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HP Torque and Displacement by bonzo
Started on: 06-30-2016 10:08 PM
Replies: 76 (918 views)
Last post by: IanT720 on 07-19-2016 09:09 AM
dobey
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Report this Post07-04-2016 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

Dobey Hp is the measurement of work being done by the torque as torque alone means nothing i can hang a 100 LB weight off one end of a 10 foot long horizontally mounted poll and the other end attached to a wall now there is 1000 ftlbs of torque being applied to the wall side but no work is being done so you really need to take both numbers and factor what is the best gear ratio tire size ect to find the gear ratio for optimal acceleration in a 1/4 mile or top end or street driving


I know what HP is. Knowing it doesn't change the irrelevance of it; especially in this thread.
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Report this Post07-04-2016 03:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
what i was trying say is you can have 500 ftlbs of torque and 175 hp from an engine but it wont be a good drag race engine but it would be pretty good at towing so to me both numbers matter and for the OP yes you can make a 6L 4 cyl with the same power as a 6L 6 or 8 cyl but like sated before the parts will be under more stress on the 4 cyl . now lets put some numbers out to show what i am talking about 500ftlbs of torque x 3000 rpm / 5252 =285 HP not a great drag race engine but good for towing

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 07-04-2016).]

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Report this Post07-04-2016 03:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

what i was trying say is you can have 500 ftlbs of torque and 175 hp from an engine but it wont be a good drag race engine but it would be pretty good at towing so to me both numbers matter and for the OP yes you can make a 6L 4 cyl with the same power as a 6L 6 or 8 cyl but like sated before the parts will be under more stress on the 4 cyl


Well, the peak number isn't that important either. Peak numbers are good for advertising, and in specific market segments an OK indicator of how a car will perform daily, but doesn't tell you much about the engine itself, as the only data point, without any outside context.

The torque curve is what tells you what the gearing and tires should be like, based on the weight, frontal area, and coefficient of drag of the vehicle, whether it's towing or not, and all the other goals one has for the vehicle. Yeah, a 6L Cummins turbo diesel in a Fiero would be unique, but it would suck to drive, being speed governed to 3000 RPM. Likewise, a 2L turbo petrol engine can be fun in a Fiero, but would be horrible in a Ram 2500 HD.

The 6.7 Cummins has 17.3:1 compression ratio, and the pistons, rod, and crank are fairly heavy. Longer stroke and heavier components mean you're more likely to make more torque, but at a lower RPM, because you're moving the moment of inertia (making the stick that weight is hanging off of, longer), and increasing the mass being moved (more weight hanging off the end of that stick). Because the compression ratio is much higher, and the displacement is much larger, it makes a lot more torque, but the engine is speed governed to 3000 RPM.

A 2.0L petrol engine will have a much lower compression ratio, and much lighter components with a shorter stroke. So it can spin much faster, and peak torque is pushed out to a much higher RPM.

Just knowing the peak numbers, and their RPM isn't enough to really claim that one engine is better than another, especially when they are installed in wildly different vehicles. And when discussing the "power band" of an engine, it's the torque curve being discussed, not the HP.
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Report this Post07-04-2016 03:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was actully Lauging out loud when I saw this topic, I promissed myself I would not post, but dang it, these topics are always great for a few good laughs.

Lets his some real world facts, not just paper book facts.

The fastest cars in the world are 8, 10,12, even 16 cylnders and BOOSTED usually with big Turbo's.

The slowest most fuel efficient GAS powered vehicles are 1 or 2 cylnder motors.

The Veyron SS is IIRC 1200hp and now holds the record at 267mph.

I wonder why I can't think of a single car anywhere close to the Veyrons size and weight going close to that speed.


Come on guys, we all acknowledge there are some high hp 4cly cars but in REAL WORLD situations, not just bench racing numbers with a calculator, bigger cubic inch engines are better suited to go fast.

I really wish they had a better way to rate engines, Horsepower was a mathematical calculation to rate steam tractors. Its not exactly fair to use that in boosted modern multi valve engines with variable cam phasing.

They need to find a way to measure an engines power and torque combined and averaged over a given something..........

