old vehicle running reliably.


Yep, that description matches me pretty well.... and I've also got other vehicles to use if my main Fiero does require a "rest day" or two.
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Jonesy
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Report this Post10-17-2016 05:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JonesySend a Private Message to JonesyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got my 86 SE for my 16th birthday back in 93... Still have it and drive it today.

Of course they are a lot older now than back in 93, so as a 1st car? Unless you find a really really well taken care of one, otherwise, nah..
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Report this Post10-17-2016 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jason88NotchieClick Here to Email Jason88NotchieSend a Private Message to Jason88NotchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Meh. Winter driving a Fiero is not too bad if your are used to rear wheel drive cars. A month or so ago, I went to turn on to the interstate. Right hand turn. Rear wheels broke but I corrected pretty quickly and went on my way. Looked on the rear view mirror and I seen 3 cars with their front wheel drive just go straight off the road. Apparently oil got dumped on the road on that spot. I think rear wheel saved me on that aspect.

Oh yeah. The roads were wet that day as well.

[This message has been edited by Jason88Notchie (edited 10-17-2016).]

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Report this Post10-17-2016 05:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not a great first car....but once you get a reliable first car, then you definitely need a Fiero as your second car!!!
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Report this Post10-17-2016 07:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for liv4GodSend a Private Message to liv4GodEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fiero was my first car when I was 16 in 2010. I loved it! Since I enjoy working on cars and I knew I wanted to do that it was a perfect car, that I could work on even with my little knowledge at the time. I haven't had to do anything major to that one and still have it as my daily driver. I've put over 60k miles on it and drive it cross country 2-4 times a year. My second and third and fourth cars... Also Fieros. Yeah they are that great! I have had to do extensive work on some of the later ones, but it was expected when I purchased them.. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is, if you like cars and tinkering on them, a Fiero is a cool and fun choice for a first car, especially if you get one in decent condition. However if you don't want to get your hands dirty or just want to get in and drive without ever doing any work on it, then, No probably not the best option as a first car.
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Report this Post10-17-2016 07:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I ordered a Fiero SE in Sep '83, got it in May '84 and it's still a daily driver with 373,650 kilometers (232,175 miles) on it.
The first winter with the original 215/60 x 14 Goodyear Eagle GT tires, accelerating, turning and braking were an adventure in the snow. (Think toboggan...)
The next two winters with skinny tires were ok, but after that I didn't drive it in wet, salty, or snowy conditions to prolong its life.

Early in 2008 I looked for a spare in anticipation of the '84 suffering a breakdown due to age and found an '88 Formula with 5,200 kilometers (3,231 miles) on it.
Couldn't pass up a showroom condition Fiero, but it wasn't going to be a daily driver, so in 2011 I got an '86 in excellent structural condition that mostly needed cosmetic repairs.

I like the '84 because it still works. It's been down for repairs a couple of times, but the '86 shares daily duties so it picked up the slack.
I like the '86 because I did the rehab myself including replacing the engine with an '87 parts car engine.
I like the '88 Formula because it's still like new. All three are manual trans and pretty much stock.
All three are licensed, insured and used weekly but not in wet, salty road conditions or snowy weather.

So the moral of the story is get multiple Fieros if you can, but make sure at least one is driveable so you can enjoy it, and have a suitable alternate for winter.

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Report this Post10-17-2016 11:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ltlfrariClick Here to visit ltlfrari's HomePageClick Here to Email ltlfrariSend a Private Message to ltlfrariEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd say not!
At 30 plus years they are suffering the ravages of too many cheap skate owner.s.
Unless you buy from someone that values them then and has fixed all the problems (IE someone on here) there are going to a pain in the backside/hole in the wallet car.
As a second 'fun' car they are great (I love mine) but as a daily driver, not so much until you've invested a few grand to fix all the issues.

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Anything I might say is probably worth what you paid for it, so treat it accordingly!

Dave

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Report this Post10-18-2016 05:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for InTheLeadSend a Private Message to InTheLeadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Perhaps pick a different daily driver for now and see if you can pickup a Fiero for a summer vehicle? It's nice when someone shows genuine interest in the cars and I don't want to simply push you away, they're great little cars just older and they need their maintenance regularly as to not leave you stranded.. especially in a Michigan winter.
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Report this Post10-18-2016 08:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wouldn't have a problem driving mine daily. I wouldn't drive winters because I don't want it to rust. I'd say the 4 cylinder cars are more reliable and easier to work on than the 6s. They are old cars and you need to know how to maintain and repair. I don't trust repair shops to work on mine much. I also have back up car(s), but honestly they aren't any more reliable then the Fiero. The more you drive an old car the more you learn what it takes to keep it reliable. I hear people say they'd be afraid to drive their car to such and such show or cruise or event because its to far. Well, if they drive their Fiero often enough to find out if its reliable or needs maintenance, and then do that maintenance then they could. I couldn't own a car I was afraid to drive.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-18-2016).]