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Report this Post07-04-2016 03:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

What is, in particular, funny about your last statement is your assertion about pushrod vs. (I assume) Ford mod motors. Because the mod motor makes way more hp/l than the pushrods and Mustangs typically match Camaros in terms of specific output. Yet, despite similar horsepower numbers the Camaros typically beat the Mustang, as you pointed out earlier. Weird that in one moment you reject the idea of hp being not useful, and then in another give a clear, specific example of how hp is not a very useful measurement. :lol:




I'm not sure what you are saying here- The simple fact is that the bigger, pushrod 2V motor out-accelerates the 4V DOHC motor.....AND....Gets much better fuel economy.....So, where is the terrific benefits of the 4V design?.....And where is the benefit of HP/L?....What does that number actually get you? What prize do you win for a better HP/L? The LT engine is lighter, smaller, cheaper and better at MPG than the Ford 4V engines.

HP is exactly what the engine puts to the ground to accelerate your car.....You can measure HP at any rpm, and that number will exactly correlate to the "G" that your car pulls in accelerating. If you have 100 hp, your car will accelerate exactly the same, whether it is at 2000 rpm or 6000 rpm.

In the area where I live, most of the Tonda guys have switched over to Vettes, GTOs, Camaros, etc.....Except a few who have the 10" exhaust pipe on their 4-pop cars....

And, to answer the OP, Yes you can get the same power out of smaller displacement- If you want it to survive for any length of time, you could make the engine out of un-obtainium and then charge 1 mil a piece for it.....

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Report this Post07-04-2016 04:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
the 500 ftlbs of torque on my example would not be the peak torque if it where a diesel engine its peak torque would happen more like at 1500 it is a matter of the torque curve and how high the engine could rev with out the torque falling off so bad that HP ends up suffering in other words to me you want as much torque as you can get from down low to as high in the rpm in other words so therefor i would want an engine that can produce over 300 ftlbs of torque from 2000 rpm to 5500 rpm with a peak torque of 400ftlbs over a engine that produces peak of 500 ftlbs of torque and 350 ftlbs of torque from 1500 to 3500 rpm for racing but for towing i would want the second engine.
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Report this Post07-04-2016 04:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Capt Fiero:
I was actully Lauging out loud when I saw this topic, I promissed myself I would not post, but dang it, these topics are always great for a few good laughs.

Lets his some real world facts, not just paper book facts.

The fastest cars in the world are 8, 10,12, even 16 cylnders and BOOSTED usually with big Turbo's.

The slowest most fuel efficient GAS powered vehicles are 1 or 2 cylnder motors.

The Veyron SS is IIRC 1200hp and now holds the record at 267mph.

I wonder why I can't think of a single car anywhere close to the Veyrons size and weight going close to that speed.

Come on guys, we all acknowledge there are some high hp 4cly cars but in REAL WORLD situations, not just bench racing numbers with a calculator, bigger cubic inch engines are better suited to go fast.


Are you talking about fast, or quick? Fast is top speed, and aerodynamics and suspension have much more importance than number of cylinders and engine displacement. Quick is how long it takes to get to the top speed. Yes, the Veyron has a crazy top speed, but it takes a fair distance to get there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...rlatives#Performance

The Veyron is the "fastest" turbo production car at 268 MPH top speed. But the Veyron isn't as quick as "slower" cars, with the Porsche 918 having a 2.2 second 0-62 MPH time, and even the Koenigsegg One:1 is quicker to 186 MPH. The Hennessy Venom GT has a higher top speed, but not enough cars to qualify as a "production car." The Veryon's top speed is also lower for the production car, at 258 MPH, as the record run was done with the limiter removed.

But, also, in "the real world," you will never be driving anywhere remotely near that fast. There's a lot more to making a car quick, or fast, than just the engine's displacement. What about the Ariel Atom 500? 3.0L V8 that makes 500 HP and it does 0-60 MPH in 2.3 seconds. Or even the Atom 3.5R which used the Honda K20 engine with a supercharger, and did 0-60 in 2.6 seconds.
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Report this Post07-04-2016 04:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are you still around Bonzo? I took your question to be more theoretical than 'real-world'.....
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Report this Post07-04-2016 04:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:
HP is exactly what the engine puts to the ground to accelerate your car.....You can measure HP at any rpm, and that number will exactly correlate to the "G" that your car pulls in accelerating. If you have 100 hp, your car will accelerate exactly the same, whether it is at 2000 rpm or 6000 rpm.


Uh, what?

My Fiero GT has about 140 HP with the 2.8. My Cruze Eco has about 140 HP with a 1.4l turbo 4. They most certainly do not accelerate anything like each other at all.

Likewise, my Avalanche with 325 HP sure as hell doesn't accelerate anything at all like a C5 Corvette with an LS1.

Also, you don't "measure HP." You measure torque, and calculate HP.
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Report this Post07-04-2016 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:
I'm not sure what you are saying here- The simple fact is that the bigger, pushrod 2V motor out-accelerates the 4V DOHC motor.....AND....Gets much better fuel economy.....So, where is the terrific benefits of the 4V design?.....And where is the benefit of HP/L?....What does that number actually get you? What prize do you win for a better HP/L? The LT engine is lighter, smaller, cheaper and better at MPG than the Ford 4V engines.


I know! And that's what so great about it!
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Report this Post07-04-2016 04:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
I know! And that's what so great about it!


I just love when people say X engine is better than Y engine, by comparing the production cars they come in, rather than the engines themselves. It's so scientific that way.
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Report this Post07-04-2016 05:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Weight of the vehicle is part of the calculation of how HP accelerates your vehicle. And the HP curve is what accelerates your vehicle, not the peak.....You could have 2000 hp at 4000 rpm, but zero on either side of 4000...That would be a useless engine except as a generator or some such....You need the power over a range, and the faster you make an engine turn, the narrower the power band....this isn't rocket science...Engine builders can tell you all of this. Hotter cams and bigger ports tend to lose efficiency at low RPMs.....The drop off in performance can be best illustrated in the S2000...Rev it to 8000 and you can get a 0-60 of 5.5 seconds, but shift it at 4000 and it drops to 11 seconds...NO power down low- it's all concentrated at the top few thousand RPMs. That engine is horrendously un-flexible....Like a light switch, it is either on or dead.

The silly twists and turns some of you make to keep an argument going are just that....silly. Dobey, especially- You are exactly the person that never learns anything because you are too busy telling everyone that they don't know anything- It's kind of pathological with you....
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Report this Post07-04-2016 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Weight of the vehicle is part of the calculation of how HP accelerates your vehicle. And the HP curve is what accelerates your vehicle, not the peak.....You could have 2000 hp at 4000 rpm, but zero on either side of 4000...That would be a useless engine except as a generator or some such....You need the power over a range, and the faster you make an engine turn, the narrower the power band....this isn't rocket science...Engine builders can tell you all of this. Hotter cams and bigger ports tend to lose efficiency at low RPMs.....The drop off in performance can be best illustrated in the S2000...Rev it to 8000 and you can get a 0-60 of 5.5 seconds, but shift it at 4000 and it drops to 11 seconds...NO power down low- it's all concentrated at the top few thousand RPMs. That engine is horrendously un-flexible....Like a light switch, it is either on or dead.

The silly twists and turns some of you make to keep an argument going are just that....silly. Dobey, especially- You are exactly the person that never learns anything because you are too busy telling everyone that they don't know anything- It's kind of pathological with you....


You're the only one making "twists and turns" with your argument here, pal. How about instead of making yet more personal attacks against me, you try to make a statement and stick to it, or accept that you are wrong when you are?

Torque + gearing vs weight + friction + drag is what accelerates a vehicle. To accelerate, you need to apply enough torque to overcome whatever is preventing you from moving forward. In the case of a vehicle, it's fairly basic physics.
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Report this Post07-04-2016 06:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

Also, you don't "measure HP." You measure torque, and calculate HP.


Almost right you measure torque at a given rpm as torque x 0 rpm divided by 5252 = zero HP work done as i torque the front damper bolt there is no HP but there still is torque
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Report this Post07-04-2016 06:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:
Almost right you measure torque at a given rpm as torque x 0 rpm divided by 5252 = zero HP work done as i torque the front damper bolt there is no HP but there still is torque


But you must move the wrench for the torque to be applied to the bolt, and it is not instantaneous. However, the RPM of you rotating the wrench is so low, that the resulting HP is is insignificant, but it is not 0.

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Report this Post07-04-2016 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
LOL you kill me there is zero HP due to zero work performed so when i am pulling on the wrench and it is not moving but 150 ftlbs of toque is being applied there is HP i say no no no and you need revolution per minute 0 of that means zero HP
horsepower is equal to the power needed to lift 550 pounds one foot in one second

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 07-04-2016).]