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Report this Post10-18-2016 08:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

2.5

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Member since May 2007
 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:

So the moral of the story is get multiple Fieros if you can, but make sure at least one is driveable so you can enjoy it, and have a suitable alternate for winter.



That just happens naturally
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copperhens
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Report this Post10-18-2016 08:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for copperhensClick Here to Email copperhensSend a Private Message to copperhensEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for all of the replies!
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Report this Post10-18-2016 09:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GalladeClick Here to Email GalladeSend a Private Message to GalladeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fiero is neat indeed. But something you should know:
Fiero's especially the v6 are known for needing up keep
on the 2.5 the oil pan drain sits low, if you & your friends are really big, and the roads are really bad, you might split the pan (I met a guy who did it)
the older ones have blind spots that you need to get used to
They have limited trunk space
there break calipers aren't known for being the best
The headlights aren't designed well
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Patrick
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Report this Post10-18-2016 09:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gallade:

the older ones have blind spots that you need to get used to


How are the "blind spots" with my '84 any different than those of my '88 Formula's?

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Report this Post10-19-2016 07:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for trivetClick Here to Email trivetSend a Private Message to trivetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gallade:
the older ones have blind spots

 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
How are the "blind spots" with my '84 any different than those of my '88 Formula's?


I think he's talking about the owners, not the cars

[This message has been edited by trivet (edited 10-19-2016).]

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Report this Post10-19-2016 09:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by trivet:


I think he's talking about the owners, not the cars



LOL
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Report this Post10-19-2016 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would never consider any 30 year old car as a daily driver. By that age a car would be just plain unreliable as too many things are worn and can go wrong. Today a Fiero is a collector/hobby car and not much more. Fun for a Sunday drive, to a cruise night or car show. They are great if driven this way!.

------------------
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Report this Post10-19-2016 07:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
HUH?

Lots if inaccurate information. Splitting pan????

If a fiero is properly maintained, it can be reliable and safe. Brakes need proper servicing, just like any old car.

It can be a daily driver... just depends upon the car and care.


 
quote
Originally posted by Gallade:

Fiero is neat indeed. But something you should know:
Fiero's especially the v6 are known for needing up keep
on the 2.5 the oil pan drain sits low, if you & your friends are really big, and the roads are really bad, you might split the pan (I met a guy who did it)
the older ones have blind spots that you need to get used to
They have limited trunk space
there break calipers aren't known for being the best
The headlights aren't designed well


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Report this Post10-20-2016 07:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jonrevClick Here to visit jonrev's HomePageClick Here to Email jonrevSend a Private Message to jonrevEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I bought mine nine years ago as my first car. I got a good-looking basket case... teenage-me learned that collector cars are nice to work on at your own leisure, but a nightmare when your only means of transportation is down, and you need it running immediately so you can get to your job to work off the repair costs. For me, it was a looong four(ish) years before I could get ahead enough to buy a brand-new car, then play catch-up on the Fiero.

Do I regret it? Absolutely not. Would I recommend it, now? Not a chance UNLESS:
-you buy from another enthusiast (better chance of them having done major work, already - but be prepared to spend more up front)
-you buy out of region (further south or west, the better - rust sucks)
-you have a backup car, along with plenty of downtime and cash to work on/have someone work on it

As for the winter: if you remember that blizzard in 2011 that pretty much shut Chicago down, I drove my Fiero in the immediate aftermath of that just fine. I never did, but some throw sandbags in the trunk and front compartment to increase weight on the tires (better traction).

------------------

[jonrevProjects] | HAVE YOU SEEN ME?

[This message has been edited by jonrev (edited 10-20-2016).]

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Report this Post10-21-2016 11:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Do it! I didn't know a thing about cars but I bought my 86 Fiero SE when I was 15 for $500. Spent a year fixing her up from a repair manual and YouTube and it was my daily for a few years... in winter they rock btw... it was cool nobody new what it was. Everyone liked it. Get the V6 only. The manuals are a blast btw. But I had an auto. It really wasn't to bad.

------------------
1987 Fiero GTX 3800 Turbo... My Build, ST3 Cam, Lowered, Wheels, and pics enjoy!http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089483.html

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Report this Post10-22-2016 02:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

HUH?

Lots if inaccurate information. Splitting pan????

If a fiero is properly maintained, it can be reliable and safe. Brakes need proper servicing, just like any old car.

It can be a daily driver... just depends upon the car and care.




I think you missed the point... the OP is asking about a Fiero as a first car...which implies daily driver. That is a very different scenario from someone that has owned and maintained Fieros for 30 years and continues to drive it daily.