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Report this Post07-04-2016 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Little story; I had a friend/neighbor who was very argumentative- We took our GFs to a Mex' restaurant....He ordered the Fajita Burrito and I ordered the Beef Fajitas...When they came he grabbed mine and proceeded to argue that the Fajita burrito looked like my Fajita platter....after 5 minutes he jumped up and ran off- I was a little worried because I knew he had run off before and I had the Fiero(2 seats) so how was I going to get both ladies home? Anyway, he comes running back with a menu and continues to argue using the menu. I finally called a waiter over and asked him which was which.......That finally solved the argument.

At the time, he didn't notice, but both of our GFs were rolling their eyes at this whole stupid argument.....

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Report this Post07-04-2016 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

LOL you kill me there is zero HP due to zero work performed so when i am pulling on the wrench and it is not moving but 150 ftlbs of toque is being applied there is HP i say no no no and you need revolution per minute 0 of that means zero HP
horsepower is equal to the power needed to lift 550 pounds one foot in one second



So if you didn't perform any work, how was 150 ft-lbs of torque applied to the bolt?
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Report this Post07-04-2016 10:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
umm torque is twisting force that may cause rotation not work . work To a physicist, only parts of it are. Work is done when a force that is applied to an object moves that object. The work is calculated by multiplying the force by the amount of movement of an object (W = F * d . with that said i am done

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 07-04-2016).]

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quote
Originally posted by bonzo:

I showed my Dad some articles of these Tuner cars getting 600+ hp and torque. He was amazed at the power they're getting out of these 4 bangers.
My Dad has a Ram 2500 with a 6.7l Cummins, runs a tuner, that has about 400+hp and 800+ torque. Last Sat. were were towing a 26' boat, both the truck and boat had full tanks of gas and water. We had 5 people in the truck plus coolers etc. Fully loaded. We came up to a very steep and long bridge doing about 55 mph. My dad said lets see what this Baby will do. When we were at the top of the bridge we had sped up to 75 mph. He said now let me see one of those 4 bangers do that. I didn't know what to say. Could a 4 banger boasting that much hp and torque do that?


And if compared to the 4 bangers he is talking about, WITHOUT anyone towing anything, I bet his Ram probably wouldn't be much faster up the hill, but that little 4 banger would just pass him by.


 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

If you are so enamored of the 4V DOHC engines, why don't you put one of them in your Fiero?


I know this wasn't ment at me, but I did do just that.
Also Fords do put 4 bangers in their trucks and they are proven to tow well, the ecoboost engines.

It is hard to compare boosted engines, as boost numbers, flow numbers, types of turbo systems etc, vary WAY too much.

It really comes down to the gearing, if you had enough gears a duke could tow the moon. As gears multiply torque.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 07-04-2016).]

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Report this Post07-04-2016 11:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sardony, I don't really have a true bias here- I suspect that the 4V fours would be a great engine for a Fiero- Especially one stripped down like mine(2640 w/3.4)......I like to see different engines in there- always curious to see how people solve all the (Many) problems that crop up with engine swaps that basically go in the middle of a car. My personal fav would be a BOP 3.5 V8- light and you can easily pull 200+ out of them. Also, I really would be curious to see one of those SHO V8s in there.

I was originally in awe of 4V engines, but thought they were too expensive- At least V8 engines- for mass produced cars like the Mustang...When Ford did it I was surprised...But nothing can compare to my surprise at GM bring the LS PR engine out in 97- I literally thought, "GM is going to get their azzes handed to them"- Then the road tests showed that the F-bodies were quicker and got better MPG than the Cobra Mustang. I did a bunch of research and talked to some engine builders and discovered that the 2V engines have a secret weapon- Quench. I used this knowledge to build my Jet boat engine- The myth; "Jet boats are fuel hogs!!!"....The truth; After careful testing, I am getting better fuel efficiency than the DD ski boats and my boat can pull your arms off and that is with a 1970s 460 BB. I try to keep an open mind- I see stuff that contradicts the "Common knowledge" that is out there all the time. I do stuff that people tell me won't work- But I have a substantial number of those people that have stopped saying that. I try to work with facts...and test my ideas.

Again, I would enjoy seeing your car and would be fascinated by your conversion...I just don't like being attacked by a troll....
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Report this Post07-05-2016 02:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The GM Quad4 engine is not a standard DOHC like the crap V-Tecs, the vtecs only have like 111 TQ even though they have up to 190 HP,
The Quad4s have 180-190 HP depending on year/options and down low torque of 160+ (Stock)
GM put EVERY bit of tech they had at the time into the engine, it was the highest HP per L engine made for 20 years except one Ferrari and I think a Mercedes, it took direct injection and vari cam timing to edge it out. With all the porting I have done, mine should easy make 200+HP and 180+ TQ not bad for a N/A 4 banger huh.?.?

BTW my build on it is in my sig

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined '87 Duke (Sold)
'87 Quad 4 H.O.
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
^^^^ Now in the Construction Zone^^^^
Las Vegas Fiero Club Parts/Sales/Service/Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada
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Report this Post07-05-2016 10:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
The GM Quad4 engine is not a standard DOHC like the crap V-Tecs, the vtecs only have like 111 TQ even though they have up to 190 HP,
The Quad4s have 180-190 HP depending on year/options and down low torque of 160+ (Stock)
GM put EVERY bit of tech they had at the time into the engine, it was the highest HP per L engine made for 20 years except one Ferrari and I think a Mercedes, it took direct injection and vari cam timing to edge it out. With all the porting I have done, mine should easy make 200+HP and 180+ TQ not bad for a N/A 4 banger huh.?.?

BTW my build on it is in my sig


Was that a joke? The Q4 was certainly not the highest HP/L made for 20 years. Honda's B16A engine in 1989 was higher HP/L already, than any Q4 was. The B16 only has 111 lbs-ft of torque, because it's only 1.6L, compared to the 2.3L Q4. The Q4 might have been GM's highest specific output N/A engine, but certainly not the highest of all manufacturers.

LG0 (HO Q4): ~80 HP/L
W41 (190HP Q4): ~84 HP/L

B16A: ~99 HP/L
B16B: ~116 HP/L
B16A3/B16A3: 100 HP/L
B18C (ITR): ~109 HP/L

And Honda's 2.2/2.3L engines of the 90s and early 00s, made more power and torque, than GM's Q4 did:

H22A: 217 HP, 164 lb-ft (~99 HP/L)
H23A VTEC: 197 HP, 163 lb-ft (~90 HP/L)

Then came the F20C in the S2000, which makes 240 HP, and 125 HP/L. None of these engines have direct injection, VTEC is technically "variable" cam timing, but only just barely so.
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Report this Post07-05-2016 10:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by engine man:
umm torque is twisting force that may cause rotation not work . work To a physicist, only parts of it are. Work is done when a force that is applied to an object moves that object. The work is calculated by multiplying the force by the amount of movement of an object (W = F * d . with that said i am done


Exactly. You applied a force to the wrench, and moved it a distance. Therefore work was done, but the output is so minute when you are calculating it in terms of HP, that it is not generally worth mentioning. If an opposing force were not preventing you from fully rotating the engine, if you continued applying that force to the wrench, it would have performed a full rotation in some amount of time, which could be described in RPM, even if it was less than 1. The force applied, times the rotational speed, divided by 5252 will be the "work" you did, in HP. However, since you had an opposing force in place to prevent rotation of the crankshaft, only the crank bolt is rotated, and thus now torqued to spec; however, you still performed said work in doing so, and it is expressible in terms of HP, assuming the requisite variables are known.

You expended energy to move a wrench, which in turn multiplied the force on the bolt, which rotated. That's called work; to us physicist types.
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Report this Post07-05-2016 10:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by engine man:

what i was trying say is you can have 500 ftlbs of torque and 175 hp from an engine but it wont be a good drag race engine but it would be pretty good at towing so to me both numbers matter and for the OP yes you can make a 6L 4 cyl with the same power as a 6L 6 or 8 cyl but like sated before the parts will be under more stress on the 4 cyl . now lets put some numbers out to show what i am talking about 500ftlbs of torque x 3000 rpm / 5252 =285 HP not a great drag race engine but good for towing



Seems like that would depend on gears.
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Report this Post07-05-2016 10:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

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Originally posted by fieroguru:

The fundamental issues are heat management and the duration of the power event. To get 500 hp/tq you will generate a lot of combustion heat. If your engine is physically smaller and you are using some type of power adder to overcome the reduced displacement, you still have to deal with the same level of heat, but have fewer cylinders, and less surface area within the cylinders to spread the heat load that the internal components will be exposed to.