I have a yard full of Fieros and when my son tuned 16 I gave him my newest car which was not a Fiero. So I think you know my answer to the question. Young drivers have enough to worry about so whether or not the car will break down should not be added to the list.
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Report this Post10-24-2016 01:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mickey_MooseClick Here to visit Mickey_Moose's HomePageClick Here to Email Mickey_MooseSend a Private Message to Mickey_MooseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As a "newbie" - no I would not recommend it as a first car that you need to depend on.

That being said, I drove my 4.9l 86 daily for 3 solid years without much hiccup (granted it had a ground up rebuild too) - including all through the Canadian winter (one year we had a few weeks of below -30°C (-22°F)). First winter was on "all-season" tires, but after that was with winter tires, but never had really issues (way better on the winter tires). But then I also grew up driving rear drive sports cars (and 1/2 ton trucks) - didn't actually own a 4 wheel drive vehicle until 2005. I wouldn't say they are any worse than any other vehicle on ice, you just need to adjust your driving attitude and not take that corner at 60mph in the winter - there is nothing wrong with using them in the winter if you know how to handle them.

Even drove our 88GT daily (all year) for about 5 years as it was our only vehicle at the time, but that was back in the 90's.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 10-24-2016).]

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Report this Post10-24-2016 01:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yup, didn't miss that. Any car older than 10 years will need to be looked at. The Fiero is no more or less reliable than any 10 year old car.

As a young driver... cars break down... it is pretty much a fact of life, unless they buy a honda or something newer.
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


I think you missed the point... the OP is asking about a Fiero as a first car...which implies daily driver. That is a very different scenario from someone that has owned and maintained Fieros for 30 years and continues to drive it daily.

I have a yard full of Fieros and when my son tuned 16 I gave him my newest car which was not a Fiero. So I think you know my answer to the question. Young drivers have enough to worry about so whether or not the car will break down should not be added to the list.


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Report this Post10-24-2016 02:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

Any car older than 10 years will need to be looked at. The Fiero is no more or less reliable than any 10 year old car.



I agree, except 30 years, not 10
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Report this Post10-24-2016 07:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I once bought a brand new Cavalier Z24. It was in the shop 16 times in the first nine months....at which time I got rid of it. So much for a reliable daily driver.

Once I got my Fiero on the road, I drove it for about the same length of time and it never broke down.
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Patrick
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Report this Post10-24-2016 07:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Neils88:

I once bought a brand new Cavalier Z24. It was in the shop 16 times in the first nine months...


My neighbor behind me bought a brand new convertible Mustang a year ago. It seems at least once a month I see him driving a "courtesy" car from the Ford dealer. I suggested he get himself a more reliable car... like maybe one of my Fieros.
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jscott1
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Report this Post10-24-2016 08:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Neils88:

I once bought a brand new Cavalier Z24. It was in the shop 16 times in the first nine months....at which time I got rid of it. So much for a reliable daily driver.

Once I got my Fiero on the road, I drove it for about the same length of time and it never broke down.


C'mon man...the early 2000s Pre-bankruptcy GM? The Cavalier Z24 was not exactly known for it's reliability.

And at least that new Mustang is under warranty.

A 30 year old car makes a horrible first car daily driver unless a person is very handy with tools and has backup transportation.
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David Hambleton
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Report this Post10-24-2016 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by jscott1:And at least that new Mustang is under warranty.


Reliability rarely improves after the warranty expires.

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olejoedad
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Report this Post10-24-2016 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In a word......

NO!!!!!

Where in Michigan?
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Neils88
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Report this Post10-24-2016 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:

C'mon man...the early 2000s Pre-bankruptcy GM? The Cavalier Z24 was not exactly known for it's reliability.

And at least that new Mustang is under warranty.



The car was brand new. Even pre-2000's...no new car should have been in shop 16 times in nine months! I figured it was built on the Friday afternoon before a long weekend. I traded it in for a new 1994 Hyundai Elantra. Owned that seven years without a single breakdown.

With respect to the Fiero....great car, as long as you have a reliable backup available....

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fieroguru
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Report this Post10-24-2016 09:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:
In a word......

NO!!!!!


X2...

It takes a lot of time, effort, cost, frustration, and perseverance to make a 30+ year old car daily driver reliable, and that's when you know exactly what you are doing.

I do daily drive my Fiero when there isn't snow/salt on the road... (36K miles in last 3 years), but it took a lot to get it there.
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Patrick
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Report this Post10-24-2016 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Neils88:

I traded it in for a new 1994 Hyundai Elantra. Owned that seven years without a single breakdown.


Hey Neil, you've got good taste in cars... Fieros and the '94 Elantra. I bought a used one 11 years ago (found my first PFF reference to it Here)... and it's still going strong.
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