When the engine can't properly deal with the heat, detonation can occur, spark plug electrodes can melt, pistons can melt, rings can expand until the ends touch which binds them in their bores and breaks the ring lands, etc. The longer the power event, the more heat the components in the cylinder will be exposed to, which can be an issue. An engine could dyno 800 hp/tq, and make a few sub 10 second passes at the track. During these events the engine only sees the peak load for a handful seconds, however, if you continue the peak load event even longer (like a standing mile event or an extended racing loads) you will add even more heat which may or may not be an issue as it all depends on what conditions the engine was designed to withstand.

Heat management is one of the reasons diesel engines have the rings further from the top of the piston (to better isolate them from the combustion temps) than gas engines. Its also the reason for oil squirters on the back sides of pistons on several current factory supercharged/turbocharged engines as well as the specialized ceramic coatings available for pistons.

So back to the original question... yes a smaller 4cyl (with some type of forced induction) could accomplish the same specific task or power event as the inline 6 diesel... but its internal components will be significantly more stressed and would require a purpose built engine and components to do so.



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Report this Post07-05-2016 10:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by dobey:


Exactly. You applied a force to the wrench, and moved it a distance.


You sure are one dense mother f'r.

[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 07-19-2016).]

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Report this Post07-05-2016 11:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So in all of modern day racing i know of zero low hp low rpm engines with high torque even the diesel drag race guys are turning more rpm for more power and work done i just read that they are turning those diesel at over 6000 rpm
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Report this Post07-05-2016 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by dobey:- to us physicist types.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dobey- Are you trying to act cartoonishly arrogant? Holy crap but you are ridiculous.....You do know that it is "Righty tighty lefty loosey", Right? No wonder your car project has been going on for 5 years........

Arguing with Dobey is like punching one of those inflatable punch-clowns- it keeps coming back, but there really isn't anything there......
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Report this Post07-05-2016 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by cvxjet:I don't have scientific leg to stand on, so I'm going to post some insults.


Spot on old chap, spot on.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 07-05-2016).]

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Report this Post07-05-2016 04:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by thesameguy:
I'm a little teapot- Here's my spout! It's so small that I have to pout!


Wow....Sorry about your......disability....
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Report this Post07-06-2016 12:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So good. So very, very good.
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Report this Post07-06-2016 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You both win.Topic over?

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Report this Post07-08-2016 10:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bonzoClick Here to Email bonzoSend a Private Message to bonzoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Deduction.
The little 4 Banger with the same HP and torque could get the job done, but would explode after a few runs. The 6.7L turbo diesel could do it for years.
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Report this Post07-09-2016 10:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by bonzo:

Deduction.
The little 4 Banger with the same HP and torque could get the job done, but would explode after a few runs. The 6.7L turbo diesel could do it for years.


True. Engine designers try to keep them light for use in small cars.....but a robust 4 cylinder engine could be built with the same durability as the diesel......except for a few farm tractors, nobody has done it for decades.....there are some examples back in the 1905 to 1915 era of big displacement 4 cylinder car engines. If you ever get a chance to hear one run, you won't forget it....

http://cargeekjournal.com/f...e-articles/acme-car/

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 07-09-2016).]

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Report this Post07-19-2016 07:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I remember an episode of Top Gear and Hammond had a Mitsubishi Mirage hatch with 700hp with playstations subs etc. Against a 100 HP Austin Bugeye sprite
The Austin won a hill climb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOxHV6QfJkg
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Report this Post07-19-2016 09:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Christ guys, Torque is always torque. Same meaning on every engine. Horsepower is RPM dependent. Two engines making the same peak HP, one might make it at 9k but the other at 5k. The 5k engine is more powerful because it's producing more power in a shorter time span. Also a physically larger engine will make more reliable power than a smaller one. And typically larger engines have more torque or atleast more torque at a lower rpm than a smaller one. This means you get moving sooner. This is the simplest you can get.

Small engines don't have torque. They make up for it by spinning fast effectively multiplying the torque figure and making high HP

Big engines have lots of torque. They spin slow because they can and still make good hp.
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